Korean 777 Down in SFO

I'm not so sure about that. If I understood R&W correctly, it sounds like the check airman was the person culturally entitled to deference, even though he was acting as co-pilot. :dunno:

On occasion the check airman could be junior, but in Asian culture there is still the pecking order.

Questioning authority (check airman) or questioning seniors is not in their culture.
 
None of the four pilots on the ill-fated flight were given drug or alcohol tests after the crash!

It seems that pilots of foreign airlines that crash in the US are not required to submit to drug and alcohol tests after a crash.

Source. Aviation week.

I think the rules and laws should be changed accordingly.

I feel that pilots and other crewmembers should be required to take drugs and alcohol tests after a crash. Regardless of nationality of the crew or airline.
 
On occasion the check airman could be junior, but in Asian culture there is still the pecking order.

Questioning authority (check airman) or questioning seniors is not in their culture.

According to the Aviation Week article you linked to, my summary of who did what is:

  1. At 4000 ft the PIC (right seat) noted they were slightly high, so he set vertical speed mode for 1500 fpm.
  2. At 1600 ft "the pilots" disconnected autopilot.
  3. At 500 ft the PIC noted the PAPI showed below glide slope (3 red, 1 white), so the PIC told the PF (left seat) to pull back on the control wheel.
  4. The PIC (at a time not made clear) had set the autothrottle to 137 kts and assumed it would maintain speed.
  5. From 500 to 200 ft "the pilots" were attempting to "correct a lateral deviation."
  6. At 200 ft PAPI showed even more below glide slope (4 red).
  7. The PIC at that point realized the autothrottle had not maintained their speed and established a nose high attitude and attempted to push the throttle forward, but the PF had already just done that.

The relief FO was in the jump seat and the relief captain in the main cabin.
 
Is deferring to a piece of machinery also an "Asian" cultural norm?

Sounds like these pilots trusted their A/T so much they left the ASI out of their scan, at least until it was too late.
 
Just finished reading "Dangerous lessons and guardian angles, an airline pilots story" (Spivack)
Chapter 12 dealt with Spivack's time flying for Korean Airlines, published in 2012, he writes of some the cultural issues and pilot errors he saw while flying for KAL that eventually convinced him to leave before he was involved in an accident.
Pretty interesting and timely.
Tim
 
Is deferring to a piece of machinery also an "Asian" cultural norm?

Sounds like these pilots trusted their A/T so much they left the ASI out of their scan, at least until it was too late.

The "ASI"(speed tape) is right there in front of the pilots on their PFD with all sorts of warnings and symbology, really hard to miss.
 
The "ASI"(speed tape) is right there in front of the pilots on their PFD with all sorts of warnings and symbology, really hard to miss.

..only if you're looking.
 
Is deferring to a piece of machinery also an "Asian" cultural norm?

Sounds like these pilots trusted their A/T so much they left the ASI out of their scan, at least until it was too late.
Not necessarily, considering multiple Air France incidents in the last few years....and there is Colgan.

It is just generally Pi$$ Poor Piloting.

What could be a cultural thing is the flight path. As I mentioned earlier, there is apparently a habit (described by some who have flown with them as an obsession) among Korean pilots to dip below the glidepath/glideslope in order to make a flatter/smoother landing. That may or may not be the reason they stayed high in the first place only to dip down below at the very end. I am not saying that is what happened....just throwing out a possible reason for their flightpath. It would be interesting to compare their track with other Asiana flights.
 
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I read a book back in the 80's on the KAL shoot down over Russia. From the book; the author had discovered that the pilots were awarded bonuses for saving fuel and again from the book it was theorized that the FO was actually taking a short cut he had done many times before through Russian airspace to save fuel. As many have said it is a different culture, not good not bad just different.
 
I read a book back in the 80's on the KAL shoot down over Russia. From the book; the author had discovered that the pilots were awarded bonuses for saving fuel and again from the book it was theorized that the FO was actually taking a short cut he had done many times before through Russian airspace to save fuel. As many have said it is a different culture, not good not bad just different.

Very interesting. That crash has always interested me.

My Dad flew that area with Pan Am and said that he was always very careful to avoid the Kamchatka peninsula and other Russian airspace.
 
It was an interesting book, I need to get it out and read it again. I have no idea how factual it is, authors take liberties at times, but IIRC the guy did a lot of research and talked to a lot of others while doing so.

One thing that made it more interesting was that this happened while I was stationed at Eielson AFB. We played host to the RC-135 birds that flew the ARC to listen in on the Russians and the Chinese. It was also thought that the Russians might have thought it was one of our recon birds. From the conversations our bird DID hear they (the Russians) knew it was a pax airliner when they fired off the missile.
 
According to the Aviation Week article you linked to, my summary of who did what is:

  1. At 4000 ft the PIC (right seat) noted they were slightly high, so he set vertical speed mode for 1500 fpm.
  2. At 1600 ft "the pilots" disconnected autopilot.
  3. At 500 ft the PIC noted the PAPI showed below glide slope (3 red, 1 white), so the PIC told the PF (left seat) to pull back on the control wheel.
  4. The PIC (at a time not made clear) had set the autothrottle to 137 kts and assumed it would maintain speed.
  5. From 500 to 200 ft "the pilots" were attempting to "correct a lateral deviation."
  6. At 200 ft PAPI showed even more below glide slope (4 red).
  7. The PIC at that point realized the autothrottle had not maintained their speed and established a nose high attitude and attempted to push the throttle forward, but the PF had already just done that.
The relief FO was in the jump seat and the relief captain in the main cabin.

Makes you wonder if the PF had a bag over his head.
 
Makes you wonder if the PF had a bag over his head.

Most likely. He probably suggested to the IP that they might have been low and slow and... well, that's what you get for not respecting his authoritah!!. It's on their CRM manual (a loose leaf pamphlet) somewhere. :goofy:
 
I read a book back in the 80's on the KAL shoot down over Russia. From the book; the author had discovered that the pilots were awarded bonuses for saving fuel and again from the book it was theorized that the FO was actually taking a short cut he had done many times before through Russian airspace to save fuel. As many have said it is a different culture, not good not bad just different.

I just saw a special n that a couple weeks ago. It mentioned the KAL crew had the autopilot set to Heading mode the entire flight and followed a single heading. They forgot to switch it to nav mode after takeoff and never confirmed it. They were also puzzled by having different winds than their sister plane nearby but not puzzled enough to investigate. This sounds like two different conclusions -- keep in mind the black boxes weren't received until the 90s since the USSR was keeping them locked away.
 
What's it doing now? :dunno:

I just saw a special n that a couple weeks ago. It mentioned the KAL crew had the autopilot set to Heading mode the entire flight and followed a single heading. They forgot to switch it to nav mode after takeoff and never confirmed it. They were also puzzled by having different winds than their sister plane nearby but not puzzled enough to investigate. This sounds like two different conclusions -- keep in mind the black boxes weren't received until the 90s since the USSR was keeping them locked away.
 
What could be a cultural thing is the flight path. As I mentioned earlier, there is apparently a habit (described by some who have flown with them as an obsession) among Korean pilots to dip below the glidepath/glideslope in order to make a flatter/smoother landing. That may or may not be the reason they stayed high in the first place only to dip down below at the very end. I am not saying that is what happened....just throwing out a possible reason for their flightpath. It would be interesting to compare their track with other Asiana flights.
IF those allegations are true, in my opinion it would indicate poor piloting skills and a disregard for safety.

Have any data, to support your claims? Maybe the flight aware data could be analyzed, however the sampling rate of the flight aware data does not seem to be consistent or at a high enough rate to be of much use. The timestamps on the data available to the public seem to be somewhat arbitrary/inconsistent.

In my opinion pilots that dip below the glide path to make a flatter landing are often compensating for lack of piloting skills. Such behavior would seem to indicate they are compensating for not having the skills to do a flared landing. I think flatter approaches that go below the glide path are often a dangerous crutch, for those that don't have the piloting skills to properly flare a landing.

Getting the flare right can be difficult, especially for a pilot not familiar with an aircraft characteristics or vigilant enough to be familiar with an aircraft characteristics.

I had a friend whose first landing of a large commercial airline was empty (a ferry flight). His first landing was very easy and a greaser but went a little long because of the ground affect and other flare characteristics of a light wind loading. His second landing was heavy laden, so the flare characteristics were noticeably different, and his landing was somewhat hard.
 
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You can't dip below the flight path because whatever you're flying is the flight path. Following a glide slope for vertical guidance while vmc might be required by regs or SOP, or might simply be a backup. Without airmanship either method can come a cropper. The software that drives the FMS and various flight control systems in some jets is sometimes limited and in order to achieve desired landing roll or other performance the crew may find it necessary or productive to hand-fly a bit more of the landing. In any event, it's not a big deal if the crew is competent.

IF those allegations are true, in my opinion it would indicate poor piloting skills and a disregard for safety.

Have any data, to support your claims? Maybe the flight aware data could be analyzed, however the sampling rate of the flight aware data does not seem to be consistent or at a high enough rate to be of much use. The timestamps on the data available to the public seem to be somewhat arbitrary/inconsistent.

In my opinion pilots that dip below the flight path to make a flatter landing are often compensating for lack of piloting skills. Such behavior would seem to indicate they are compensating for not having the skills to do a flared landing. I think flatter approaches that go below the flight path are often a dangerous crutch, for those that don't have the piloting skills to properly flare a landing.

Getting the flare right can be difficult, especially for a pilot not familiar with an aircraft characteristics or vigilant enough to be familiar with an aircraft characteristics.

I had a friend whose first landing of a large commercial airline was empty (a ferry flight). His first landing was very easy and a greaser but went a little long because of the ground affect and other flare characteristics of a light wind loading. His second landing was heavy laden, so the flare characteristics were noticeably different, and his landing was somewhat hard.
 
It is just generally Pi$$ Poor Piloting.
.
Nailed it. Every time I see a news update or think about it, that's all that comes to mind. :yes:
I read a book back in the 80's on the KAL shoot down over Russia. From the book; the author had discovered that the pilots were awarded bonuses for saving fuel and again from the book it was theorized that the FO was actually taking a short cut he had done many times before through Russian airspace to save fuel. As many have said it is a different culture, not good not bad just different.
My Dad flew that area with Pan Am and said that he was always very careful to avoid the Kamchatka peninsula and other Russian airspace.
I wonder if US pilots were getting bonuses for saving fuel whether they'd be taking shortcuts too.
 
So I have a stupid question Re: news reports this morning. Let's say you are on a plane that crash landed inside of a major airport and you're outside milling about as the fire trucks are racing toward you.

Why the hell do you call 911? They already KNOW there is a plane crash!!

Because the fire trucks were coming... but no ambulances were... and they had people that were in critical condition on the ground that needed transport.

Passenger said:
There are NO ambulances here, we've been on the ground 20 minutes...

Article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/11/asiana-passengers-crashed-emergency-response

Audio: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jul/11/asiana-airlines-plane-crash-san-francisco-audio
 
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Police: Firetruck hit girl after Asiana Airlines crash

A new twist to this saga:

From USA Today online (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/12/asiana-victim-fire-truck/2512493/)


One of two Chinese teens killed in the Asiana Airlines crash at San Francisco International Airport was run over by a fire truck that responded to the emergency, police confirmed Friday.

It's not yet clear whether the victim was already dead when struck by the truck, police said.

At least two passengers who died and three flight attendants who survived were ejected from the Boeing 777 after it struck the airport's seawall upon landing Saturday, according to National Transportation Safety Board. Deborah Hersman, the board chairman, has said the initial review of video of the rescue efforts was inconclusive in determining whether a victim was run over.

"We are confirming that at least one time, a fire truck went over a victim," said Officer Albie Esparza, a police spokesman.

San Mateo County Coroner Robert Fourcault hasn't yet identified the victim. Autopsy results could take another two weeks. The coroner's office didn't immediately reply to a request for comment Friday.

The casualties were earlier identified as Wang Linjia and Ye Mengyuan, both 16, from China. The teens were part of a larger contingent who were heading to a summer camp near Los Angeles.

Esparza said two large airport fire trucks initially responded to the crash and began spraying the fuselage with flame-retardant foam. The area around the plane became covered in foam, and when fire trucks moved to continue fighting the fire, the victim covered in foam was run over, Esparza said.

"It led us to believe the victim passenger was on the ground and subsequently covered by this foam and therefore not visible," Esparza said. "When at least one fire truck repositioned itself, to continue fighting the fire, at that time it was discovered the victim was discovered in the tire track."

He couldn't say what view the fire-truck driver might have had of the victim.

"The investigation is ongoing," Esparza said.​
 
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I'm not fire/rescue-- I saw a show some time ago at an airport showing off their crash trucks. One of the hazards they mentioned was people on the ground. The trucks can be moving towards the crash/fire, through smoke, through debris, spraying foam, with no way to see someone on the ground. This particular truck (in the show) was fitted with some kind of IR viewing system to give the driver a chance. I don't know if that's standard now, or if it's just one of those things that you have to deal with if it goes wrong. How many airport crash/fire training scenarios deal with roughly 300 people milling around carrying suitcases?
 
On a lighter note, a screenshot of San Francisco's KTVU stellar news reporting on the four Asiana pilots, named ...

NewImage75.png

http://boingboing.net/2013/07/12/ktvu-sum-ting-wong-and.html

... and subsequent apology.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/ktvu-apology/nYpL3/



edit ... looks like someone beat me to the punch.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61327
 
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OK, now that's funny!! I can't believe she read it!! I would guess someone is looking for a job from the teleprompter department!! :rofl::rofl:

On a lighter note, a screenshot of San Francisco's KTVU stellar news reporting on the four Asiana pilots, named ...

NewImage75.png

http://boingboing.net/2013/07/12/ktvu-sum-ting-wong-and.html

... and subsequent apology.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/ktvu-apology/nYpL3/



edit ... looks like someone beat me to the punch.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61327
 
OK, now that's funny!! I can't believe she read it!! I would guess someone is looking for a job from the teleprompter department!! :rofl::rofl:

Teleprompter? Try copy writers, editors, and graphics. The prompter folks don't write the copy...

She did a nice job of avoiding the "F" word...
 
It was an interesting book, I need to get it out and read it again. I have no idea how factual it is, authors take liberties at times, but IIRC the guy did a lot of research and talked to a lot of others while doing so.

One thing that made it more interesting was that this happened while I was stationed at Eielson AFB. We played host to the RC-135 birds that flew the ARC to listen in on the Russians and the Chinese. It was also thought that the Russians might have thought it was one of our recon birds. From the conversations our bird DID hear they (the Russians) knew it was a pax airliner when they fired off the missile.

Come on guys. Everyone knows we use commercial airliners to spy on other countries. Don't believe that on nonsense you read in book. The internet is where the real story can be found. Same thing happened with Amelia Earhart. The Japanese found out about it and shot her down. :wink2:
 
The trucks can be moving towards the crash/fire, through smoke, through debris, spraying foam, with no way to see someone on the ground.

Some years ago I was involved in a few crash/fire/rescue (CFR) exercises, and my understanding is that this is addressed in training. The focus was that people may be ejected and in the debris, but there is no practical way to avoid that.

If there's survivors, they are inside the fuselage, and CFR must reach the plane and prevent fire from killing them. People ejected from the plane are mixed in the debris are almost certainly dead, the people in the fuselage are salavagable and CFR's first priority is suppressing the fire risk so they can escape.
If they try to clear the path to the plane of any potential victims, the survivors in the plane will burn.

It sounds harsh, but in CFR there are bad options and worse options.
 
Some years ago I was involved in a few crash/fire/rescue (CFR) exercises, and my understanding is that this is addressed in training. The focus was that people may be ejected and in the debris, but there is no practical way to avoid that.

If there's survivors, they are inside the fuselage, and CFR must reach the plane and prevent fire from killing them. People ejected from the plane are mixed in the debris are almost certainly dead, the people in the fuselage are salavagable and CFR's first priority is suppressing the fire risk so they can escape.
If they try to clear the path to the plane of any potential victims, the survivors in the plane will burn.

It sounds harsh, but in CFR there are bad options and worse options.


Agreed.......... it is the lesser of two evils...:sad:
 
..only if you're looking.
True but...

I personally find it inexplicable how you could not know you were coming down 1,000' short of the target, in the water, no less. Not to mention the airspeed.

My first few landings in a 777 (sim) were at San Francisco. The airplane is a very honest-flying machine. I don't remember having any trouble handling it even though I am used to something orders of magnitude smaller.
 
True but...

I personally find it inexplicable how you could not know you were coming down 1,000' short of the target, in the water, no less. Not to mention the airspeed.

My first few landings in a 777 (sim) were at San Francisco. The airplane is a very honest-flying machine. I don't remember having any trouble handling it even though I am used to something orders of magnitude smaller.

In all, incomprehensible.

---

The only transport category sim I have flown is a 737 (both classic and 700), it was not difficult to fly - pitch and power. The only instruction I was given aw, "it flies like an airplane."
 
True but...

I personally find it inexplicable how you could not know you were coming down 1,000' short of the target, in the water, no less. Not to mention the airspeed.

My first few landings in a 777 (sim) were at San Francisco. The airplane is a very honest-flying machine. I don't remember having any trouble handling it even though I am used to something orders of magnitude smaller.

Yeah but you're a competent pilot who actually flies for a living. You aren't just along for the ride.

And you cheat, you have internal static instruments!
 
Yeah but you're a competent pilot who actually flies for a living. You aren't just along for the ride.

And you cheat, you have internal static instruments!
Sadly, I'm not even allowed to ride along right now. :(

But I will be back! :goofy:
 
Wha what what????
I'm figuring they don't want the patch in my nose to explode. No flying, even commercially, for 6 weeks. No work for at least 12 and perhaps more. I assumed that meant no small airplanes either but I didn't ask.

Yes kids, this is why you don't want to rely on your flying income. Luckily I'm old with few commitments...
 
Other than the left engine going off the wrong side of the runway, that looks pretty right.

This link, posted earlier in the thread, shows the initial debris trail was in the right hand half of the runway. The plane apparently veered to the left once the ground loop started.

http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/R..._GM1E9770NWQ01_RTRMADP_3_USA-CRASH-ASIANA.JPG

See also the second photo in this post:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1201798&postcount=56
 
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