KWVI Watsonville MId Air, Multiple Fatalities

schmookeeg said:
If the slow car merged left into the lane and got clobbered by the fast car, I'd say the lion's share of blame might be his.

Glad we're not judging this using highway rules. :D
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Except here the "slow car" was essentially merging onto the freeway at freeway speed per the driver's handbook as one should and with his blinker on with a yahoo doing over 100mph in that lane....
 
Shawn said:
Except here the "slow car" was essentially merging onto the freeway at freeway speed per the driver's handbook as one should and with his blinker on with a yahoo doing over 100mph in that lane....
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(> 200 mph)
 
Shawn said:
Except here the "slow car" was essentially merging onto the freeway at freeway speed per the driver's handbook as one should and with his blinker on with a yahoo doing over 100mph in that lane....
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(cutting off)
 
eman1200 said:
(cutting off)
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It's not cutting off when the guy is going 3x your speed. There would be no way to ever enter a highway because you can't see the guy to know not to "cut him off" when he's going that fast.
 
Salty said:
It's not cutting off when the guy is going 3x your speed. There would be no way to ever enter a highway because you can't see the guy to know not to "cut him off" when he's going that fast.
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so it's "ok" because they "didn't know they were there"? which has nothing to do with this case because he DID know he was there?
 
eman1200 said:
so it's "ok" because they "didn't know they were there"? which has nothing to do with this case because he DID know he was there?
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He did not know they were going 3x expected speeds, with gear up and no flaps. You can't expect someone to "know" that was happening. The call was a lie. He was not on final to land. There's no way he was.

Landing? No way. He gave bad info. He is totally at fault.

upload_2022-9-15_17-36-17-png.110547
 
Salty said:
He did not know they were going 3x expected speeds, with gear up and no flaps. You can't expect someone to "know" that was happening. The call was a lie. He was not on final to land. There's no way he was.
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no excuse for how fast the guy was going. however, even at "normal" speeds there is no way I'd be turning base in a 152 with a twin on a 3 mile final. and the guy knew he was on a 3 mile final.
 
eman1200 said:
no excuse for how fast the guy was going. however, even at "normal" speeds there is no way I'd be turning base in a 152 with a twin on a 3 mile final. and the guy knew he was on a 3 mile final.
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I think the odds are that he was already turned or turning before that call occurred. Bottom line, we don't actually know the sequence of events for certain. We do know there is no way that plane could have possibly landed safely.
 
Salty said:
I think the odds are that he was already turned or turning before that call occurred. Bottom line, we don't actually know the sequence of events for certain. We do know there is no way that plane could have possibly landed safely.
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you seem to know them pretty well when you're trying to prove your points. but sure, I agree with you.
 
eman1200 said:
you seem to know them pretty well when you're trying to prove your points. but sure, I agree with you.
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The sequence of events doesn't matter when the plane was making calls telling others he was landing, when he clearly could not possibly have landed safely. He created the situation 100% by saying he was landing, but coming in to the pattern gear up, flaps up, lots of throttle.
 
Salty said:
The sequence of events doesn't matter when the plane was making calls telling others he was landing, when he clearly could not possibly have landed safely. He created the situation 100% by doing that.
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the sequence of events absolutely matters and is documented on the tapes. dude turns base after twin calls 3 mile final.
 
eman1200 said:
the sequence of events absolutely matters and is documented on the tapes. dude turns base after twin calls 3 mile final.
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No. he calls the turn. That does not establish sequence of actual events. It's very common for the call to come after the event.
 
Salty said:
No. he calls the turn. That does not establish sequence of actual events. It's very common for the call to come after the event.
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sure salty. sounds probable.
 
One guy might have made his call late. The other guy flat out lied in his call. But sure blame the guy that was late. Not the guy blasting into the pattern with gear up and no flaps and lots of throttle claiming that he's landing. :rolleyes:
 
Let's look at it another way. Which plane is best positioned to see and avoid? The one ahead and above, or the one behind and below?

upload_2022-9-15_17-36-17-png.110547
 
I also gotta ask. How is that bank helping avoid this accident? Oh no! there's a plan above and to my right. I'd better do a 60 deg bank to the right? Really WTF
 
Salty said:
I also gotta ask. How is that bank helping avoid this accident? Oh no! there's a plan above and to my right. I'd better do a 60 deg bank to the right? Really WTF
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is there actual video of it?
 
Salty said:
He did not know they were going 3x expected speeds, with gear up and no flaps. You can't expect someone to "know" that was happening. The call was a lie. He was not on final to land. There's no way he was.

Landing? No way. He gave bad info. He is totally at fault.
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The part you are missing here Salty is that regardless of the speed the 340 was going, there was going to be a conflict when the 152 turned base in spite of the position announcements of the aircraft on final.

Let me put it this way. If I had been flying the 340 and flying an approach at a more reasonable speed, the 152 would have turned onto final in front of me and I would have had no choice but to abort the landing and go around. I certainly would not have collided with him, but there is no way I could slowed down enough at that point to land behind the 152. I would have to go around. I wouldn't have been angry, but I would certainly have been annoyed if the 152 had turned inside of me while I was making position calls on final.

His 3 mile call was not a lie. At 3 miles out he still had plenty of time/room to slow down, drop the gear and make the landing.

My theory on why the twin never slowed down and dropped the gear is that he was trying to get in ahead of the 152 and was hoping to slow down and drop the gear once he was ahead, but got distracted from slowing down because he was busy looking for the 152. Not saying he wasn't at fault. I'm saying they were both had some responsibility.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The part you are missing here Salty is that regardless of the speed the 340 was going, there was going to be a conflict when the 152 turned base in spite of the position announcements of the aircraft on final.

Let me put it this way. If I had been flying the 340 and flying an approach at a more reasonable speed, the 152 would have turned onto final in front of me and I would have had no choice but to abort the landing and go around. I certainly would not have collided with him, but there is no way I could slowed down enough at that point to land behind the 152. I would have to go around. I wouldn't have been angry, but I would certainly have been annoyed if the 152 had turned inside of me while I was making position calls on final.

His 3 mile call was not a lie. At 3 miles out he still had plenty of time/room to slow down, drop the gear and make the landing.

My theory on why the twin never slowed down and dropped the gear is that he was trying to get in ahead of the 152 and was hoping to slow down and drop the gear once he was ahead, but got distracted from slowing down because he was busy looking for the 152. Not saying he wasn't at fault. I'm saying they were both had some responsibility.
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So it was avoidable by joining the pattern rather than trying to beat the 152 to the runway?
 
Salty said:
I also gotta ask. How is that bank helping avoid this accident? Oh no! there's a plan above and to my right. I'd better do a 60 deg bank to the right? Really WTF
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I suspect that the 152 was in a left bank when the 340 first got sight of him and tried to avoid by turning right.
 
John Spartan said:
So it was avoidable by joining the pattern rather than trying to beat the 152 to the runway?
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It was avoidable by a lot of things.

I've had as many people try to kill me doing 'standard pattern maneuvers' with their heads up their butts as I have with straight ins.

This particular accident was caused by the unfortunate pairing of a pilot who lacked situational awareness with a pilot flying in a ridiculously aggressive manner.

And now both are dead.

I only feel sorry for the 152 pilot....
 
Salty said:
He did not know they were going 3x expected speeds...
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One-third of 180 knots is 60 knots. I would not expect a twin to be flying final that slow.
 
Fearless Tower said:
His 3 mile call was not a lie. At 3 miles out he still had plenty of time/room to slow down, drop the gear and make the landing.
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I'm not absolving the 152 pilot of a good bit or responsibility, but the collision position shown in the track in the report linked in this thread shows the collision just 1-2k feet from the threshold (my estimate using distance between taxiways shown in that diagram as a gauge) and the photo taken almost at the moment of collision shows the 340 still had gear up.

Whether he realized it or not (and I also wonder if medical incapacitation was a factor), the 340 pilot was not going to land on that approach.
 
GaryM said:
I'm not absolving the 152 pilot of a good bit or responsibility, but the collision position shown in the track in the report linked in this thread shows the collision just 1-2k feet from the threshold (my estimate using distance between taxiways shown in that diagram as a gauge) and the photo taken almost at the moment of collision shows the 340 still had gear up.

Whether he realized it or not (and I also wonder if medical incapacitation was a factor), the 340 pilot was not going to land on that approach.
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I think we all agree on that. What I am saying is that I suspect that when he made the call from 3 miles out, he did intend to land, but around the time he should have been slowing down, he got distracted looking for the 152 and missed the opportunity to slow.

Not saying it's right, but offering a theory as to why he was still going that fast/gear up when they collided. Medical incapacitation is the only other explanation that comes to mind.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I think we all agree on that. What I am saying is that I suspect that when he made the call from 3 miles out, he did intend to land, but around the time he should have been slowing down, he got distracted looking for the 152 and missed the opportunity to slow.

Not saying it's right, but offering a theory as to why he was still going that fast/gear up when they collided. Medical incapacitation is the only other explanation that comes to mind.
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I agree thats a possibility. I think it’s more likely he wasn’t planning on landing.
 
Palmpilot said:
One-third of 180 knots is 60 knots. I would not expect a twin to be flying final that slow.
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Yup. Been many years, but I seem to recall landing the C310 around 110 kts.
 
Salty said:
I agree thats a possibility. I think it’s more likely he wasn’t planning on landing.
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Who knows what he was thinking. I just don't know why a pilot would announce that he is on final for a full stop landing if he wasn't planning on landing....
 
Fearless Tower said:
Who knows what he was thinking. I just don't know why a pilot would announce that he is on final for a full stop landing if he wasn't planning on landing....
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I don't know why a pilot would not slow down if he was planning on landing.
I don't know why a pilot would not put his gear down if he was planning on landing.
I don't know why a pilot would not put his flaps down if he was planning on landing.
 
I believe the rule is aviate, navigate, communicate. He did the last one and the middle one. Maybe.
 
Salty said:
I don't know why a pilot would not slow down if he was planning on landing.
I don't know why a pilot would not put his gear down if he was planning on landing.
I don't know why a pilot would not put his flaps down if he was planning on landing.
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Maybe he was planning on gear up so he could get ground to a stop? o_O
 
I don't know if this happened, but I still have a nagging feeling this may have been part of it. Have you ever gone to pull out of a side street, you get an reasonable opening to go and the car you are about to pull in front of guns it? Or you are pulling off the highway, going 60 mph on one of those infamous New England exit ramps where cars enter the highway just ahead of where cars are trying to exit. You are driving along, turn signal on, the guy getting on the highway has his turn signal on, is going maybe 35 mph, is supposed to yield, but decides to whip in front of you?

I really have a feeling these two guys knew about each other. The twin guy was like the one who sees you trying to pull out of a side street and speeds up. The 152 guy like the one entering the highway. He knows what he is doing can get himself killed, but he wants to be first, or whatever the reason, and goes for it.

The bottom line is we can't fly like we drive. We have to actively avoid potential impact all the time, we can't leave it to the other guy to avoid us.

Another point is we may never know if the 152 guy was already turned when he called turning base after the twin guy, in the end it doesn't matter. The thing is, even if he already turned, he could have easily turned BACK to the downwind.

Finally, it appears the 152 didn't fly a squared off base, rather he cheated the base toward the numbers. Had he flown a proper base he most likely would not have collided with the twin as it would have flown by him.

It's just a sad accident.
 
For the record I do believe the 152 screwed up. I said so a hundred pages ago. But I don’t think his screw up is the cause of the accident.
 
Salty said:
I don't know why a pilot would not slow down if he was planning on landing.
I don't know why a pilot would not put his gear down if he was planning on landing.
I don't know why a pilot would not put his flaps down if he was planning on landing.
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I gave you a very plausible theory.

I listened to the audio again. He sounds like a guy who is racing for the runway recognizing there is traffic in the pattern and thinks he can make it before the 152. He hears the 152 on downwind and at 3 miles out he calls final - full stop landing.

Those details are facts. He is still in a position to land, but will need to slow down to configure soon.

Now, my speculation is that the 152's call turning base threw a wrench in his plan. Now, when he should be slowing down to drop the gear, he is eyes outside looking for the 152 and he loses his own SA of where he is in relation to the runway.

Keep in mind, the guy was 75 and I'm not bashing older pilots, but there comes a point when we ain't as good we once was.....

Maybe he could have pulled off a hot dog approach like that 10 years ago.....but not that day.
 
Salty said:
For the record I do believe the 152 screwed up. I said so a hundred pages ago. But I don’t think his screw up is the cause of the accident.
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I hear you, but when two moving objects collide, it almost always involves some degree of responsibility on both parties.

To paraphrase Rule 2 of the nautical rules of the road; nothing in the rules exonerate you if you have a collision.
 
Salty said:
I don't know why a pilot would not slow down if he was planning on landing.
I don't know why a pilot would not put his gear down if he was planning on landing.
I don't know why a pilot would not put his flaps down if he was planning on landing.
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I don't know why the landing lights aren't extended and illuminated. @Kritchlow might remember using them as speed brakes to help get slowed down.
 
wanttaja said:
What's the 152's track based on? I thought its ADS-B out wasn't operating.

Ron Wanttaja
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https://webtrak.emsbk.com/sjc3
Seems to have data for both aircraft.
I have marked in red the bits to change for historical data. You need to move the map to the right place.


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Edited to add image showing full track of 152 as represented on web site.
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