It aint the Sound of Freedom....

murphey

murphey

Touchdown! Greaser!
PoA Supporter
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
11,878
Location
Colorado
Display Name
Display name:
murphey
Not late at night and not over very highly populated areas.

Two F18s just landed at KAPA (centennial, south side of Denver) for fuel and RON. The airport is about 5 nm south of the reservoir, and I live a couple miles north of that, but still under the approach to 17. I've never objected to any aircraft (other than the police helo because it's got the souped up engine that rattles the house), neither do the other folk around here. South side of the reservoir? Well, someone stupid built $5M homes there about 5 yrs ago (the airport's been there since 1968).

About the only thing the F18s didn't have on were the afterburners. Loud? Every dog in the neighborhood was barking and anyone asleep, sorry, wakey wakey. I was outside and had to stick fingers in ears it was so loud.

On a whim I called the ops line and while I was talking to the guys in the office one of them mentioned in the space of 10 minutes they had over 20 calls complaining about the noise. The ops guys didn't know they were F18s and were going to call over the AF base. Told them no reason, they're Navy, just passing thru and Buckley knows nothing about them.

Gee, glad I didn't go to sleep early tonight - should have, since I've got Young Eagles in the morning.
 
FWIW, I used to live under the approach to the cross-wind runways at ORD.

Never minded the noise, until the 767 arriving late one night spooled up to full power at 3AM and physically blew me out of bed.
 
If something wakes me up at night, the quickest way to get back to sleep is to go back to sleep, not a phone campaign followed by complaints on POA ;)
 
The base commander at Moffet NAS asked if we could go somewhere else with our EA-6Bs back in the day(night actually). We were doing inter-service ops that had us back landing at 2:A.M, I kid you not.

On top of it we usually flew a lower profile, up on the power, Tacan approach to get in. It was only for a week or two. We ended up moving to Travis AFB. They don't come much louder than the Prowler.

Some infrequent noise from a working hour F-18 arrival shouldn't irritate to many.
 
We try to fly quiet departures. Our operations manual even has a procedure for quiet hour departures. If we are in a congested area we try to fly it as much as possible. Sometimes you can't based on weight or other factors so you just bite the bullet and max perform the jet, all the while laughing knowing the 24 hour public affairs folks at the base are going to be getting noise complaint calls all night.
 
warthog1984 said:
High Power Approaches? Usually the military does Fly Quiet at night, if for nothing else than to not disturb the active duty folks sleeping.
Click to expand...

Sometimes they get low on their approach and need to throttle up.:rofl:

Oceanside Marina on Stock Island is right under one of the approaches to NAS Boca Chica, and EVERYBODY comes down to practice in the winter, even the B-1Bs and C-5As.

One morning we were loading out the dive boat under low ceilings, very low, and we could hear planes on the ILS above us; then the thunder started but didn't stop and I looked up and there was a Tomcat standing on burner to keep out of the mast tops.:lol:
 
Buckley appears to be the better choice especially since it's military fuel. Still, 20 calls for two Hornets? That's funny. Imagine living on base or just outside base where afterburner is used and multiple approaches are authorized. As our sign said at the front gate if NBC "The noise you hear is the sound of freedom." Now that they're just getting F-35s, they'll be plenty of freedom to go around.
 
Velocity173 said:
Buckley appears to be the better choice especially since it's military fuel.
Click to expand...

Tacair has a government gas contract so no big deal there. Arrival at Buckley would be a one time thing since their runway is out of service right now. Anyway, no one goes to Buckley other than Obama, Air Guard, or National Guard...
 
Clark1961 said:
Tacair has a government gas contract so no big deal there. Arrival at Buckley would be a one time thing since their runway is out of service right now. Anyway, no one goes to Buckley other than Obama, Air Guard, or National Guard...
Click to expand...

Well, I don't know how much emphasis Navy puts on going military over civ but we (Army) were "encouraged" to. Fuel stop was 1) military 2) contract 3) non contract in that order.

Fuel is part of it but availability of maintenance, security, food (chow hall), lodging are all taken into consideration. Of course with military base you don't run the risk of people complaining about your noise either.

That being said, there were plenty of times military bases just didn't meet our route needs so we went with the nearest civ field.
 
Last edited:
warthog1984 said:
High Power Approaches? Usually the military does Fly Quiet at night, if for nothing else than to not disturb the active duty folks sleeping.
Click to expand...
Hornets are just not quiet airplanes....even on final approach.

We did a lot of plane guard ops on the destroyer and Hornets were by far the loudest thing in the inventory. Twice as loud as a Tomcat on final. For night ops we would position behind the carrier and slightly right to line up with the final approach course which brought everything directly overtop. If you were on the bridge wing when a hornet flew over....you better have some good hearing protection.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Hornets are just not quiet airplanes....even on final approach.

We did a lot of plane guard ops on the destroyer and Hornets were by far the loudest thing in the inventory. Twice as loud as a Tomcat on final. For night ops we would position behind the carrier and slightly right to line up with the final approach course which brought everything directly overtop. If you were on the bridge wing when a hornet flew over....you better have some good hearing protection.
Click to expand...

What was the reasoning for positioning right there?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Hornets are just not quiet airplanes....even on final approach.

We did a lot of plane guard ops on the destroyer and Hornets were by far the loudest thing in the inventory. Twice as loud as a Tomcat on final. For night ops we would position behind the carrier and slightly right to line up with the final approach course which brought everything directly overtop. If you were on the bridge wing when a hornet flew over....you better have some good hearing protection.
Click to expand...

Try the old F-4s. :eek:
 
Velocity173 said:
Well, I don't know how much emphasis Navy puts on going military over civ but we (Army) were "encouraged" to. Fuel stop was 1) military 2) contract 3) non contract in that order.

Fuel is part of it but availability of maintenance, security, food (chow hall), lodging are all taken into consideration. Of course with military base you don't run the risk of people complaining about your noise either.

That being said, there were plenty of times military bases just didn't meet our route needs so we went with the nearest civ field.
Click to expand...

I don't know policy at all, just know what I've seen. When I was based at BJC, Navy aircraft parked near mine was a fairly common event. They would also shoot multiple approaches there. I've heard that military aircraft at APA is common. With Buckley and Peterson nearby, the military choice would be easy if it was required.
 
Henning said:
What was the reasoning for positioning right there?
Click to expand...

Visual aid.

The plane guard stations are designed to create a visual reference. Day ops typically use a standard VFR traffic pattern. Aircraft will enter upwind on the stbd side of the carrier and fly a basic rectangle. The plane guard ship will be positioned offset to port behind the carrier and aircraft will usually turn base across or right in front of the now of the destroyer.

Night pattern is different. Aircraft will be vectored from the marshall stack to a long final. With the destroyer placed offset to the right and in line with the carrier's flight deck it creates a visual range.....assuming the destroyer can maintain position while the bird farm hunts winds.

Night is like seeing arriving traffic to a major class B. If you go on the stbd bridge wing and look aft, you'll see a long line of landing lights.
 
Interesting, thanks. So at night yo present an extended centerline and day the base turn reference.
 
sourdough44 said:
The base commander at Moffet NAS asked if we could go somewhere else with our EA-6Bs back in the day(night actually). We were doing inter-service ops that had us back landing at 2:A.M, I kid you not.

On top of it we usually flew a lower profile, up on the power, Tacan approach to get in. It was only for a week or two. We ended up moving to Travis AFB. They don't come much louder than the Prowler.

Some infrequent noise from a working hour F-18 arrival shouldn't irritate to many.
Click to expand...
I lived under the dep/app in Ft Worth for months and neither theF16s nor the 48 B52s leaving/returning every day bothered me, it was a great air show at the pool.
 
Velocity173 said:
Buckley appears to be the better choice especially since it's military fuel. Still, 20 calls for two Hornets? That's funny. Imagine living on base or just outside base where afterburner is used and multiple approaches are authorized. As our sign said at the front gate if NBC "The noise you hear is the sound of freedom." Now that they're just getting F-35s, they'll be plenty of freedom to go around.
Click to expand...
Buckley is AF. Navy is just XC to the coast and Jet Center has the contract.
 
Clark1961 said:
Tacair has a government gas contract so no big deal there. Arrival at Buckley would be a one time thing since their runway is out of service right now. Anyway, no one goes to Buckley other than Obama, Air Guard, or National Guard...
Click to expand...
Buckley's back up and running. Even has a cable at the approach end of 32 if ever needed.
 
It's the sound of your tax dollars going out the tailpipe.
 
I saw F-18s at Centennial last week parked at Denver Jet. Someone told me that they had seen one accelerate down the runway and do an unrestricted climb out of sight. Of course that was during the day...

But I can agree that they are noisy, even when you would think they were trying to be somewhat quiet. I have seen and heard the Blue Angels fly over the residential areas of San Francisco in the days prior to the Fleet Week show. Even though they were probably only enroute to check out the area where the show is located, they were loud enough for me to think, "holy crap, what is that?" In fact I was puzzled why they fly over the neighborhoods instead of staying out over the ocean which is only a mile or two away.

As a comparison, F-16s from Buckley sometimes fly over my house at about the same altitude and, while loud, they don't seem as loud as those F-18s.
 
Last edited:
murphey said:
Buckley is AF. Navy is just XC to the coast and Jet Center has the contract.
Click to expand...

Yeah I've experienced the politics of contract operations. The contractor complains that they were promised X number gallons sold per month and they weren't getting it. Then the chain of command comes down and says "Ok guys, we need to start using XYZ airfield more to retain our contract there."
 
murphey said:
I lived under the dep/app in Ft Worth for months and neither theF16s nor the 48 B52s leaving/returning every day bothered me, it was a great air show at the pool.
Click to expand...

Same here. The cool thing about Carswell being a Joint Reserve Base is that we get the whole gamut. We lived further away for about 7 years, and we all missed the jet noise. We're loving being back.

Wait until you hear the F-35. That P&W f-135 is LOUD. There is no mistaking that plane when it flies over.
 
The A/FD might provide the answer as to why they didn't use Buckley.

Buckley's operating hours might not have fit their schedule.
MILITARY REMARKS: Attended Mon–Thur 1200–1200Z‡, Fri–Sun 1200–0400Z‡

FUEL Avbl Sun–Mon 1500–2200Z‡, Tue–Sat 1330–0130Z‡. A++
​

Maybe they didn't request a PPR in time.
PPR, for all acft except base assigned, DSN 847–9650/9651/9652, C720–847–9650/9651/9652. Minimum 24 hour notice required and no more than 7 days prior to arrival.​
 
We purchased our house (knowingly) on the right base leg for Rwy 28 at Dobbins ARB.

We've seen everything from B-1's, B-2's, F-22's, bunches of Lockheed transports, etc. The loudest three by far have been the B-1, F-22, and the JStars that was doing touch and goes a week or so ago. He must have been doing currency work for a planeload of people, because they shot 10 or more T&G's and it lasted until 10:30 at night.

I ain't complaining...
 
Last edited:
One of the pilots mentioned once that landing APA means per diem. And if you have a buddy with a couch, that means free beer. ;)

Couldn't tell ya if he was serious or not, but I doubt the BOQ at BKF is better than beer and a couch. :)
 
kkoran said:
The A/FD might provide the answer as to why they didn't use Buckley.

Buckley's operating hours might not have fit their schedule.
MILITARY REMARKS: Attended Mon–Thur 1200–1200Z‡, Fri–Sun 1200–0400Z‡

FUEL Avbl Sun–Mon 1500–2200Z‡, Tue–Sat 1330–0130Z‡. A++
​
Maybe they didn't request a PPR in time.
PPR, for all acft except base assigned, DSN 847–9650/9651/9652, C720–847–9650/9651/9652. Minimum 24 hour notice required and no more than 7 days prior to arrival.​
Click to expand...

Unless based at Buckley or a *very* unusual circumstance, neither Navy nor other USAF goes to Buckley. EnRoute Navy does not go to Buckley.
 
denverpilot said:
One of the pilots mentioned once that landing APA means per diem. And if you have a buddy with a couch, that means free beer. ;)

Couldn't tell ya if he was serious or not, but I doubt the BOQ at BKF is better than beer and a couch. :)
Click to expand...

The hotel at KAPA has a great rate for the military. Plus there are two bars at the airport, altho at the time last night, don't know if they were still open.
 
Here are the "offenders;" I just took this at KAPA about an hour ago. They look and sound beautiful to me. BTW, I live probably 1 or 2 miles west of the OP and I didn't hear them, but I'm a very sound sleeper!

hornets-XL.jpg
 
They just departed KAPA heading north, and this time they flew right over my house. Very loud and very awesome!
 
I'm always baffled by people who are annoyed by the sound of airplanes that buy houses near long established airports, and then complain about the airplane noise.
 
Slipkid65 said:
I'm always baffled by people who are annoyed by the sound of airplanes that buy houses near long established airports, and then complain about the airplane noise.
Click to expand...


This is true, and KAPA certainly has had that problem in spades... But operating F/A-18s out of KAPA is a relatively new thing.

The only nice part about it is it's a hell of a lot more noise than forgetting to pull the prop back on a 182. Hopefully the overly-sensitive will just move. Ha.
 
warthog1984 said:
I agree people who live near airports shouldn't complain about normal airport noise, but 10PM-8AM or so really needs to be Fly Quiet as much as possible. And the same goes for other loud noises.
Click to expand...

So this navy unit was supposed to abort or delay a mission for a day in order for the sensitive ears around kapa to be spared ?

My apartment looks out on the airport, if I hear unusual aircraft music late in the evening I am out on the deck trying to see what it is.
 
Everskyward said:
I saw F-18s at Centennial last week parked at Denver Jet. Someone told me that they had seen one accelerate down the runway and do an unrestricted climb out of sight. Of course that was during the day...



As a comparison, F-16s from Buckley sometimes fly over my house at about the same altitude and, while loud, they don't seem as loud as those F-18s.
Click to expand...


Many times it works better when leaving large congested areas for us to do an unrestricted climb on takeoff. Controllers that aren't used to our speeds (and UHF comm) like it better if we just climb right into tc lass A directly over the field instead of dealing with sequencing us. (Or so they tell us...)

1 engine is quieter than two.
 
EvilEagle said:
Many times it works better when leaving large congested areas for us to do an unrestricted climb on takeoff. Controllers that aren't used to our speeds (and UHF comm) like it better if we just climb right into tc lass A directly over the field instead of dealing with sequencing us. (Or so they tell us...)

1 engine is quieter than two.
Click to expand...

Unrestricted climbs were a godsend on approach! Problem was center being able to approve them. A lot of times I would get an "unable" or something weak like 150. Then they're ignore the "flash" which just delays the inevitable.

Had a Hornet (VMFA-533) once taking up a Venezualan General for a fam ride. Requested something like 330. Center came back with 230. Got radar off the end of the runway, probably went up at 2 miles and 450kts. Just as he was approaching 230 center calls "three three zero for Hawk 55." I hadn't even finished issuing the climb yet and he was already going thru 230! Don't remember what his ft per sweep was but it was crazy. Probably all within 5 miles of the air station.
 
EvilEagle said:
Many times it works better when leaving large congested areas for us to do an unrestricted climb on takeoff. Controllers that aren't used to our speeds (and UHF comm) like it better if we just climb right into tc lass A directly over the field instead of dealing with sequencing us. (Or so they tell us...)

1 engine is quieter than two.
Click to expand...

I remember seeing an F-18 departing Lambert St. Louis once in a fairly steep climb (I was on the interstate next to the airport). Mentioned it to a buddy of mine who works for Boeing and he said something along these lines. Basically it was to get out of the way of commercial traffic as quickly as possible.

Don't know how accurate that statement is, but it sounded plausible at the time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top