Knuckleheads in California try to self-deport pilot-trainee

Not agreeing with the California kidnappers, I'm sure there are a lot of Phoenix controllers who would love it if a lot of the Chinese students were deported back to China. If not speaking English causes problems for flight, it is an issue.
 
Yeah. The guy was an idiotic dick for doing what he did and I certainly don’t have anything against Chinese but an English proficiency determination should be step 1 in the process for any foreign student.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Not agreeing with the California kidnappers, I'm sure there are a lot of Phoenix controllers who would love it if a lot of the Chinese students were deported back to China. If not speaking English causes problems for flight, it is an issue.
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"Follow the Hawker on your right" doesn't translate well, apparently. ;)
 
Don't give them a solo signoff until you are convinced they can speak English well enough to comprehend and communicate. I once had to do this to a non-native English speaker.
 
If language is that much of a problem I’d think that getting an English-as-a-second-language program going would be a slightly better alternative compared to something like kidnapping, assault, unofficial deportation...or other similar illegal things. ESL programs are used in the academic world.
 
Lol, WTF? How on earth did these flight school folks think that was going to turn out? Especially in CA!

Side note, I'd be interested in what lead up to this, not saying there is likely a good reason to try to do what they did, but I bet there is one doozie of a backstory here lol
 
Wasn't there an incident, about 5 years ago, where a controller or someone official had the police detain a guy so they could physically take his certificate away from him because he couldn't make himself understood on the radio?
 
Clark1961 said:
If language is that much of a problem I’d think that getting an English-as-a-second-language program going would be a slightly better alternative compared to something like kidnapping, assault, unofficial deportation...or other similar illegal things. ESL programs are used in the academic world.
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Except that learning another language well enough to be proficient takes quite a bit longer than going from zero hours to solo.
 
If that wasn't the Washington Post I'd think it was an Onion article.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Except that learning another language well enough to be proficient takes quite a bit longer than going from zero hours to solo.
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Does it? I’m thinking they shouldn’t solo until achieving some level of English language proficiency. There are not that many words to learn for communication with ATC. It’s not like they have to learn to think in English. Hmmm, might be a good side gig for some pilots who are linguists.
 
Clark1961 said:
Does it? I’m thinking they shouldn’t solo until achieving some level of English language proficiency. There are not that many words to learn for communication with ATC. It’s not like they have to learn to think in English. Hmmm, might be a good side gig for some pilots who are linguists.
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Or a bad side gig. Seriously, there are probably more words than you think and more importantly, there are more variations of ideas not to mention impromptu things that might come up. If they cannot easily speak the language of flight controllers then I don't want them flying because I might not understand them either.
 
bflynn said:
Or a bad side gig. Seriously, there are probably more words than you think and more importantly, there are more variations of ideas not to mention impromptu things that might come up. If they cannot easily speak the language of flight controllers then I don't want them flying because I might not understand them either.
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Understanding the phraseology of ATC, may be somewhat easy since it is a limited vocabulary, but understanding pilots is different, since we may or may not use standard phrases - especially in an uncontrolled (non-towered airport) environment. That's what I really worry about.

If they can't understand what I've said, or I can't understand what they've said, it is a real problem.
 
bflynn said:
Or a bad side gig. Seriously, there are probably more words than you think and more importantly, there are more variations of ideas not to mention impromptu things that might come up. If they cannot easily speak the language of flight controllers then I don't want them flying because I might not understand them either.
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“probably more words than I think” ummm, no. I can think of and use all the words necessary to deal with ATC. A guy who posts here wrote a book on it so a template already exists. The pilot-controller glossary is published. Maybe a little positive outlook is appropriate.
 
I was a paper boy for the Post, way, way back - the front page was news, the classic way - who,what,when, where, etc. They kept the editorials on the editorial page. I know the business changed with the times, and features migrated to the front page, to sell papers. But man, since Trump won, the Post is heavy on the vitriol, nearly hysterical sometimes- every paragraph, occasionally every sentence, has a pejorative word, a subjective slant, innuendo, etc. I know newspapers aren't all that relevant anymore, but it's kinda sad to see a long established one lose their way so thoroughly; the Post's politics aren't mine, for sure, but they used to be worth reading, to hear the other side's point of view.

So, a joke, updated from the Reagan years:
The Pope visits Trump, and while relaxing in Florida, they go fishing on the bay, just the two of them, while the press watches from shore.
After a bit, a gust of wind blows off the Pope's hat, and Trump steps out of the boat, walks across the water, and retrieves the hat for his Holiness
The Post headline the next day?
"Trump Can't Swim!"
 
While I was leaving the Phoenix area and still on with Phoenix center I overheard a somewhat hilarious exchange between a controller and what I imagine was probably one of these Chinese students. I believe the student was trying to get flight following and the controller kept saying "say destination" to which the student would reply by giving a ton of information in broken english that did NOT include the destination airport and tying up the frequency for a looong time. They repeated this exchange back and forth several times before the student finally gave the destination airport code. I had to admire the patience of that controller, but I guess what else could he do?

Hilarious as that was, you have to imagine what if there was a traffic conflict and this student was given urgent instructions that had to be complied with to avoid an accident? What if he has an emergency- would he be able to communicate the problem and get help? I thought English proficiency was a requirement but it seems as if they're being lax on that... it's kind of a big deal maybe they should make it an emphasis area.
 
cowman said:
Hilarious as that was, you have to imagine what if there was a traffic conflict and this student was given urgent instructions that had to be complied with to avoid an accident? What if he has an emergency- would he be able to communicate the problem and get help? I thought English proficiency was a requirement but it seems as if they're being lax on that... it's kind of a big deal maybe they should make it an emphasis area.
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I’ve lived and worked in three non-English speaking countries. I can certainly understand the foreign student’s language challenges. The real problem lies in how to facilitate learning enough of the language. Certainly flight instructors don’t have the tools to teach English. None of the “learn XXXXXXX language in 10 days” programs will work unless we want foreign pilots to be able to go to a bank to buy dollars then visit a museum.
 
The English proficiency thing will soon cause an accident and it will be addressed.

I just hope the accident isn't with me.
 
cowman said:
While I was leaving the Phoenix area and still on with Phoenix center I overheard a somewhat hilarious exchange between a controller and what I imagine was probably one of these Chinese students. I believe the student was trying to get flight following and the controller kept saying "say destination" to which the student would reply by giving a ton of information in broken english that did NOT include the destination airport and tying up the frequency for a looong time. They repeated this exchange back and forth several times before the student finally gave the destination airport code. I had to admire the patience of that controller, but I guess what else could he do?
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Foreign speaking students need to know Aviation English, and "say destination" would be part of that. I would have thought that such a course would already be taught at these schools to students whose native language is not English, but maybe not.
 
A lot of Chineese students are being taught at small flight schools with minimal facilities and equipment. Don't think they are too interested in being a language school.
 
RalphInCA said:
A lot of Chineese students are being taught at small flight schools with minimal facilities and equipment. Don't think they are too interested in being a language school.
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Not sure where you are getting that information, but IASCO, referenced in the original post, is a large organization that has been training pilots from Asia for a long time. Someone once suggested that I apply there, because they mistakenly thought I spoke Japanese. This was in the 1980s.
 
Everskyward said:
Not sure where you are getting that information, but IASCO, referenced in the original post, is a large organization that has been training pilots from Asia for a long time. Someone once suggested that I apply there, because they mistakenly thought I spoke Japanese. This was in the 1980s.
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My info comes from personal experience with flight training operations that fly out of the same airports I do.
 
RalphInCA said:
My info comes from personal experience with flight training operations that fly out of the same airports I do.
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I thought Chinese airlines sent their students to the States to be trained. It seems strange to me that they would pick small mom and pop flight schools to do that, but maybe so. In any case, I think education in Aviation English should be a required subject.
 
Clark1961 said:
I’ve lived and worked in three non-English speaking countries. I can certainly understand the foreign student’s language challenges. The real problem lies in how to facilitate learning enough of the language. Certainly flight instructors don’t have the tools to teach English. None of the “learn XXXXXXX language in 10 days” programs will work unless we want foreign pilots to be able to go to a bank to buy dollars then visit a museum.
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I believe we all can understand their challenges and even have empathy for them. It sure as hell ain’t easy to learn the typical everyday parts of a new language but then toss in the special vocabulary of a technical discipline especially one where you must verbally communicate with precision and, oh boy, I know I would struggle and probably fail.

Still having an appreciation for the difficulty and feeling empathy for them doesn’t mean that we can accept subpar performance that could possibly present a dangerous situation. We must maintain a standard that hopefully will help to guarantee safety.
 
I'm not sure which flight school(s) are involved but there are numerous Asian students at Falcon Field, just South of Atlanta. They share a unicom frequency with my home field. Some of the unintelligible babble that comes over the airwaves would be funny if it didn't clog the frequency for several local airports.

There have been more than a few times when I was tempted to put on my worst Chinglish accent and participate in the fray.
 
The worrying thing is, that there is a DPE who keeps signing off these pilots as "english proficient".
In this case, I wouldn't be surprised if the school tried to send the student home multiple times prior, but he simply could not understand them.

"Sonny, I think you need more english lessons"
"yess I will"
"no, like, really"
"yess I will"

A month later
"We don't see much progress, what's going on?"
"Yess, I will"
"no but, what's going on, we can't keep you here if you don't speak the language?"
"Yess, I will"

<repeat 5 times>

"Sonny, you're going home now"
"I don't undelstannnd"
"no, we're going, now"
"heeerp! I call porice!"

etc.
 
kyleb said:
I'm not sure which flight school(s) are involved but there are numerous Asian students at Falcon Field, just South of Atlanta. They share a unicom frequency with my home field. Some of the unintelligible babble that comes over the airwaves would be funny if it didn't clog the frequency for several local airports.

There have been more than a few times when I was tempted to put on my worst Chinglish accent and participate in the fray.
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I might or might not have succumbed to that temptation once or twice.
 
We have a lot of foreign students here in the Phoenix area. The other day I was on a PHX TRACON frequency and heard one poor English-language-challenged solo student in an Archer actually acknowledge an altitude change issued to an air carrier aircraft. When the airliner didn't comply with the instruction the controller started asking pointed questions and said, "Look, I heard somebody acknowledge it," while the airline crew continued to plead ignorance. I knew what had happened, but it wasn't my place to explain it.

The controllers around here -- military and civilian -- have the patience of Job with some of these guys. Some do very well with English, which I greatly admire, since English is a very tough language to learn. But others ... not so much, and I fear some day it will cause a big problem in the air. I'm sure if I caused as much delay and disruption as some of these guys do I would be told in no uncertain terms, "Radar service terminated, squawk VFR, set your compass on 'E' and get the #### out of my airspace!!"
 
mtuomi said:
The worrying thing is, that there is a DPE who keeps signing off these pilots as "english proficient".
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True, but I don't think mocking them or their accents is a viable solution.
 
Clark1961 said:
“probably more words than I think” ummm, no. I can think of and use all the words necessary to deal with ATC. A guy who posts here wrote a book on it so a template already exists. The pilot-controller glossary is published. Maybe a little positive outlook is appropriate.
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What is published is the controller glossary. Pilots can say whatever they want.

Pilots who cannot speak english are a danger wherever they fly.
 
Everskyward said:
Don't give them a solo signoff until you are convinced they can speak English well enough to comprehend and communicate. I once had to do this to a non-native English speaker.
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Heard on 122.75 heading to Winslow, an instructor followed a student in another plane on her solo xc. Helped her fing the airport and gave her direction on when to descend etc. She sounded Asian and was way out of her league. Traced the plane to Prescott.
 
kyleb said:
I'm not sure which flight school(s) are involved but there are numerous Asian students at Falcon Field, just South of Atlanta. They share a unicom frequency with my home field. Some of the unintelligible babble that comes over the airwaves would be funny if it didn't clog the frequency for several local airports.

There have been more than a few times when I was tempted to put on my worst Chinglish accent and participate in the fray.
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And also KCCO which is the main Falcon Aviation Academy location along with Falcon Field. The first time I went to the flight school down there i saw signs on the walls that said something like, "To all Chinese students, you will only speak English when on campus." I thought it was a joke at first but then realized it wasn't.
 
RalphInCA said:
The English proficiency thing will soon cause an accident and it will be addressed.

I just hope the accident isn't with me.
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Two chinese students in Cessna 150s collided a few years ago above CYHU just south of Montreal. One fatality. One had just taken off the other was coming in for a landing. The controller warned one repeatedly not to descend but got no answer, then the accident occured. Transport Canada is just now changing the rules concerning language proficiency:

https://copanational.org/en/2018/05/07/ac-401-009/
 
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