Tarheelpilot
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Tarheelpilot
Should be the minimum requirement.
Knuckleheads in California try to self-deport pilot-trainee
- Thread starter wsuffa
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Too bad Fox news doesn't do the same!
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
I worked with a guy that was an instructor at a school that did a lot of training with Chinese students.
He was getting to the point where he would not recommend students for the checkride if their English was not where it needed to be.
He was told, You WILL sign off these students for their checkride no matter what.
It appeared that if the student fails out of the training, then the school does not get the money from the Chinese agency that was footing the bills.
He finally quit instructing and got a job as SIC in the company I was flying for at the time.
He was getting to the point where he would not recommend students for the checkride if their English was not where it needed to be.
He was told, You WILL sign off these students for their checkride no matter what.
It appeared that if the student fails out of the training, then the school does not get the money from the Chinese agency that was footing the bills.
He finally quit instructing and got a job as SIC in the company I was flying for at the time.
1RTK1
Pattern Altitude
I fly at a non towered airport where foreign students frequent. Your head better be on a swivel when you here the airport name because many times that’s all you will understand. Very unnerving at times
denverpilot
Tied Down
The Chinese students of today who are barely passing and nearly unintelligible, not understanding a word of what the controllers are saying, will be back in a much larger airplane landing at much larger airports within a couple of years.
It’ll be fun, they said. Trust us, they said.
Do I need to dig up the Air China Freight recording doing an ORD arrival again? It’s laughably bad. He had a “heavy” callsign.
Disaster waiting to happen if they’re not doing any better in the big airplane as the last time I visited KDVT.
It wasn’t just the accent or anyone “making fun of it”, it was the complete lack of comprehension of most of what the controllers there are saying, which was shocking.
Accent problems are worldwide. Sometimes even funny. Comprehension problems so bad that simple VFR pattern instructions weren’t understood regularly by multiple aircraft in the pattern, for years on end, is on a whole different level.
It’ll be fun, they said. Trust us, they said.
Do I need to dig up the Air China Freight recording doing an ORD arrival again? It’s laughably bad. He had a “heavy” callsign.
Disaster waiting to happen if they’re not doing any better in the big airplane as the last time I visited KDVT.
It wasn’t just the accent or anyone “making fun of it”, it was the complete lack of comprehension of most of what the controllers there are saying, which was shocking.
Accent problems are worldwide. Sometimes even funny. Comprehension problems so bad that simple VFR pattern instructions weren’t understood regularly by multiple aircraft in the pattern, for years on end, is on a whole different level.
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Aztec Flyer
Couple of years ago we had a group of 11 young Chinese students training at our airport. They were from somewhat wealthy families and on a 1 year visa with the permission but not the sponsorship of the Chinese govt. All of them had quite good English language (they used to come to our Flying Club pub nights) as they studied it at the private schools they had attended in China. I remember asking a few of them what they wanted to do back home when they were finished. They all said the same thing...they wished they could stay here.
The two women in the group smoked their male peers, academically and in the air. Talk about seriously motivated. The guys spent much of their time in the parking lot chain smoking cigarettes.
There's a Chinese student puppy mill training for their airlines at another airport not far away. That's an accident waiting to happen imo. I don't go near the place any more.
James331
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Instructors who do that should get 709ed
Pushing people who don't have the chops to fly through is NOT a good idea and is also about the same as handing out pistols to crazy bums IMO.
Here's where it ends up.
Which is why I'd probably have a hard time not nullifying if I were on a jury for the instructors who tried to send the student back.
Chinese puppy mill? Is that considered "farm to fork"
scottfromboston
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Scott
That's a terrible thing to say about Clinton, whether you like him or not. Just because he had trouble defining a word????
JOhnH
Touchdown! Greaser!
sometimes its hard to tell the difference.
BrianNC
En-Route
Someone told me at Falcon Aviation Academy in Newnan GA that their instructors always follow the students (don’t know if it’s just the Chinese or all the students) on their solo flights.
GreatLakesFlying
Pre-takeoff checklist
I can't begin to fathom what went through the two instructors' minds who self-deputized as federal agents and granted themselves deportation authority. It is very likely that their aviation career is about to take a long break.
The victim was in the US legally; according to the news, he was grounded, not expelled from the school. If that is indeed the case, his visa was valid and there was no reason for deportation proceedings. Not to mention that such proceedings are the exclusive responsibility of select federal agents.
But the broader issue here is language proficiency. I came to the US in 1989 and I nearly starved myself to death during my first week here. You see, I tried to get a meal at a place that called itself the king of burgers but had no burgers on its menu, just whoppers.
Kidding aside, I've been in higher education since then, and I have worked extensively with international students. I empathize with them a lot, having been one myself. I know that most schools in the US have low standards for English proficiency, to ensure profitable enrollments. And to some extent, we are ok with that because who cares about the communication skills of a software developer or a quant?
There are professions however where English proficiency is paramount. Surgeons. 911 dispatchers. Air traffic controllers. Pilots. And elementary school teachers, to name a few.
To return to the original story: pilots need to have solid proficiency in English, both in terms of vocabulary/grammar and enunciation. Speaking with an accent is fine; speaking unintelligibly is not. Maybe it is time for the FAA to define specific linguistic standards for English proficiency rather than deferring to the judgment of CFIs and school operators.
The victim was in the US legally; according to the news, he was grounded, not expelled from the school. If that is indeed the case, his visa was valid and there was no reason for deportation proceedings. Not to mention that such proceedings are the exclusive responsibility of select federal agents.
But the broader issue here is language proficiency. I came to the US in 1989 and I nearly starved myself to death during my first week here. You see, I tried to get a meal at a place that called itself the king of burgers but had no burgers on its menu, just whoppers.
Kidding aside, I've been in higher education since then, and I have worked extensively with international students. I empathize with them a lot, having been one myself. I know that most schools in the US have low standards for English proficiency, to ensure profitable enrollments. And to some extent, we are ok with that because who cares about the communication skills of a software developer or a quant?
There are professions however where English proficiency is paramount. Surgeons. 911 dispatchers. Air traffic controllers. Pilots. And elementary school teachers, to name a few.
To return to the original story: pilots need to have solid proficiency in English, both in terms of vocabulary/grammar and enunciation. Speaking with an accent is fine; speaking unintelligibly is not. Maybe it is time for the FAA to define specific linguistic standards for English proficiency rather than deferring to the judgment of CFIs and school operators.
denverpilot
Tied Down
The working theory on another pilot board after a post from an instructor who says that he worked at such a place for eight years... is that these Chinese sponsored school contracts often include clauses in the contract that the WORST student of an entire group of sponsored students must pass milestones/checkrides, or the school doesn't get paid for ANY of the students.
Whether true or not, it certainly sounds plausible to me considering the absolute crap contracts and dumb business practices of aviation schools in general, since pilots will sign anything to fly and get paid.
You'd want to drop the worst student's butt on an airliner home when the checks from China haven't cashed for months, per your horrid business plan and insanely stupid training contracts you've signed, just to win the bid for piles of Chinese students.
The only instructor I know personally who worked for a Chinese student puppy mill did it in King Airs... and he said the goal was to take freshly minted Commercial certificated pilots and get them some fairly low number of turboprop hours before shipping them home, where they'd be put to work immediately in the right seat of a full-sized airliner. The company he worked for, had the two Chinese pilots up front, and the instructor riding middle of the second row of seats so they could "monitor" them, in a non-club seating arranged King Air.
They were "fully rated" so he was supposedly just there to monitor them building time, from a seat where he couldn't have done anything about anything they did wrong, anyway... and he never shared how in the world they got the insurance company to agree to two barely rated Commercial pilots in the front seats of a King Air, but I really don't want to know.
He did it only long enough to get the hours he needed and bailed before, as he puts it, "One of them got me killed..." Proving that even he would also do a deal and dance with the devil for a short time to get hired elsewhere... anywhere really. Quickly. He wasn't even there a year, and I doubt if that organization still exists, any of their instructors are, unless they make the instructors sign contracts. Even then, some may be willing to take the financial hit... hahaha... who knows? That'd be a little too close to "pay to play" for most in the biz, so I doubt it... if it still exists, the instructors probably do their contract time to the second, and have a job lined up to start the next day, somewhere else.
Last I heard, he's flying barbie jets now, and his story is a few years old, back before the regional bonuses and "pilot shortage" really kicked into gear.
GreatLakesFlying
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Would one want to kick a bad student out of the country, in a fit on anger? Maybe. Should one act on that anger and conspire with a fellow worker to kidnap said student? Probably not.
As you indicate, this may be a self-inflicted situation. A flight school desperate for revenue signs a Faustian pact, and can't cope with the consequences. Many colleges in the US found themselves in similar situations in the early 2000s when they opened some "professional MS/MA" programs to international students with poor English skills. Faculty members revolted and administrators were fired. But no one took it on the kids. Some managed to graduate and even get jobs in the US; some failed and returned home.
Moving forward, should the FAA require specific language skills prior to the checkride? Should student pilots have to take TOEFL or a similar exam or provide other documentation of language proficiency?
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
Based on what I see in the classroom, my best guess is that at least some students pay someone to take the TOEFL for them.
GreatLakesFlying
Pre-takeoff checklist
It does happen, but is the incident frequency high enough to ditch the TOEFL as a gatekeeper of English proficiency? In the case of higher education, I can say with some authority that the answer is no. The issue we have in colleges is the low TOEFL score requirement, not the sporadic cheating.
Hypothetically speaking, if TOEFL is not the right gatekeeper, how should we ensure language skills? Delegate the assessment to the consular officers who issue the student visas? (They would love it, I am sure!)
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Clark1961
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FAA requirement for an aviation subset of TOEFL? Maybe. ICAO requirement for an aviation subset of TOEFL? That makes more sense since English is the internationally required language. Maybe some leadership is required by the national aviation authorities in English speaking countries so from that perspective perhaps the FAA should as part of a broad plan of political action. If the FAA tried to do it on their own then flight training for foreign nationals would move elsewhere and the overall problem wouldn’t change even though the local problem would be solved.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I think the problem is not so much their use of English in general, but the comprehension and use of aviation English. Remember when you first heard it? The responsibility should lie with the school, the examiner, or the FAA.
Pilots certified in the US and other English-speaking countries automatically get “English Proficient” on their certificates. People in non-English speaking countries need to test for it, or they don’t get ICAO privileges.
Pilots certified in the US and other English-speaking countries automatically get “English Proficient” on their certificates. People in non-English speaking countries need to test for it, or they don’t get ICAO privileges.
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Yes they would! To them, this would be a revenue opportunity! $$$$
Clark1961
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So maybe an appropriate rule change would be testing requirement based on passport instead of issuing state? No rule is perfect but this would be simple for the administrative types and set clear expectations for students and trainers.
James331
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What went through there head, well they probably didn't want to be responsible for someone who has no business in the air killing himself or worse others, as far as those badges that apparently matter to you so much, I don't care, the government fails again and again and again and people keep crying to the government to "fix" things, it's like asking your neighborhood crackhead for life advice lol
The CFIs saw something that was getting unsafe and stupid, they stepped up, just like how the guy in that TX church shooting didn't just stand by, sip a soy latte and call the police and wait for them to eventually show up to the rescue like some mythical white knight, no he manned up, locked and loaded and saved lives.
Being in the right he was judged accordingly by society afterwards.
I think I do get where you're coming from, working in higher education, especially somewhere like Chicago, you're in a very different line of work and culture, diversify, no student left behind, "inclusion" "diversity" outreach, all these things are rightfully not valued in aviation, you meet XYZ standard and have XYZ hours or you don't, your back story and learning disabilities and nationality don't factor. Fail your biology test you get a F, fail in flying and you get death.
Personally, I could see the school not wanting to expel the student because the management, who don't really care about anything aside from their excel sheets, wanted that money, where as the instructors on the flight line saw where this was going and didn't want this poor bastard lawndarting the plane and/or taking other people out, so they stepped up.
Fact is, if he was grounded based on not being able to cut the proverbial mustard, and since he was in the US only to lean to fly, well no reason for him to be in the US anymore. Bye Felicia
Push a international student through to get a BS in BS, meh, ok
But you DONT try to push a dodo bird through aviation, if you wouldn't trust your kids in the plane with the guy after he got his PPL, you have no business trying to move him through.
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If we assume that these instructors were justified in wanting to keep this student out of the air, the fact remains remains that their methods were less than successful. How should they have proceeded to achieve a successful result?
denverpilot
Tied Down
Probably not. I was just pointing out the likelihood that there’s something clouding their judgement, like not being able to eat and having to fold their business. People do dumb stuff when they’re bankrupt.
Welcome to the aviation training biz, where most of the good businesses are within 90 days of bankruptcy at all times and bad ones 30 or less.
Signing bad contracts with China is only the tip of that iceberg.
1RTK1
Pattern Altitude
Oh I have a similar one, I'll try and make it short.
We had a local guy that fancied himself a singer, unfortunately he was semi homeless and bat sh$t crazy. He used to walk down the middle of the streets singing and dancing. Most people in town were afraid he would really snap some day and hurt someone. A local individual went to all the businesses and collected money so they could buy him a one way ticket to Nashville so he could realize his dream.
All went well for a year or so until a news paper found out, then it hit the fan.
You see he was a convicted felon on probation, A local off duty policeman IN a local police car took this gentleman to the bus station, of course the officer knew this was violating his parole. The homeless singer is back and never realized his dream of becoming a country star........
We had a local guy that fancied himself a singer, unfortunately he was semi homeless and bat sh$t crazy. He used to walk down the middle of the streets singing and dancing. Most people in town were afraid he would really snap some day and hurt someone. A local individual went to all the businesses and collected money so they could buy him a one way ticket to Nashville so he could realize his dream.
All went well for a year or so until a news paper found out, then it hit the fan.
You see he was a convicted felon on probation, A local off duty policeman IN a local police car took this gentleman to the bus station, of course the officer knew this was violating his parole. The homeless singer is back and never realized his dream of becoming a country star........
James331
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Well at least they tried, which is more than I could say for any of the badges or money hungry mangement, frankly if the story is as it seemed, I'd nullify if I was on the jury.
Had someone put that Asian girl in that YouTube link on a plane early on she would still be alive, the only positive in that was that she killed herself before she got to the point that she had pax aboard.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
Mr. Tanner was a cleaner
From a town in the Midwest
And of all the cleaning shops around
He’d made his the best
But he also was a baritone
Who sang while hanging clothes
He practiced scales while pressing tails
And sang at local shows
...
RIP Mr. Chapin
Everskyward
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Everskyward
IMO, they did something stupid and illegal, and I hope they face the consequences. There are other ways .
denverpilot
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I agree with your assessment of illegal and stupid. I’d love to hear what your “other ways” are, though.
There’s not a regulatory agency that would touch the situation with a ten foot pole, since the student is doing nothing wrong, and the assumption they didn’t try numerous “other ways” is probably also false.
People don’t get that desperate until they’ve tried other things. I doubt they felt they had any options or they’d have taken them.
What would you suggest?
My suggestion would be not to enter into bad contracts with the Chinese in the first place, but they’re well beyond that stage.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
If the student or students are a hazard, turn the school in to the FAA.
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Drake the Outlaw
Which then falls back on the instructors who are already being pressed by the flight schools.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
True, but that is a better solution than attempting to kidnap and deport people when you have no authority to do so. The flight instructor does have the authority to refuse a signoff.
denverpilot
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Not really. Your "solution" didn't work.
FAA doesn't care if the bad student stays and acquires continuous never-ending training and never gets good enough for a sign-off.
Try again. You haven't provided a workable solution yet.
Everskyward
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If people go further up the ladder, maybe it will. But someone needs to go to the trouble of documenting how certain regs have been broken and safety has been compromised because of poor communication.
James331
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And if your wife or kid went for a ride with one of these crashes waiting to happen and they, as they will, piled in, OR if they midaired into you, I'm thinking you'd be singing a different tune.
Also how is it stupid to put your arse in the line to try to prevent a obviously soon to be loss of life?
Everskyward
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No I would't. I don't believe in vigilantism.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Not likely. What department at FAA handles “we signed a horrible contract and are providing housing for a foreign national who will never learn to fly?”
I haven’t seen one on their new org chart at the FSDO, or whatever they’re calling those these days.
You don’t run a business on “maybe” anyway.
All your solution does is put a spotlight on the instructors and serves to do absolutely nothing about the business problem they signed up for. It would simply hasten the closing and bankruptcy of the school, which is now still likely to happen anyway, but I can see why they wouldn’t choose it as an option.
Bye bye puppy mill number ten thousand to fail...
They probably thought they could lie to the student about some “emergency” back home or something and get them to board a flight, and it got out of hand. Went over the “kidnapping” line somewhere along the line.
And the media is likely pushing the kidnapping story pretty hard for clickbait, too. Just a guess. Doesn’t sound like the bound the student, drugged them, and threw them in the trunk of the car, after all. They didn’t even reach Bill Cosby or Weinstein’s levels of inappropriate behavior yet... hahaha.
Desperate businesses and owners do desperate things all the time. It’s really no surprise in aviation, considering how desperate and poorly paid the training segment of the business can be.
But FAA doesn’t care on this one.
Want a really hard truth? China would definitely toss any American on to a flight home with the blessing of governmental bureaucrats if the roles were reversed. You really want to behave like them? They’re not exactly the world’s shining example of human rights protection by government.
I’m not sure you really want FAA or any “people further up the ladder” deporting the poor dear student who’s just “living the dream”, do you?
Your call, but getting a “higher up” in government involved in that private contract dispute is probably not going to lead to a solution anyone involved actually wants.
About the only government agency that could possibly help is a low level translator at the State department telling the student they have to go home a failure and watching the student realize they’ll probably not have a very good life back home after such a loss of face and shame.
And it would only help the school temporarily.
Student isn’t going to accept that. Nor will their sponsors, likely parents with political connections.
School would lose the contract. Which seems to be the final outcome of this chess game, no matter how they play this one. If they really did sign a bad contract, they sealed their fate on the day they did that. No school passes everyone in aviation, and there’s no participation trophies for foreign students who have to have their government’s blessing to even attempt to fly airplanes with serious consequences for them and their entire family if they fail.
denverpilot
Tied Down
You added that regs have been broken after I quoted your post @Everskyward.
What reg has been broken? Student hasn’t been signed off for a certificate anywhere that I see.
Training can last forever and the FAA doesn’t care. Not a regulatory problem at all.
What reg has been broken? Student hasn’t been signed off for a certificate anywhere that I see.
Training can last forever and the FAA doesn’t care. Not a regulatory problem at all.
James331
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Kidnapped? Oh the mellow drama, I doubt he was stuffed into a trunk, guessing they drove him to the airport and when the guy finally figured out what was going on he copped a fit and cried to the "authorities".
Also what are you going to tell the FAA, no FARs have been broken until someone is pressured to let the little dodo bird loose and he gets himself and/or others killed.
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