Is this considered "structural"?

Checkout_my_Six said:
If striking the tail is the litmus test to being Critical then anything forward of the tail would be considered safety critical and we know that's not the case.
Click to expand...

What is "not the case"? That anything that could possibly depart the aircraft in flight is not critical? :dunno:

FWIW in this case the door isn't going to come off due to that crack and that crack is not there because of any in flight loads imposed on the door. That crack is there because the door was either misaligned or something jammed up the hinge and it was attempted to force it shut. In my opinion you could just stop drill it but please let's not go spooging JB-Weld all over everything under the misconception that's gonna "fix" it :rolleyes:
 
Tom-D said:
I asked for your reasoning in saying it wasn't structural. IAW the reference you gave it is.

I still don't believe it is fuselage structure, or critical to flight.

One might ask, if it isn't carrying a load, why did it crack?

You've already seen my advice as how to repair, so I'll not go there again.

OBTW, the component they speak of is the door.
Click to expand...

OBTW, did you just figure that out?

The corner of the door has obviously been reworked. There are file marks on the skin edge that draw filing would have alleviated. I don't believe it would have come from the manufacturer that way. The crack probably occurred when the corner was straightened. It's too bad there aren't more pictures. Of course, the reference I gave is open to interpretation. If the damage is limited to the crack shown, IT IS limited to SURFACE structure. I consider the crack to be small. The door is comprised of numerous structural parts, outer skin, inner skin, frames or ribs, intercostals or longerons or stringers, ect. It's my determination; that small crack is negligible and does not affect the integrity of the structure. I would have just stop drilled it and frequently reinspected it. That being; my aircraft with my A&P.
 
Last edited:
GlennAB1 said:
OBTW, did you just figure that out?

The corner of the door has obviously been reworked. There are file marks on the skin edge that draw filing would have alleviated. I don't believe it would have come from the manufacturer that way. The crack probably occurred when the corner was straightened. It's too bad there aren't more pictures. Of course, the reference I gave is open to interpretation. If the damage is limited to the crack shown, IT IS limited to SURFACE structure. I consider the crack to be small. The door is comprised of numerous structural parts, outer skin, inner skin, frames or ribs, intercostals or longerons or stringers, ect. It's my determination; that small crack is negligible and does not affect the integrity of the structure. I would have just stop drilled it and frequently reinspected it. That being; my aircraft with my A&P.
Click to expand...
In many cases the crack will relieve the stress that caused it. Until I knew that was or was not the case I'd leave it alone.

Piper's fit and finish is not all that great, they often simply leave the edges of the stamping as it came off the machine. time is money to them.
 
Cause of the crack was the door seal used. When I bought the plane a year ago, the door seal was dried out, cracked and missing in areas. I bought the door seal from Aircraft Door Seals, Inc. Their "new" L-shaped door seal. Supposed to be the be-all, to end-all. Well, after installed, the door was way too tight. The directions called for shimming the clevis pins from behind, if the door does not close. I had 3 washers behind the lower hinge to get it so I could close it! I contacted the company and they told me it will be like that at first and to close the door, latch it and let it compress and mold to the door frame. I did that and after a week, it was molded, but a ***** to latch and unlatch. I called them back and they said it will continue to compress and all will be fine. Well, a year of compressing did not work. The door was still tight as hell. I decided to pull that crap off and install the P-type T-9088 that Piper recommended. When I pulled the door off, cleaned it up and refitted the door without the seal, I noticed it was springy. I pulled the door and looked closely at it and found the crack. That crack was not there prior to changing the seal.
 
My honest opinion, as an A&P is that you're fine and there is no danger of anything catastrophic happening. Even the welding is not going to cause any trouble. Trying to get a letter from Piper will probably be a challenge, more likely an exercise in frustration. My experience with that sort of thing is that Cessna and Piper are pretty dodgy when it comes to putting their stamp on repairs. They'd obviously rather sell you a new door. The best route would be simple references from the SRM or AC 43-13. It's a minor repair which, as Tom said, could even just be left alone.
 
Already contacted Piper about a letter and they won't do it. I have an IA that is going to take a look at it on the 18th, when he gets back from Hong Kong. He looked at the pictures and didn't see it as an issue. He just wants to check the legality of it before signing off on it. If he signs off on it, then problem solved and that's that.
 
Silvaire said:
Trying to get a letter from Piper will probably be a challenge, more likely an exercise in frustration. My experience with that sort of thing is that Cessna and Piper are pretty dodgy when it comes to putting their stamp on repairs.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by "their stamp on repairs" but every day emails (memos) from OEMs for things such as fastener substitutions, base material composition for welded repairs, base material composition and head nods for field fabrication of parts due to none being in stock, accepting components as-is that are damaged, repair guidance when there is none in the maintenance manuals, evaluation of damaged parts when no data is in the maintenance manuals, clarifying parts manual issues, research and identification of damaged parts that are contained in a larger assembly and not depicted in maintenance or parts manuals, proper orientation of bolts when the parts manual is incorrect, the list goes on and on.

For most aircraft used to make money, they simply wouldn't be in service without OEM support.

(This doesn't even touch major repair support data that indeed has the OEM brands on the documents and their approval of that data)
 
Last edited:
Does it require an IA to sign off on this?

What would the IA place in the maintenance records as a return to service entry.

The more people involved with this, the bigger the mess becomes.

If I were the IA, I'd take a look, advise, and never place my certificate at risk by approving no maintenance required.

If you can find a stupid IA that will approve it for return to service, good luck, how will you handle the next IA ? Remember when we sign off the annual as airworthy, we except all previous repairs as airworthy.
 
GlennAB1 said:
If he signs off on it be prepared $$ and he'll probably want to do your future inspections. I would.
Click to expand...

It'll be cheaper than a new door. He's in my neighborhood, so giving him the future inspections is no problem.
 
Tom-D said:
Does it require an IA to sign off on this?

What would the IA place in the maintenance records as a return to service entry.

The more people involved with this, the bigger the mess becomes.

If I were the IA, I'd take a look, advise, and never place my certificate at risk by approving no maintenance required.

If you can find a stupid IA that will approve it for return to service, good luck, how will you handle the next IA ? Remember when we sign off the annual as airworthy, we except all previous repairs as airworthy.
Click to expand...

No, it's a minor repair. Who's ever going to see the maintenance entry? Does the door seal cover the area and does the door seal come off for annuals?
 
No. That is undocumented maintenance and illegal. Make a vague entry. Found edge of door to have small, negligible crack, blended crack. It ain't f'n rocket science.
 
Last edited:
GlennAB1 said:
If he signs off on it be prepared $$ and he'll probably want to do your future inspections. I would.
Click to expand...

Why would you charge more and expect a quid pro quo?

If the part is acceptable then the A&P shouldn't have a problem signing off on it, and he shouldn't charge more for it and expect future business as if he is winking and looking the other way about a dodgy part.
 
Who said anything about charging more? Shouldn't there be a fee associated with assuming the responsibility for work that someone else has performed?

What's usual and customary for bailing an owner out of this sort of situation? An hour of straight time? FT, replace the door.
 
Last edited:
GlennAB1 said:
Who said anything about charging more? Shouldn't there be a fee associated with assuming the responsibility for work that someone else has performed?

What's usual and customary for bailing an owner out of this sort of situation? An hour of straight time? FT, replace the door.
Click to expand...

:confused: If you look at it and determine it's fine and made a statement in the log attesting to it, what more have you earned?:dunno: If you glued in the new seal, you earned that time, but what else?
 
The work was done by an unlicensed mechanic, the certified A&P assumes all responsibility as if he'd done the work. Pay him as if he'd done it all.
 
GlennAB1 said:
No, it's a minor repair. Who's ever going to see the maintenance entry? Does the door seal cover the area and does the door seal come off for annuals?
Click to expand...

depth of the inspection, paper work or other wise is dependent upon the inspector, go ahead and make an entry and draw the attention to the repair. see what happens.
 
GlennAB1 said:
If you'd publicly condone undocumented maintenance, you're an idiot.
Click to expand...

Just remember the more you stomp this puddle the muddier it gets.

If you believe that stop drilling it and covering it with a seal, is good enough, go for it, but expect the IA will want a look next inspection.

Repair it, you know some one will inspect.
Replace it? not so much :)
 
GlennAB1 said:
The work was done by an unlicensed mechanic, the certified A&P assumes all responsibility as if he'd done the work. Pay him as if he'd done it all.
Click to expand...

Exactly, where does that add up to more than an hour?:dunno: "Supervised installation of new door seal per..." and done.
 
prepped and painted metal door and replaced door seal pn##### using MM ####.....signed Frederick Flyer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top