Labor for usage

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
Would you A&P-IAs maintain a very nice well equipped C-177 for the use of it for 10 hours per year?

That is, do the daily routine maintenance and the annual. Parts are on the owner's CC you are just the labor.

This A/C is not in a rental service. (Private owner operator not for hire)
 
Depends on if you want a Cardinal to fly...
Is the owner limiting you to 10 hours a year or is that all you see yourself flying it.
If you maintain and annual it you should be able to fly it anytime the owner isn't using it.
 
Tom-D said:
Would you A&P-IAs maintain a very nice well equipped C-177 for the use of it for 10 hours per year?

That is, do the daily routine maintenance and the annual. Parts are on the owner's CC you are just the labor.

This A/C is not in a rental service. (Private owner operator not for hire)
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Ten hours a year seems like a great deal..... for the airplane owner.
 
PaulS said:
Ten hours a year seems like a great deal..... for the airplane owner.
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I flew 6 hours last year,, maybe If I had an aircraft like this deal, I'd fly more but not much.
 
Tom-D said:
I flew 6 hours last year,, maybe If I had an aircraft like this deal, I'd fly more but not much.
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I wouldn't feel safe Tom, with 6 hours in a year, tell him 30 and fly 5 touch and goes every two weeks.
 
Airplane owner looks like he/she is looking for a more economical way to maintain the plane and annual it. You look like you might fly only a few hours a year, which is expensive if done in your own airplane.

A "fair deal" is one where both parties walk away satisfied with the outcome. If you want to fly a few hours a year in a Cardinal, go make a fair deal. Doesn't matter what our opinion is quite frankly.
 
I would say more like "up to 50hrs per year" but dry rate. Let's face it, the basic dry operating costs of a C-177 aren't much. A good annual is roughly 20hrs (or more) worth of labor, and a good IA will cost you $100/hr. Toss in a couple of minor mx projects throughout the year, and you're in like Flynn!
 
There’s an hour limit on one side of the equation but not the other. That doesn’t seem equitable.

Not part of the question, but as an owner the last guy I want flying my plane is someone that flies 10 hours a year.
 
What's the going rate for an A&P in your area?

What's the going rate for a 177 rental?

Do the math and keep a spreadsheet.

A floating agreement is the only fair way to do this.

Unless you say "I will commit X number of hours to annual and maintain your airplane for X flight hours. Anything over that, you will be charged for."
 
Tom-D said:
Limit on what? how much time I spend? or the hours I place on the aircraft?
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time spent maintaining or doing annual.
Maybe you think you have a firm idea of what that will be but a person could argue that 'things happen' and the maintenance needs balloon (or the owner thinks a bunch of stuff is suddenly needed. You could know this guy better than us however.
 
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My mechanic (before he moved away) did the routine maintenance on two or three planes at our airport and flew them more than the owners. Since he left, the planes have been sold because the owners used them so little. He was paid for the annuals but they were simple since the planes were well maintained.

As an owner, if I were making this deal, I would grant unlimited (on a not to interfere basis) access to my plane and have to come to some agreement about fueling the plane.
 
I would ask for equal time. Each hour you spend working on the airplane is an hour you're allowed to fly it. An annual alone would approach 10 hours if nothing was wrong and come to some agreement on the fuel.
 
Nope....I'd trade dry hour for my time. Might even do an hour for hour arrangement.
 
Does the A&P feel it is fair? The owner? Do both of them feel it is safe to fly that plane for that many hours?
 
Tom-D said:
Would you A&P-IAs maintain a very nice well equipped C-177 for the use of it for 10 hours per year?
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Multiply your hour rate by 10, calculate the "convenience factor" and see what it adds up to. If it covers your costs for performing an annual... I found these types of agreements usually weighed heavy on the convenience factor more than the dollar factor. I prefer a direct ratio: 3 hours my time to 1 hour flight time with a cash pay out if he like sold the aircraft one day before the end of the year.
 
I'm with the crowd that says "some ratio of hours worked to hours to fly."

Need to agree to Dry or Wet and Tach or Hobbs. Then how many mx hours per flight hour.

Might also want a settlement clause or maximum hour accumulation where the labor must be paid cash. That, or for non-routine mx only cash accepted.
 
Bell206 said:
Multiply your hour rate by 10, calculate the "convenience factor" and see what it adds up to. If it covers your costs for performing an annual... I found these types of agreements usually weighed heavy on the convenience factor more than the dollar factor. I prefer a direct ratio: 3 hours my time to 1 hour flight time with a cash pay out if he like sold the aircraft one day before the end of the year.
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Knowing "convenience factor" is big thing, but how would you set a price on it?
 
Ravioli said:
I'm with the crowd that says "some ratio of hours worked to hours to fly."

Need to agree to Dry or Wet and Tach or Hobbs. Then how many mx hours per flight hour.

Might also want a settlement clause or maximum hour accumulation where the labor must be paid cash. That, or for non-routine mx only cash accepted.
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I've had this arrangement with two other owners over the years. and I never put over 25 hours on either. But I also had my own aircraft during those times.
We never made a big deal over my flying either A/C But I knew both owners very well and had maintained both A/C for a long time prior.

This is not so with the Cardinal owner. And Of course I'd buy my own fuel, and not interfere with the owners flying.
 
I’ve done this in the past, and am currently doing it with a couple good friends. I’ve won and lost at this game.

Person #1 I did this with was a real cheapskate and the quality of his annual inspections reflected his personality and approach to maintenance. I didn’t define the agreement well at all, and he thought I was going to fix everything for free. I was fine with it at first because I thought it was going to give me access to a twin but it went south when he balked at letting me use the plane every time I called. He also wanted me to sign things off that were questionable at best (the plane was a real POS).

Person #2 owns some really nice planes. He is very fussy and likes to keep them nice, which makes us get along well together because I refuse to work on junk these days. I spend a lot of time maintaining things for him but he also lets me use pretty much whatever I want. We keep no running tally and both feel that we’re getting the better end of the deal.

I think the big things are, how well do you know the person and what is their personality? If they’re generous and flexible I think it will work out fine. If they’re the kind of person that is always looking at “what’s in it for me” it’s destined to fail before the agreement even gets started.
 
mondtster said:
I think the big things are, how well do you know the person and what is their personality? If they’re generous and flexible I think it will work out fine. If they’re the kind of person that is always looking at “what’s in it for me” it’s destined to fail before the agreement even gets started.
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I think, the only way to find out is to try it. If it doesn't work,, Oh well,Cya.
 
Tom-D said:
Knowing "convenience factor" is big thing, but how would you set a price on it?
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Strictly up to you: is it a unique model you would normally not have access to, or is it parked next to your house? Had opportunity to trade mx for flight time in a Hughes 269 helicopter. Sold my soul due to that "convenience factor." At least I soloed before he left the State with the aircraft and my 14 flight hours credit @ a 6:1 ratio. Went to cash payout after that learning experience.
 
It’s your sweat equity,if your happy with the deal,go for it.
 
And, of course, don't forget to pay income taxes on your barter ...
 
You are going to do all this guys maintenance and assume the liability for $950 worth of flying
 
My instructor who taught me how to fly was also an A&P. He and his brother co-owned a Comanche 180 that their father had purchased new in the early 60s. The deal they had was the A&P brother did all the work, the other brother bought all the parts, they both flew it as much as they wanted. That's a bit different being a family asset, but I would tend to think that's more equitable so long as both are flying similar number of hours per year.
 
Clip4 said:
You are going to do all this guys maintenance and assume the liability for $950 worth of flying
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The cardinal shouldn't require that much maintenance. It has passed annual at one of the best shops in the northwest.
 
Tom-D said:
The cardinal shouldn't require that much maintenance. It has passed annual at one of the best shops in the northwest.
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Tom, what’s you’re liability exposure for performing the maintenance work?

Would/will you maintain liability coverage solely for this opportunity?
 
TCABM said:
Tom, what’s you’re liability exposure for performing the maintenance work?

Would/will you maintain liability coverage solely for this opportunity?
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No more no less than any other work I do.
And no.
 
When you've done this before were you a named insured on the plane, and was the cost of that factored into your trade off calcs?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My instructor who taught me how to fly was also an A&P. He and his brother co-owned a Comanche 180 that their father had purchased new in the early 60s. The deal they had was the A&P brother did all the work, the other brother bought all the parts, they both flew it as much as they wanted. That's a bit different being a family asset, but I would tend to think that's more equitable so long as both are flying similar number of hours per year.
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I think I'd want to be the brother that did all the work rather than the brother that bought the parts.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I think I'd want to be the brother that did all the work rather than the brother that bought the parts.
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The brother who bought the parts was not capable of doing the work. So it was a fair arrangement.
 
Ravioli said:
When you've done this before were you a named insured on the plane, and was the cost of that factored into your trade off calcs?
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We never got that complicated.
 
Tom-D said:
The cardinal shouldn't require that much maintenance. It has passed annual at one of the best shops in the northwest.
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Except when the plane crashes for some reason and some lawyer includes an improper oil change as a possible cause you going to be invited to the shake down. You will then have to hire an attorney.

If you are not carrying liability insurance, limit you risk exposure.
 
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