"Just following the checklist"

Timbeck2

Timbeck2

Final Approach
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Timbeck2
This should be in the pet peeves thread but it deserves it's own since I'm sure there are similar stories out there.

I switched runways from 30 to 12 (I'm in the tower) and notified all concerned. Thirty minutes later I get a call from the MOCC (maintenance ops center, the guys who track all the maintenance on all aircraft on the field) as follows:

"Yes, this is sergeant so and so from the MOCC."
"Yes?"
"I just wanted to let you know that we've changed runways so runway one two is now in use."
"You know that you're calling the tower don't you?"
"Yes, I'm just following the checklist."
"Your checklist requires you to call the facility that switches the runways to tell them that the runway has changed?"
"Yes."
"You probably need to get that checklist changed."
"I'm just following protocol sir, I understand.."
"No, I don't think you do. There is no need to call the tower to let them know the runway has changed when its the tower's job to change it."
(silence then) "Can I get your initials?"
"You need my initials for your checklist?"
"Yes sir."
"Tell you what, have your supervisor or branch chief call me and I'll give him my initials."
"He's not in and won't be in until tomorrow morning."
"I'll wait."
"Can I get your initials?"
"No." (I hang up.)
 
The continuous dumbing down of America.
 
He's got one of them thar gubmint jobs!! :eek:
 
30 minutes!!!??? He should have called you a lot sooner. What if you changed runways again in the meantime?

CBSigh.png
 
It's really dumb but it is possible the caller thinks it is just as dumb and still has to do it. Agree with doing whatever you can to get the checklist changed but I might have been a touch friendlier with the guy and given my initials (at least this one time) - seems like you'd have a better chance of getting the procedure changed if the ops center likes the tower folk. But I wasn't there, maybe the guy was being an ass and it doesnt come through on the internet.
 
Another story but shorter. When I was in Korea there were several areas that were just downright dangerous in the pattern at Osan Air Base. When I asked other controllers with authority to change things what was being done about it, they said, "Sure its bad but I can live with anything for a year." Laziness is rampant in the Air Force. If there was something I could change to make it better for the next guy, I would.

To respond to your comment Rudy. It was a mid shift, I hate mid shifts. It was stupid and I hate stupid. Your comment of "seems like you'd have a better chance of getting the procedure changed if the ops center likes the tower folk." made me laugh. I don't work for them and all it takes is ONE phone call telling them that their idiotic phone call takes attention away from the tower folks and could potentially cause them miss something really important.

Example: The cops, oh excuse me, the security police used to call us up and ask for the wind speed and direction. Lazy controllers would simply give them what they want and hang up. This irked me so after several times of listening to this conversation between the cops and my flight data controller I got curious and called them back from the supervisor position. The conversation went something like this:

"Security Forces Sergeant Fleekandorf." (yeah I made it up but was the same voice that made the call to flight data)
"Yes sir, this is Tim Becker, watch sup in the tower."
"What can I do for you?"
"I'm curious as to why you guys call us up for the wind speed and direction."
"Oh that's just in case we ever have to cordon an area off."
"I thought the fire department did that. Can you give me an example?"
"Oh they do but sometimes, we do it for chemical spills."
"Chemical spills...how many chemical spills we get on base?"
"Well none, its mainly for spills at the hospital."
"You cordon off areas at the hospital for spills."
"Sometimes."
"You do know that the hospital is almost two miles away from from the airfield don't you?"
"Yes."
"And you know that the wind speed and direction is taken from the middle of the airfield right?"
"Yes."
"And these chemical spills at the hospital, are they outside."
"No, they're inside."
"So let me get this straight, you guys need wind speed and direction from sensors that are two miles away for a spill that occurred indoors?"
"I know it sounds silly but we brief this at every shift."
"What, the wind speed and direction?"
"And your shift is how long?"
"We are on eight hour shifts now but sometimes we work twelve but sometimes we call again if we need it immediately."
"Okay so again, let me get this straight, you guys call the tower for wind information that is up to twelve hours old for an indoor chemical spill?"
"Yes, see we need it...."
"I'm going to give you the number to base weather. From now on you guys can call them if you need wind speed and direction." You can't be bugging my flight data controller for crap like this."

Now for those of you who are thinking, "Boy what a dick, all they want is wind speed and direction." I say this.

1. On more than one occasion (okay, two exactly) on a shift in which I was watch supervisor. This particular type of phone call caused a flight data controller to lose focus on a situation in which they had to ring out the crash phone immediately. Once I rang it from the watch supervisor position and the other I got into the controller's ear (we can do that...really) and told them to hang up because we had an emergency and that they needed to ring the crash phone. And wouldn't you know it, as the crash phone was being rang out, the security forces line is ringing again with the same dumbassed question.

2. I've only had one HATR (hazardous air traffic report) filed on a crew I was supervising my entire ATC career and it was because of the telephone. I took a call coordinating something for the pilot for the day program. (a program where they take terminally ill kids and make them pilot of the day which entails giving them a flight suit, taking them to see the airplane, fly the simulator and tour the tower, etc.) When I hung up, I had a substandard controller monitoring a bad trainee in local (the position that you guys talk to when you talk to tower) and suddenly we had airplanes going all over the place and one PO'd pilot who was given an impossible instruction which almost cost him his life. I had to play catch up and then transmit from the watch supervisor position to get it all sorted out. I vowed from that day that if it looks like we're going to get busy to let the phone ring or take it off the hook, which I do to this day.
 
Don't know which is worse...following known bad procedures, or ignoring them.

especially when the people ignoring them because they're bad are the ones who wrote them.
 
I don't know what this says about me, but I can think of legitimate reasons for having a step like this. My unit did something similar when we were on 60-minute recall as a QRF battalion after 9/11. We had a calling tree for getting everyone to the battalion area within the recall window. When the company CQ desk received the order, they would call the top of each platoon branch, and down the tree it went. The CQ would receive calls from those at the end of each branch, letting them know the alert propagated through the unit. Of course, today you would probably text everyone at once.

Now, it doesn't serve much purpose if the person you close the loop with isn't in on the scheme, and I have no idea why it would be useful in your case.
 
Timbeck2 said:
(silence then) "Can I get your initials?"
"You need my initials for your checklist?"
"Yes sir."
"Tell you what, have your supervisor or branch chief call me and I'll give him my initials."
"He's not in and won't be in until tomorrow morning."
"I'll wait."
"Can I get your initials?"
Click to expand...

"Initials are F.U."
 
I thought it was required to give your initials when asked. Guess I'm misinformed.

Either the guy was reading something incorrectly or poorly trained. How did he know the airport was turned in the first place?
Regardless, if it is truly a checklist issue (which I highly doubt, especially since this is your first call??) it's not the guys fault. It's the person who wrote, and approved the checklist.
 
MOCC is responsible for getting the arming/dearm crews to the respective runway in use. We are required to call three agencies when we switch runways, the Tracon, Operations and weather. Ops calls a lot more people than we do and they take care of calling MOCC. As for giving my initials being mandatory, it may be for another ATC facility but not for non-ATC. But either way, it is recorded and there are position logs to determine who was in what position when the call came in.

Checklists are not written in stone for a reason. Things change for the better usually but in this case, for worse.
 
"Its on the checklist".... I saw a little bit of this last night dealing with college educated health professionals "following protocol" rather than looking at the big picture. My head wanted to explode about the 4th time I heard "its in the protocol" and they were doing things to my patient that were not in their best interest....
 
You really need to go to the source and find out why it's on the checklist, or if it's just an error of some sort.
 
I passed it on to the chief controller, that's his bailiwick. As a former chief controller I'd be on that like stink on poo.
 
Doggtyred said:
"Its on the checklist".... I saw a little bit of this last night dealing with college educated health professionals "following protocol" rather than looking at the big picture. My head wanted to explode about the 4th time I heard "its in the protocol" and they were doing things to my patient that were not in their best interest....
Click to expand...

You should see what the non-college-educated health professionals do! ;)
 
99: Usual procedure?
CHIEF: Naturally, three copies of the report.
99: File the master copy and burn the other two.
CHIEF: Of course.
99: Chief, I've been meaning to ask you about that. Why do we bother making extra copies when all we do is destroy them?
CHIEF: That's security procedure, 99.
99: Doesn't it strike you as being a little odd?
CHIEF: Well I used to think so too, but well it's all carefully explained in the Control Standard Procedure Handbook.
99: Oh, may I have a look at that handbook some time?
CHIEF: No, I'm afraid not, 99.
99: Why not?
CHIEF: We burned it.
 
Kritchlow said:
I thought it was required to give your initials when asked. Guess I'm misinformed.

Either the guy was reading something incorrectly or poorly trained. How did he know the airport was turned in the first place?
Regardless, if it is truly a checklist issue (which I highly doubt, especially since this is your first call??) it's not the guys fault. It's the person who wrote, and approved the checklist.
Click to expand...

I don't know how that got started with the initials thing. I've heard pilots say "Ask the controller for their initials." No obligation as a controller to give their initials to a pilot or anyone calling on a phone.

Landline (inter phone) format, you do terminate the call with your initials. Only other time I can think of is crash phone:

"This is a test, this is a test, this is the tower with the daily crash phone test. All stations acknowledge with your operating initials when called. Do not secure this line until told to do so. Crash crew....."
 
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It's also completely spurious. All you need to know is the time and frequency if you want to make an issue. No need to escalate things by asking for initials.
The only other I've used it is to ask if one of my buddies was on shirt that day. Is "DC" there?
 
Just wanted Ron to know that I got the Get Smart reference. ;) "The Craw?"

<--owns the entire series but admits that it was funnier in the 70's.
 
That was from the second season. Perils in a Pet Shop.
 
Velocity173 said:
I don't know how that got started with the initials thing. I've heard pilots say "Ask the controller for their initials." No obligation as a controller to give their initials to a pilot or anyone calling on a phone.

Landline (inter phone) format, you do terminate the call with your initials. Only other time I can think of is crash phone:

"This is a test, this is a test, this is the tower with the daily crash phone test. All stations acknowledge with your operating initials when called. Do not secure this line until told to do so. Crash crew....."
Click to expand...
I believe you.. But we had a Fed in the jumpseat tell me to ask for the controllers initials. Sure enough, the controller gave them.
 
The FED should have known better. Congrats to ATC for just giving some rather than escalating the situation over the air.
 
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