Is there any profit in refurbishing aircraft?

mtuomi said:
You're not making any sense. You're saying "Bring that $30k stack in-house and do it for $10k or less.", but then talking about a junk steam panel.
You can do a steam panel "in house" for around $1k. Find a few rotten KX170's and some old ARC indicators.
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I'm talking refurbishing or updating to the most modern panel that was available to the aircraft for the year manufactured. Most crapped out aircraft I've seen, it looks like the hatchet man got ahold of the panel and cut and filed out holes and squares for whatever radio or navaid they thought was cool at the time. I'm talking a modern day updated custom steam gauge panel. That I would estimate to be in the $10k range providing a guy could source the right parts.
 
Tom-D said:
No one wants to buy that old theory radios.
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They do it everyday when they buy an older aircraft. I would think there are modern day alternatives without having to go all glass. I'm not an avionics expert, thus the reason why you would want an expert on your team who knew all that stuff, and knew how to buy it on the cheap.
 
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Why would anyone buy a refurbished aircraft at 100k when a nice 66 C172 sells for $25.5K ?

azblackbird said:
I'm talking refurbishing or updating to the most modern panel that was available to the aircraft for the year manufactured. Most crapped out aircraft I've seen, it looks like the hatchet man got ahold of the panel and cut and filed out holes and squares for whatever radio or navaid they thought was cool at the time. I'm talking a modern day updated custom steam gauge panel. That I would estimate to be in the $10k range providing a guy could source the right parts.
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To put back what was hacked is in many cases a major repair, and must gain approval on a 337 field approval. many aircraft the instrument panel is a structural part.
 
azblackbird said:
They do it everyday when they buy an older aircraft. I would think there are modern day alternatives without have to go all glass. I'm not an avionics expert, thus the reason why you would want an expert on your team who knew all that stuff, and knew how to buy it on the cheap.
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I love your dream, I wished it worked.
 
azblackbird said:
I'm talking refurbishing or updating to the most modern panel that was available to the aircraft for the year manufactured. Most crapped out aircraft I've seen, it looks like the hatchet man got ahold of the panel and cut and filed out holes and squares for whatever radio or navaid they thought was cool at the time. I'm talking a modern day updated custom steam gauge panel. That I would estimate to be in the $10k range providing a guy could source the right parts.
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You would be so wrong with your period correct panel. 1976 would be 2 KX170's and some old crap indicators and an old tube transponder. And an ADF. I've got no idea how you could sink $10k let alone $30k in that. $30k panel is G650, SL30 and a GTX330, and there's no way to do that with $10k. There is no such thing as modern day custom steam gauge panel. The closest one, if you insist on no GPS, would probably be 2xKX155's, a GTX327, some DME and a few indicators. That's a $10k panel, that adds maybe $2k value to your plane.
 
Tom-D said:
Why would anyone buy a refurbished aircraft at 100k when a nice 66 C172 sells for $25.5K ?
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Where where where? (I just put my plane for sale in the Classifieds so every 4 seater deal is interesting to me).
 
ragedracer1977 said:
Allowing owner maintenance and avionics work and non-certified parts in owned Part 91 aircraft would go a LONG way to revitalizing GA and getting those ramp derelicts up in the air again.
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I think we're on the same page here, thus the reasoning of bringing all the experts in refurbishing aircraft in-house and let them do their magic.

I think it would cool to be the Chip Foose, Boyd Coddington (RIP), or even the Gas Monkey Garage of old airplanes.
 
mtuomi said:
Where where where? (I just put my plane for sale in the Classifieds so every 4 seater deal is interesting to me).
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The Boyz I'm mentoring just bought this for 26.
 

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Tom-D said:
Pretty much,, but it will be a near new 150, what would a new 150 cost these days?
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That's not a very fair comparison, with the modern 2-seater LSA's, no-one would buy a new 150 today.
 
Tom-D said:
The Boyz I'm mentoring just bought this for 26.
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I'd love to find a decent O-300 172 after I sell my 150. Might have to go Cherokee though, since so many 172's are insanely overpriced for what they are.
 
mtuomi said:
I'd love to find a decent O-300 172 after I sell my 150. Might have to go Cherokee though, since so many 172's are insanely overpriced for what they are.
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there are two really nice looking 172 on e-bay now -motors- RVs and other stuff- aircraft.
 
mtuomi said:
You would be so wrong with your period correct panel. 1976 would be 2 KX170's and some old crap indicators and an old tube transponder. And an ADF. I've got no idea how you could sink $10k let alone $30k in that. $30k panel is G650, SL30 and a GTX330, and there's no way to do that with $10k. There is no such thing as modern day custom steam gauge panel. The closest one, if you insist on no GPS, would probably be 2xKX155's, a GTX327, some DME and a few indicators. That's a $10k panel, that adds maybe $2k value to your plane.
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I'm far from an avionics expert. I was just ball parking a rough estimate of what an updated more modernized non-Garmin panel might cost wholesale. Your little 150 panel looks pretty sweet for what it is. Not a bad little airplane. Hope it sells quick for you.

mtuomi said:
I'd love to find a decent O-300 172 after I sell my 150. Might have to go Cherokee though, since so many 172's are insanely overpriced for what they are.
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What would you pay for a mid 70's Cherokee or 172 (with a moderately updated panel) that was in factory fresh condition and looked like it just came off the showroom floor?
 
Tom-D said:
I love your dream, I wished it worked.
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Not really a dream of mine (though it easily could be). Just wondering why there are so many decent aircraft just sitting around gathering dust, and are not being snapped up by some talented enterprising individuals (who all combined) would have the wherewithal to refurbish to new conditions and make airworthy again. :dunno:

Seems everybody has their own unique individual projects (like yourself) who may be well versed in some areas, but also have to rely on 3rd parties (like your powder coating) for other areas in completing an aircraft restoration job. Wouldn't it be cool if you had all that talent and machinery in your own shop?
 
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azblackbird said:
I'm far from an avionics expert. I was just ball parking a rough estimate of what an updated more modernized non-Garmin panel might cost wholesale. Your little 150 panel looks pretty sweet for what it is. Not a bad little airplane. Hope it sells quick for you.


What would you pay for a mid 70's Cherokee or 172 (with a moderately updated panel) that was in factory fresh condition and looked like it just came off the showroom floor?
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It's actually one of the better equipped 150's I've seen. Thing is, even that is just a $2-3k added value panel even though it's full VOR/LOC/GS/GPS with two comms. There's no way a steam panel will ever be a $10k panel.

I wouldn't buy a showroom factory fresh Cherokee nor a 172. The mission they fulfill simply isn't worth that kind of money. A 172/Cherokee is a $30k plane for me. That's the value I get from them. Much more than $30k and you're in Mooney/Arrow territory, which do everything 172/Cherokees do, but better. Apart from flight training, but that's not my mission.
 
azblackbird said:
What is your mission and the specific type of aircraft you're looking for? Can you get everything you want for $100k or less?
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For now, I just need a bit more space than what I have in my 150. So - a very basic Cherokee/172 will do.
 
mtuomi said:
For now, I just need a bit more space than what I have in my 150. So - a very basic Cherokee/172 will do.
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Sorry, I deleted the post as you stated you wanted a basic Cherokee/172 but wouldn't pay the price of a factory fresh refurbished model. I understand.
 
With GA dying and refurb/ maintenance costs where they are, I think only certain specialty aircraft could be profitable. Airplane values have been on the decline for several years. Now, with many aircraft going overseas as they are, resulting in a decreased supply, if the economy were to heat up and interest in GA were to gain popularity, the landscape could change and an increase in demand could make people clamor for aircraft. IF that happens, then refurb for profit might become feasible.

My $0.02,
 
Tom-D said:
No one wants to buy that old theory radios.

Go price the new instruments to refurbish the instrument panel. see what an overhauled 208 indicator costs, how about a new gyro or a DG.
Most of the instruments in this panel were over $1K
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For the OP's purposes, there are lots of top condition used instruments in the lofts of avionics shops everywhere due to upgrades to glass. This could make panel refurb feasible for his purpose. There is still a market for nice planes with steam gauges. Your point is well made though.
 
It's one thing to hypothesize here on POA with random facts and assumptions but do a no kidding business case analysis. If you do I think you discover what we already know--it's simply not economically feasible. Overhead, labor, and material costs will drive a price point that the market will not support.
 
azblackbird said:
I'm not talking about any wrecked or damaged airframes. I'm mostly talking about faded windows/paint jobs, sun baked interiors/avionics, run-out engines, etc. etc. Seems there would be a good market for clean older airplanes that have been gone through bolt by bolt with new/overhauled engines, interiors and fresh paint jobs.
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It's certainly not their whole business, but IIRC Van Bortel does exactly this sort of thing. There are people that swear by them. But when you buy from them you know you are buying a premium airplane, and they command premium prices.

Or so I've heard; I have no experience with them, either as a buyer or a tire-kicker.
 
Tom-D said:
problem with that is no one will pay for it.
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This is the problem...there is a guy in my state that bought a neglected Piper Tri-Pacer, and totally rebuilt it: engine, fabric, paint, and panel. When I was looking for a plane his was for sale and I looked at it, and it was nice. But his price didn't compare to the market and I passed...not that his price was outrageous (he showed me what he had into it, and he was pretty much working for free)...its just hard to pay $38k for a "like 0 time" piper tri-pacer when you can buy an very nice piper tri-pacer for $18k. This plane was on the market for a long time, and I heard it sold for much much less than his asking (and so there went any "profits").
 
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If this was doable, everyone would be in the game.
They aren't - that speaks volumes.
(And people love to rebuild airplanes.)
If there really was $ in it, supply would fill that demand rapidly.

No need to dig deep on this one; the marketplace has spoken.
 
Talk to AOPA... they do it every year or two for the contest prize. Didn't they spend like $200k on that yellow C150 restoration?
 
Oh, brother. Another new guy with grand ideas. There's a well known fact in airplane purchasing. Buy the one already modified and refurbished and let the seller take the loss. That's a cheaper path that buying a project and making it into the same thing. Aircraft econ 101. How to create a $100K airplane? Buy a $50K pane and spend $100K fixing it up. How to go upside down quickly. Not a sound business plan. The total investment in an airplane refurb will almost never be recoverable when sold for market value.
 
Wasnt Aviat doing this with the 150's?
 
I've rebuilt an MGB, an FJ-40 and I'm currently driving a Willys pickup that I restored. I make allot of the parts I need and/or get them from a junk yard. New parts like tires and mufflers are mass produced and easy to find. I think the parts for planes are produced in small quantities and there is little competition. The rule still applies that when it comes off the shelf, like when a new car leaves the lot, it looses value. If you have to buy new parts (how could you sell it otherwise) you're already in the hole.
 
ragedracer1977 said:
Here's one I agree with you on AZB. It SEEMS like you could make a profit on it. But no one is doing it. I don't know enough to understand why. I know you can take a classic car that's nothing but a frame and a VIN plate and turn it into something worth high 5 figures and make a profit. I don't understand why it's not 'possible' with planes.
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Look up Pristine Airplane. This is exactly what they do.
 
The thing is, even with the GTO that sells for $100K+ on the auction block, it's not generally a run-of-the-mill vehicle. They restore specific VIN#s in order to command those prices, the ones with #'s matching and original paint colors/interior or rare options (A/C, FI, Ram-Air, etc.). You'd have to be specific about the aircraft you chose, and a run-of-the-mill 172 or M20 isn't it. You'd have to look at more specific aircraft (like Staggerwings, WACO, Beavers, etc) that could be a niche market for buyers. You might even be able to do it with certain Amphibs.
 
Stewartb said:
Oh, brother. Another new guy with grand ideas. There's a well known fact in airplane purchasing. Buy the one already modified and refurbished and let the seller take the loss. That's a cheaper path that buying a project and making it into the same thing. Aircraft econ 101. How to create a $100K airplane? Buy a $50K pane and spend $100K fixing it up. How to go upside down quickly. Not a sound business plan. The total investment in an airplane refurb will almost never be recoverable when sold for market value.
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Only because buyers will not pay. the smart buyer who wants a certain type, and thinks they will own it for a long time should buy a fully restored aircraft. Most buyers don't realize it is simply a matter of pay me now or pay me later.
 
SoonerAviator said:
The thing is, even with the GTO that sells for $100K+ on the auction block, it's not generally a run-of-the-mill vehicle. They restore specific VIN#s in order to command those prices, the ones with #'s matching and original paint colors/interior or rare options (A/C, FI, Ram-Air, etc.). You'd have to be specific about the aircraft you chose, and a run-of-the-mill 172 or M20 isn't it. You'd have to look at more specific aircraft (like Staggerwings, WACO, Beavers, etc) that could be a niche market for buyers. You might even be able to do it with certain Amphibs.
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When you look at how long the WACOs that are on e-bay, have been there you'll know they are out of price range for the common buyer.
 
Tom-D said:
When you look at how long the WACOs that are on e-bay, have been there you'll know they are out of price range for the common buyer.
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Lol, while I'm sure that's true, I don't know that I'd use eBay as an indicator of the health of a particular aircraft market. I wouldn't use it for estimating the used car market, either. I just think there's a market for certain aircraft (whether WACO falls into that niche is a different discussion). I'm sure where good examples of a certain aircraft are hard to come by, especially if there are limited number of those aircraft available for sale, someone might be able to make some money on it as long as they weren't taking in a really poor aircraft to begin with. Probably something more akin to flipping houses than doing an outright restoration.
 
Most older spam cans are worth more being parted out than trying to refurbish.
 
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