Is this considered "structural"?

stevenhmiller

stevenhmiller

Pre-takeoff checklist
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On a Piper, is the door frame considered a "structural" component of the airplane? I spoke to many pilots and they all say to weld the crack shown in the image below. A friend of mine is an A&P (to him, everything is "buy a new one") and he tells me I have to buy a new door. He says it cannot be welded as it's a structural piece and according to AC43-13, cannot be welded. He states the door is going to fly off, hit the stabilator and that will be that. To me, he's doom and gloom about everything. I expected this kind of answer from him. But is he right that it cannot be welded.

I look at this as the door is held on by the top hinge also, the latch at the top of the door, and the door locking mechanism as well. There is no weight on it when the door is closed.

I'd like to hear from A&P's and experts, please.


20151025_124014.jpg
 
stevenhmiller said:
On a Piper, is the door frame considered a "structural" component of the airplane? I spoke to many pilots and they all say to weld the crack shown in the image below. A friend of mine is an A&P (to him, everything is "buy a new one") and he tells me I have to buy a new door. He says it cannot be welded as it's a structural piece and according to AC43-13, cannot be welded. He states the door is going to fly off, hit the stabilator and that will be that. To me, he's doom and gloom about everything. I expected this kind of answer from him. But is he right that it cannot be welded.

I look at this as the door is held on by the top hinge also, the latch at the top of the door, and the door locking mechanism as well. There is no weight on it when the door is closed.

I'd like to hear from A&P's and experts, please.


20151025_124014.jpg
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I do not have a piper structural repair manual, So I'm Guessing.

The door frame as shown will be a heat treated part after stamping. you never weld a heat treated part with out a means of re-heat treatment.

IOWs if it must be welded, you remove that piece of the assembly, so it can be welded and re-heat treated.

IF -- IF the part is made from a weldable alloy, you can weld it and do the annealing, weld, and re-heat treatment process.

If -- If,, the part is available from Piper, and you are going to disassemble it, why not replace the part?
Things you must know prior to disassembling, Is it a weldable alloy? Who has a TIG welder and an A&P certificate willing to weld it?

I'd wager these doors are available from a salvage yard at 10th the cost of repairing it.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Personally I would use a very gifted AI and rebuilder I know and ask him quietly what to do.
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Were he my customer :: :)

I'd tell him to eliminate the cause of the binding that is causing this crack, and leave the crack alone.
 
Is this structural?? It is door structure, but not considered fuselage structure. It does effect the door, but not the fuselage.
 
minor repair....IMHO.

I wouldn't weld that....but I would find a piece similar to that and make a patch.
 
These aircraft are hand-made. I'd venture the odds of getting a salvage door to fit acceptably are between slim and none.
 
What crack are we talking about? The little line leading left from the rivet on the right? Am I missing seeing something big and obvious?:dunno: That's all I'm picking out that looks like a crack and I would just stop drill it.

Never mind, spotted it in the radius. Stop drill it. Although f it goes all the way to the rivet there may be further complications, I'm fuzzy exactly but there are complications on cracks from rivets. However as far as affecting the airworthiness of the plane, I don't think this classifies as an AOG structural defect component.
 
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Jeff Oslick said:
These aircraft are hand-made. I'd venture the odds of getting a salvage door to fit acceptably are between slim and none.
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They all must fit the tolerance. The salvage door may fit better than the one you see.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Yes, it's structural.
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Why would you say that when it is only held on by two hinge pins and a latch?

If it had a half a dozen locking bars I'd agree.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Could it be critical to flight if it came off or opened up in flight?
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I'm not seeing anything that s going to make the door come off, popping open is a non event as long as you don't freak out. If you have a chart on the seat or lap next to it you're probably going to lose it, but that's about it.
 
Really, then, the best advice an A&P can give (if it's not his own airplane) is for the aircraft to be operated with the door removed until fixed properly.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Really, then, the best advice an A&P can give (if it's not his own airplane) is for the aircraft to be operated with the door removed until fixed properly.
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I don't understand your conclusion. I don't see this as a safety of flight critical crack.
 
Cracks very rarely are, initially. I reinspect known cracks on airliners all the time. I don't think it's a serious crack, presently, but the difference is, they are being monitored and tracked at the airline.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Cracks very rarely are, initially. I reinspect known cracks on airliners all the time. I don't think it's a serious crack, presently, but the difference is, they are being monitored and tracked at the airline.
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The repair is simple, you get another door from the salvage yard. When the crack grows to the point it's a safety issue, there will be plenty available. What I am looking at there may never reach that point in the OP's life time. I would stop drill it though.
 
A friend of mine, an A&P is screaming in my ear that I need to replace the door. It can't be repaired. I mentioned I've seen a bunch of other doors with patches, and that's why they are for sale and not on an airplane. They can't be patched.

So, searching for another door. Will have to have it fitted when I find one.
 
#1 Buff off the primer and take good picture of the problem and another good picture showing the location of it.

#2 Send those to Piper tech support with a request for a letter of no technical objection to stop drilling the ends of the cracks and continued service.

airframe@piper.com
 
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bnt83 said:
#1 Buff off the primer and take good picture of the problem and another good picture showing the location of it.

#2 Send those to Piper tech support with a request for a letter of no technical objection to stop drilling the ends of the cracks and continued service.

airframe@piper.com
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I would, but I had it welded and then found out it's not supposed to be, due to issues with welding this kind of aluminum. The weld looks good and clean, but FAA won't like it. So, going to just get another door.
 
stevenhmiller said:
I would, but I had it welded and then found out it's not supposed to be, due to issues with welding this kind of aluminum. The weld looks good and clean, but FAA won't like it. So, going to just get another door.
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Ask for a letter of no technical objection for the welded repair then. The worst that can happen is they say no.
 
stevenhmiller said:
I would, but I had it welded and then found out it's not supposed to be, due to issues with welding this kind of aluminum. The weld looks good and clean, but FAA won't like it. So, going to just get another door.
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Then
#2 Send a pic of what you welded to Piper tech support with a request for a letter of no technical objection to stop drilling welding the ends of the cracks and continued service.

airframe@piper.com

:D:D:D
 
Tom-D said:
It says, "Negligible damage consists of visually apparent, surface damage that do not affect the structural integrity of the component involved. "

What makes you believe a crack does not effect the structural integrity?
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Last week you argued that it wasn't structural....
 
Tom-D said:
It says, "Negligible damage consists of visually apparent, surface damage that do not affect the structural integrity of the component involved. "

What makes you believe a crack does not effect the structural integrity?
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what's the load path.....?:confused:
 
GlennAB1 said:
But, you can fly without the part.
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Which then could not depart the airframe and cause in flight damage to the tail or stab. The fact that it is not "structure" in regards to the integrity of the fuselage does not mean it is not "structure" in regards to it's own integrity as an individual component.
 
Silvaire said:
Which then could not depart the airframe and cause in flight damage to the tail or stab. The fact that it is not "structure" in regards to the integrity of the fuselage does not mean it is not "structure" in regards to it's own integrity as an individual component.
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If striking the tail is the litmus test to being Critical then anything forward of the tail would be considered safety critical and we know that's not the case.
 
Seems like stop-drilling the ends of the crack, and riveting a patch over it (or maybe on the other side if getting the door to close on a patch was problematic) would be a reasonable repair. You could push some JB Weld into the crack as well for water tightness and a little extra strength.

If it can be welded, that would be better.
 
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GlennAB1 said:
Last week you argued that it wasn't structural....
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I asked for your reasoning in saying it wasn't structural. IAW the reference you gave it is.

I still don't believe it is fuselage structure, or critical to flight.

One might ask, if it isn't carrying a load, why did it crack?

You've already seen my advice as how to repair, so I'll not go there again.

OBTW, the component they speak of is the door.
 
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