Kobe Bryant dead in helicopter crash

mr_happyland said:
I wanted to better understand what possibly happened on this flight. Plus I've had multiple non-pilot friends asking about went wrong. I decided to download the KML data from Flight Radar 24 and build a flight path animation in Google Earth Studio. I then pulled in ATC audio and weather data from the time. The resulting video is a fly-thru of the last 5 minutes of the flight. While it's only a guesstimation based on the data available, I think it helps contribute to the discussion, especially for those unfamiliar with flying in the area.

I'm slightly uneasy posting this because of the human tragedy involved, but I thought I'd put it here because perhaps it helps paint a better picture.

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Great video. I appreciate the heavy disclaimers. I would make one note- early in the video you mention VFR cloud clearance and vis requirements as 3 miles and 500’ below. SVFR of course changes this. But then when he is out of the VNY delta (and thus out of SVFR) and if at the altitude you describe he is technically under the class E which begins at 700 AGL so operating in Class G - one mile,vis and clear of clouds required. If we don’t have this fact it makes it seem like the pilot is breaking the law rather than possibly just exercising judgement.
 
Not sure the TWA witness account matches the radar track. Anything in the radar track show 3-4 mph in the climb? Anyone who’s ever heard an aircraft flying overhead in the clouds, there’s no way of telling how slow they’re going especially with the sound reverberating off the buildings. Also he assumes there would be down wash disturbing the the clouds. Well if the aircraft was above ETL (16-24 kts), the clouds beneath aren’t going to be disturbed. No way he would be able to tell if the aircraft had some malfunction either. Does he know what an S76 sounds like on one engine? Does he know what loss of a tail rotor sounds like?

As far as settling with power, it’s possible if they came to a hover outside of max HOGE. Some refer to that as “hovering with too little power” vs saying SWP but that’s semantics. From what I’ve read, the S76 does seem to have a pretty weak HOGE ceiling but I don’t have an S76 RFM with performance charts in front of me so I don’t know. SWP could have occurred if the pilot got into a rapid descent below ETL but that doesn’t match the impact site. It would be basically a descent straight down and not scattered like that.

I’d be interested in seeing the pilot’s IFR experience. Over 20 years experience doesn’t say much. A lot of times these guys get their tickets but didn’t get any actual time and then they don’t file and fly in actual on a regular basis. Currency and IIMC training is crucial.
 
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FlyingMonkey said:
I would make one note- early in the video you mention VFR cloud clearance and vis requirements as 3 miles and 500’ below. SVFR of course changes this. But then when he is out of the VNY delta (and thus out of SVFR) and if at the altitude you describe he is technically under the class E which begins at 700 AGL so operating in Class G - one mile,vis and clear of clouds required.
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91.155 (b)

Class G Airspace. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section, the following operations may be conducted in Class G airspace below 1,200 feet above the surface:
(1) Helicopter. A helicopter may be operated clear of clouds if operated at a speed that allows the pilot adequate opportunity to see any air traffic or obstruction in time to avoid a collision.
 
Velocity173 said:
Not sure the TWA witness account matches the radar track. Anything in the radar track show 3-4 mph in the climb? Anyone who’s ever heard an aircraft flying overhead in the clouds, there’s no way of telling how slow they’re going especially with the sound reverberating off the buildings. Also he assumes there would be down wash disturbing the the clouds. Well if the aircraft was above ETL (16-24 kts), the clouds beneath aren’t going to be disturbed. No way he would be able to tell if the aircraft had some malfunction either. Does he know what an S76 sounds like on one engine? Does he know what loss of a tail rotor sounds like?

As far as settling with power, it’s possible if they came to a hover outside of max HOGE. Some refer to that as “hovering with too little power” vs saying SWP but that’s semantics. From what I’ve read, the S76 does seem to have a pretty weak HOGE ceiling but I don’t have an S76 RFM with performance charts in front of me so I don’t know. SWP could have occurred if the pilot got into a rapid descent below ETL but that doesn’t match the impact site. It would be basically a descent straight down and not scattered like that.

I’d be interested in seeing the pilot’s IFR experience. Over 20 years expensive doesn’t say much. A lot of times these guys get their tickets but didn’t get any actual time and then they don’t file and fly in actual on a regular basis. Currency and IIMC training is crucial.
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About 8 or 10 years ago I went to a safety seminar at Air Salvage of Dallas where an accident expert walked us to several selected wreckages and gave us a description of the accident and circumstances with a distinct lesson from each one of them. They were all EXCELLENT lessons that I wish every pilot and mechanic of every skill level could have seen.

The one that applies here was a pile of aluminum that had previously been a first responder helicopter. It had been on a night mission off the coast of Galveston to seek a boat that was dead in the water far beyond the coastal horizon. Just before reaching the boats location the pilot was told that the coast guard had found them. He turned back toward Galveston, lost control and went in. He was a high time, highly experienced, instrument rated, instrument current pilot.

It can happen.
 
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MBDiagMan said:
About 8 or 10 years ago I went to a safety seminar at Air Salvage of Dallas where an accident expert walked us to several selected wreckages and gave us a description of the accident and circumstances with a distinct lesson from each one of them. They were all EXCELLENT lessons that I wish every pilot and mechanic of every skill level could have seen.

The one that applies here was a pile of aluminum that had previously been a first responder helicopter. It had been o night mission off the coast of Galveston to seek a boat that was dead in the water far beyond the coastal horizon. Just before reaching the boats location the pilot was told that coast guard had found them. He turned back toward Galveston, lost control and went in. He was a high time, highly experienced, instrument rated, instrument current pilot.

It can happen.
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Yeah no doubt it can happen to experienced pilots as well.

We just finished our crew brief at work a few minutes ago. Obviously the accident is a hot topic right now. I’ve got a new flight paramedic today and these types of accidents makes them uneasy with their line of work. She didn’t understand why a pilot could get disoriented if they are rated and the aircraft is equipped. Obviously I had to tell her that while that mitigates spatial D and helps to prevent CFIT, it’s not a panacea and never will be. I tried to explain “trust your instruments” and how that is easier said than done. Basically, even with experience I told her 1) I can’t guarantee we’ll never go IIMC and 2) I can’t guarantee that I won’t suffer from any number the vestibular illusions associated with IIMC. Unfortunately, until we have a computer that takes over or some sort of red button auto land like a SF50, IIMC accidents will continue to happen.
 
skier said:
91.155 (b)

Class G Airspace. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section, the following operations may be conducted in Class G airspace below 1,200 feet above the surface:
(1) Helicopter. A helicopter may be operated clear of clouds if operated at a speed that allows the pilot adequate opportunity to see any air traffic or obstruction in time to avoid a collision.
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I'm pretty sure that it was a Part 135 flight...different than Part 91. I also think that he violated the Part 135 cloud clearance requirements.

Bob
 
Would this aircraft have a FDR?
mr_happyland said:
I wanted to better understand what possibly happened on this flight. Plus I've had multiple non-pilot friends asking about went wrong. I decided to download the KML data from Flight Radar 24 and build a flight path animation in Google Earth Studio. I then pulled in ATC audio and weather data from the time. The resulting video is a fly-thru of the last 5 minutes of the flight. While it's only a guesstimation based on the data available, I think it helps contribute to the discussion, especially for those unfamiliar with flying in the area.

I'm slightly uneasy posting this because of the human tragedy involved, but I thought I'd put it here because perhaps it helps paint a better picture.

Click to expand...

That video is interesting. The climb at the end: my first impression was he flew into the clouds, lost sight of terrain, and climbed for clearance. After that? I don’t know, spatial disorientation?
 
Such a familiar story. Aviation may hold inherent risks, but it doesn't have to be this dangerous, and time and again, we see the same fact chain play out before a crash involving bad weather.

I sincerely hope I maintain the ability to say "no" in situations like this as I do more commercial flying, even if it costs me a job.
 
Velocity173 said:
Basic ADS-B out transmits your GPS derived position to a ground station then to ATC. That ground station can definitely get blocked by terrain.

Space based ADS-B requires a separate top antenna that relays the position of the aircraft back to a LEO satellite, and then down to ATC. That’s an optional system that not all aircraft have installed.
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Thanks.
 
bobmrg said:
I'm pretty sure that it was a Part 135 flight...different than Part 91. I also think that he violated the Part 135 cloud clearance requirements.

Bob
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§ 135.205 VFR: Visibility requirements.

(b) No person may operate a helicopter under VFR in Class G airspace at an altitude of 1,200 feet or less above the surface or within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport unless the visibility is at least -

(1) During the day - 1/2 mile; or

(2) At night - 1 mile.​

So, after leaving the class D, at which time his special VFR clearance terminated, he required 1/2 mile of visibility down in class G airspace.
 
jpskies said:
In 2014, an ROCAF-Taiwanese Apache AH-64 Attack helicopter crashed in a similar situation. The investigator found the pilot inadvertently flew into IMC, he stopped forward movement and pulled the collective tried to ascent above the cloud layer. The helicopter entered the "vortex ring state" and uncontrollably descent in 45 degree angle and crashed. The following is the video captured by a motorist (pay attention to the right side of the screen). Both the pilot and WSO survived due to the much stronger airframe but the AH-64 was totaled.
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Man I have to question that investigation. That did not look anything like SWP. That looked like nose down, diving towards the ground with possibly smoke? coming from the engine. Maybe he got a mast bump, hitting the tail with the rotors, causing some engine damage?

Just does not look like SWP. Are you sure got the right video?
 
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Pictures taken immediately after the crash by a bicyclist up on TMZ. Not much aircraft to see.
 
At the press conference last night the NTSB investigator said there was an iPad with Foreflight on board.

About two hours before Kobe's crash my wife and I were in our 172, in CAVU conditions over the desert enroute to Yuma AZ. I was showing her the synthetic vision feature on Foreflight on my iPhone on the yoke mount, and how it drew a picture of the terrain all around us ... :(
 
Pilawt said:
At the press conference last night the NTSB investigator said there was an iPad with Foreflight on board.

About two hours before Kobe's crash my wife and I were in our 172, in CAVU conditions over the desert enroute to Yuma AZ. I was showing her the synthetic vision feature on Foreflight on my iPhone on the yoke mount, and how it drew a picture of the terrain all around us ... :(
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Of course, to use that properly, one must keep the aircraft in a controlled condition on instruments, and then look at the iPad, rinse and repeat.
 
Well, pilot had 8,000 hrs and it looks like it was all in that area. Fare amount of helo experience. PPL January 2001, IFR October 2007 followed by COM in December. Sad deal.
 
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Yes, even on flight s when I don’t use FF, I turn on FF and throw it on 5he back seat. After the flight I have a track log. FF has to be on for this to record though.
 
I'm not buying much of these speculations about how this highly qualified, proficient and safety conscious pilot blew into a fog layer and lost control of his helicopter. Without a CVR, there will never be proof of pilot incapacitation or a system failure, so we'll have to wait for the forensic data from the wreckage (if there can be any) to lend a clue to what happened.

An S-76B with nine people aboard has plenty of power reserve to fly slowly or climb aggressively, which would have been the two conditions needed to deal with a loss of visual reference, or DVE event. Yeah, it's a shocking and disorienting event, losing visual contact with the surface and terrain, but recovery is fairly uncomplicated and once committed, there is nothing else to do but fly the aircraft, climb and go somewhere with an instrument approach and enough weather to get on the ground...

I guess I'm taking this personally, since I've spent so many thousands of hours in exactly this environment- low and slow in terrible weather with a good chance of losing ground contact. I know what I would have done and there is no shame in calling it quits when the conditions are no longer acceptable.

Add all the idiotic media "reporting" of this tragedy and I am getting pretty aggravated. Time for a drive and a strawberry malt. See ya!
 
That all presumes he had time to take those actions. It looks like from the time he turned off of 101 until the time of the last position hit is under 20 seconds. Sure going up immediately (even if into the clouds) would be the best course of action, it looks like he was trying to turn around (M)VFR.
 
IK04 said:
I'm not buying much of these speculations about how this highly qualified, proficient and safety conscious pilot blew into a fog layer and lost control of his helicopter. Without a CVR, there will never be proof of pilot incapacitation or a system failure, so we'll have to wait for the forensic data from the wreckage (if there can be any) to lend a clue to what happened.

An S-76B with nine people aboard has plenty of power reserve to fly slowly or climb aggressively, which would have been the two conditions needed to deal with a loss of visual reference, or DVE event. Yeah, it's a shocking and disorienting event, losing visual contact with the surface and terrain, but recovery is fairly uncomplicated and once committed, there is nothing else to do but fly the aircraft, climb and go somewhere with an instrument approach and enough weather to get on the ground...

I guess I'm taking this personally, since I've spent so many thousands of hours in exactly this environment- low and slow in terrible weather with a good chance of losing ground contact. I know what I would have done and there is no shame in calling it quits when the conditions are no longer acceptable.

Add all the idiotic media "reporting" of this tragedy and I am getting pretty aggravated. Time for a drive and a strawberry malt. See ya!
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Yeah, I agree. In the absence of more evidence, it's best just to consider the factors, without trying to come up with a specific explanation. Low flight in 1/2 to 1 SM viz is a routine helicopter operation, but also one that carries elevated risk, so you expect a higher percentage of fatal accidents than for helicopter ops in more-benign conditions (even if the percentage is still very low). This was one of those fatal accidents. We'll see if the NTSB can figure out any more.
 
jallen0 said:
Pictures taken immediately after the crash by a bicyclist up on TMZ. Not much aircraft to see.
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I can't see where it might indicate how long after the crash these pictures were taken (but it was still very much on fire). Certainly the crash sight was beneath the cloud deck at the time.
 
FlyingMonkey said:
Great video. I appreciate the heavy disclaimers. I would make one note- early in the video you mention VFR cloud clearance and vis requirements as 3 miles and 500’ below. SVFR of course changes this. But then when he is out of the VNY delta (and thus out of SVFR) and if at the altitude you describe he is technically under the class E which begins at 700 AGL so operating in Class G - one mile,vis and clear of clouds required. If we don’t have this fact it makes it seem like the pilot is breaking the law rather than possibly just exercising judgement.
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thx for the feedback! I don't see what aspect of the flight is being presented as potentially illegal. For what it's worth, the visibility was 2.5 miles at VNY and ceiling was 1300 AGL. In fact, I further go to explain that he is legal when flying as low as he is. Besides, my understanding is that helicopters can operate in class G at 1/2 mile viz and clear of clouds.
 
Am I crazy for asking if this craft impacted inverted? The overview shots sure do look a lot like that to me.
 
WBI Flyer said:
Am I crazy for asking if this craft impacted inverted?
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No. With the T/R pylon laying near the beginning and M/R debris in the larger impact site before the fuselage and xsmn it could be possible. But waiting to see what the NTSB uncovers first.
 
Let’s just drop back to the foggy conditions. No matter how one thinks it should shake out, WX appears a factor.
 
sourdough44 said:
WX appears a factor.
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Probably, but we'll see. His last radio indicated he needed to climb to avoid a cloud layer which, in my opinion means, he sees it in front of him. However, my questions is, was there a person sitting in the co-pilots seat next to him.....?
 
A little info on the "Igor" S-76. Its strong point is IFR. They are well equipped for IFR. It normally comes out of the factory with a high end dual autopilot installation. Its normally flown THROUGH the autopilots T.O. to landing. Very different from a Jetranger. Vis over the nose is horrible, specially when decelerating or hover. Hovers at a 12 deg nose up deck angle. Performance is sporty. I've seen ROC of 3,800 fpm with a medium load. Had some power in reserve. Beats a P-51. Deck angle will spill your coffee.
See AIM para 10-1-2 for guidance on the decel maneuver on inst approach. This come into play at rush hour when ATC has a couple of airliners behind you on the ILS.
Regarding settling with power. Or VRS. Or helicopter stalls. Call it what you are comfy with. A former Naval Aviator I knew put one in the drink on approach to an offshore structure. Alt was 75'. AS about zero with a slight tailwind. Happened fast. My employer decided that all the boys needed to sharpen up on VRS. Over the years I got to do one on every check ride. In A/C that ranged from 3,200 lb GW to 17,500 GW. In all cases, they were initiated above 4,000'. Just zero out the AS and hold it. It eventually breaks a bit more than a Cessna. And recovery must be an aggressive nose down. You can also side slip in the direction that the tail rotor thrusts to speed recovery. As you fly out it, you may notice 4,000 to 6,000 down on the VSI. Altitude loss is more than 2000 feet. Fun.
 
Maxnr said:
\ My employer decided that all the boys needed to sharpen up on VRS. Over the years I got to do one on every check ride. In A/C that ranged from 3,200 lb GW to 17,500 GW. In all cases, they were initiated above 4,000'. Just zero out the AS and hold it. It eventually breaks a bit more than a Cessna. And recovery must be an aggressive nose down. You can also side slip in the direction that the tail rotor thrusts to speed recovery. As you fly out it, you may notice 4,000 to 6,000 down on the VSI. Altitude loss is more than 2000 feet. Fun.
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Why the 2,000 feet loss on the recovery? The recovery is at the onset of settling, and just smoothly pushing the cyclic forward.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well, pilot had 8,000 hrs and it looks like it was all in that area. Fare amount of helo experience. PPL January 2001, IFR October 2007 followed by COM in December. Sad deal.
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Has any information about his flying background been released ? Any military or HAA experience or was all his flying socal charter flying ?


benyflyguy said:
Ugh doesn’t look like there is enough stuff to build a helicopter out of. where do those investigators even start?! It’s overwhelming.
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Some of the bicyclists pictures look like it is a 'combustible metals' fire. Enough heat+oxygen and aluminum burns away like a beer can in a campfire.
 
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weilke said:
look like it is a 'combustible metals' fire.
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FYI: the fire chief mentioned a magnesium fire which may have been the "white" fire in the pics. There are a number of mag alloy parts on a 76.
 
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