Is my instructor right for me?

[tawood]

On the other hand I would choose the second two over the first. The first will come in good time if the OP wants it. Unless someone is aiming at a career or a business use, what it the purpose for learning to fly if not to have fun?

Yeah, I know what you mean, but I was very young, on my own, when I got my license...I couldn't afford to have fun AND get my license at a leisurely pace. I had lots of fun AFTER I got my license.

 

[Everskyward]

Yeah, I know what you mean, but I was very young, on my own, when I got my license...I couldn't afford to have fun AND get my license at a leisurely pace. I had lots of fun AFTER I got my license.

I was also young, but admittedly living at home. I had fun while getting my license and probably could have done it quicker if I had been more goal-oriented. But I was not.

 

[mscard88]

it's just business, you're not going to take this person out bowling after your flight or anything.

Might be true but my experience has been just the opposite of what you stated. I've gained many friendships w/ former students from drinking a few cold ones after a lesson to hanging out with each others families. I've had students take me out to eat, and I've done the same.

If you are truly in a dangerous situation, if his instincts haven't already kicked in, command him to take the controls instead of asking.

Command him? If a CFI feels it's a dangerous deal believe me he'll take the controls.

During the debriefing, I'd sit him down and have a little chat about who's paying who and explain to him what your needs as a student are (he might just be oblivious).

This is fine but you'd lose me as a CFI if you made a statement like that more than likely. I know you're paying me but that doesn't gain you control over me. Sure a chat about your concern/complaints is fine, but don't play the "I'm paying you" card.
.

I'm sure you didn't intend to come across as you did from what you wrote. If you did, well, not a lot I can say, or would want to except for what I replied with above. A lot of students crowing on this thread. Cheers!

 

[Clip4]

Are you doing touch'n'goes?

Do a full stop, stop in the run-up area or otherwise out of the way, and discuss.

It's OK to do it on downwind or earlier, but if it's flustering you early on, it's best to do it elsewhere.

I fully agree. Taking time so the student can receive the message and process the coaching is rather important.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

I'm sure you didn't intend to come across as you did from what you wrote. If you did, well, not a lot I can say, or would want to except for what I replied with above. Cheers!

1. Sure, you can take your CFI/student out every once in a while. But in the plane, it should be all business, that's my point. I once had an instructor start crying to me in the airplane. He thought I was his friend or something so he allowed his emotions to seep through in my training. This is NOT an effective way to learn, so, I say, keep it professional.

2. Hence the "if his instincts haven't already kicked in."

3. Perhaps the "pushover" sign I have in flashing lights on my forehead has lead me to have to take certain measures to ensure my safety. But, in the end, when it is my money, my airplane, and my life on the line, I am not without reason for asserting my role and needs in the partnership.

And all of these purely opinion-based assessments you've made of me are yet another reason why I do not believe there is a perfect CFI out there for me or anyone else.

 

[FlySince9]

If communication between you and your instructor breaks down, it's the same as a total engine failure...in both cases the lesson comes to an abrupt end... At that point it is a waste of time and $$ to continue... Instructors are people... Sometimes personalities just plain CLASH... Doesn't mean either of you is right or wrong, just that your personalities aren't conducive to a good student-instructor partnership... Look for another instructor... And try not to be so mission driven. You didn't get it... maybe you needed to pause and find out why and what can be done to make your next attempt more successful...

 

[airdale]

I will only take the controls when I fee it's necessary. If I want my student to push through something, I'm not taking them. If he is having a panic attack or something dangerous is going to happen, I will take them.

If I were the OP and you refused to take the controls under the circumstances he described, you would henceforth be referred to as "the instructor I fired."

At 1000++ hours, 130+ airports, CPL and IA, I am a student pilot. We are all student pilots, including instructors. I think that it is the good instructors who understand this and who are able to adapt to the student's needs instead of thumping their chests and behaving like superior beings.

 

[OkieAviator]

During the debriefing, I'd sit him down and have a little chat about who's paying who and explain to him what your needs as a student are (he might just be oblivious).

I would strongly discourage anyone from every using this tactic in any type of negotiations. I can't think of any negotiation scenario I've been in where stating that I was the consumer and therefore paying would have any benefit. People like to use the term 'customer is always right' however it really should be 'customer is always right, until it causes me more time, money or aggravation than it's worth'.

Nothing wrong about having the conversation on training direction and expectations however leave the money component out.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

I would strongly discourage anyone from every using this tactic in any type of negotiations. I can't think of any negotiation scenario I've been in where stating that I was the consumer and therefore paying would have any benefit. People like to use the term 'customer is always right' however it really should be 'customer is always right, until it causes me more time, money or aggravation than it's worth'.

Nothing wrong about having the conversation on training direction and expectations however leave the money component out.

I don't know... I think laying out your expectations saves you time since you'll not be wasting it in the airplane. And it looks like I'm alone in this thought but instructors are EXPENSIVE! Why should one get away with a $10 attitude when you're paying them $40?

Maybe it's all the customers I saw when I worked at a BMW dealership rubbing off on me finally.

 

[bobmrg]

When I did pattern work with primary students I took the controls as soon as we turned off of the runway so that the student could concentrate on my discussion of the landing we had just completed. When we got back to the hold line the student got the controls back. During the next circuit I kept my mouth shut as much as possible, but what talking I did was about the upcoming approach, not past history.

Bob Gardner

 

[hotprops]

How was that landing ? {see first post} sounds like a very good instructor.and a 206 is a hell of a lot EASIER than a light 152/172, to fly and land. i will trade weight for a prop control any day. stop whining and go flying. I was YOU 35 years ago and wish my difficult instructor was still alive so i could get a real bfr .I EARNED many certs and ratings with him and he became one of my closest friends.

 

[OkieAviator]

I don't know... I think laying out your expectations saves you time since you'll not be wasting it in the airplane. And it looks like I'm alone in this thought but instructors are EXPENSIVE! Why should one get away with a $10 attitude when you're paying them $40?

It's not setting expectations that people would have a problem with, it's using the monetary transaction as an element to solidify your standing. The OP telling his instructor to take the controls when he says so because he's paying him is a lot different than the OP having a conversation with his instructor about taking over the controls when he gets scared, nervous, freezes up or whatever.

 

[classicrock]

I know I am not the easiest person to train. I am an executive with an A type personality who is struggling with my landings. Today on my first approach, I miss judged the wind and decided to go around. As I'm setting up for the next time my instructor kept asking me about the last pass while I was focusing on the next pass. I know he was challenging me and getting me to multi task but I tried to explain that he knows I'm struggling with landings and can we get s few of these done and build my comfort level before we start that challenging phase. He snapped back with a how do you expect me to train you if we don't review what happened. I responded with I agree but can we focus on the landing we are on and then discuss when we land. It did not go well. Here is where I got really mad. I asked my instructor to take the flight controls so that I could articulate reset my frustration level and explain to him how I best respond to instruction to help us both out. He refused to take the controls. I repeated my request two more times and both times he again refused. I dropped it and just focused on flying.

I want this to be fun but when I'm frustrated and am asking for help, I don't think in the patten with a new struggling frustrated student is the time or place to play

lots of postings in this thread, one or two from either instructors or pilots, who think "an instructor can do no wrong". bull****

I am still a PPL in process myself and I arrived at my first school knowing my learning style and and lots of experience with various learning methods and teaching styles.

I have now flown with 6 CFI's, and I can say that 3 were a######s in the cockpit. many simply do not either understand that there are different learning styles or dont care.some dont have the best coaching skills. but its the students money and the student had the right to pick who is most compatiable with him.in my case, I simply stopped scheduling with the CFI's in question.

the CFI I fly with now, I will probably fly with to my checkride

so to the OP, find another CFI to fly with, and hopefully you will have more than one choice. the first school I started at I learned later was a "pilot mill". I "had to fly" with 4 before I found one who was compatible withand then he moved on to a job as a corporate pilot.

 

[jaymark6655]

I would say that's possibly appropriate when the student is getting close to the checkride, but not so much so when someone is just learning to land.

Personally I'm not fond of CFIs who are constantly talking when I'm trying to think. But that may be only a preference because I have been criticized as a CFI for not talking enough.

He is at 20 hours, so I am assuming that he is not just learning to land. Seems like he could be at the point were instructor is asking him to critique his own flying to judge if he is aware of what went wrong and how to correct for it and is ready for solo work if he hasn't started already.

Guess I got really used to a lot of talking, my DPE gave a running commentary on at least one of my landings and I was only vaguely aware of it only because he mentioned the words fwd slip (words that always grab my attention).

Personally I wouldn't go looking for a new instructor just yet. Flying with more than one instructor is always a good thing in my mind. Gives you chance to see what different teaching styles are like.

 

[jordane93]

lots of postings in this thread, one or two from either instructors or pilots, who think "an instructor can do no wrong". bull**

I don't think anyone said that. Most people suggested the OP try another instructor

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

It's not setting expectations that people would have a problem with, it's using the monetary transaction as an element to solidify your standing. The OP telling his instructor to take the controls when he says so because he's paying him is a lot different than the OP having a conversation with his instructor about taking over the controls when he gets scared, nervous, freezes up or whatever.

I suppose. But like I was telling mscard, it is typical for me to get trampled over, so sometimes, you have to bring bigger guns to the fight. I do not want to bring up the woman card but... it is the nature of man to want to be the dominator, especially when he is in an authoritative position (such as a flight instructor). There has to be some kind of leverage on my side and my soft voice simply has not done the trick. And before you go saying it's not a fight and there is no reason for need leverage, understand that there are some serious scumbags out there.

They say your experiences shape your opinions and I don't believe there could be a more truer case than this one.

 

[tyndall]

I will only take the controls when I fee it's necessary. If I want my student to push through something, I'm not taking them. If he is having a panic attack or something dangerous is going to happen, I will take them.

If I was your student, then you better have a parachute and jump, because there is no way you could run away fast enough once we were on the ground.

A student is still a customer. If he decides that he doesn't want to fly the plane, it is your job to take the controls. Anything else is you showing absolutely zero respect for your customer. Feel free to try to convince the student to retake control later, but you have no right to deny his request.

You are teaching adults that want to learn, not children that are being forced to learn. Trying to "push" an adult can have consequences. No wonder we have a problem attracting more people. If all instructors were like you, I'd actively try to discourage people from GA.

 

[airdale]

When I did pattern work with primary students I took the controls as soon as we turned off of the runway so that the student could concentrate on my discussion of the landing we had just completed. When we got back to the hold line the student got the controls back. During the next circuit I kept my mouth shut as much as possible, but what talking I did was about the upcoming approach, not past history.

Bob Gardner

Here is wisdom.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

You are teaching adults that want to learn, not children that are being forced to learn.

Excellent way to put it.

 

[James331]

Personally I think he forced your hand to actually fly and land the plane.... I would side with the instructor on this one..

Yup.

As a CFI I'm only going to take the controls when I DEEM the situation has exceeded the students ability to salvage the maneuver.

If I was your student, then you better have a parachute and jump, because there is no way you could run away fast enough once we were on the ground.

A student is still a customer. If he decides that he doesn't want to fly the plane, it is your job to take the controls. Anything else is you showing absolutely zero respect for your customer. Feel free to try to convince the student to retake control later, but you have no right to deny his request.

You are teaching adults that want to learn, not children that are being forced to learn. Trying to "push" an adult can have consequences. No wonder we have a problem attracting more people. If all instructors were like you, I'd actively try to discourage people from GA.

Bah, this is flight training, not learning how to knit or play golf, real world you stop flying the plane you DIE, you're paying me to teach you how to be a airman and that's what I'll do.


Only issue I have is talking about the last landing vs the current one.
Typically I don't talk much, if you botch a landing I might say on your climb out, "where were you looking on the last landing" something short and to the point and that's about it till the ground debrief.

 

[hotprops]

original instructor was teaching the adult how to fly, also testing his ability to multitask and deal with stress. the instructor needs to access this before setting him free . when the student is pic and the **** hits the fan he will thank this guy. a good analogy might be USMC boot camp ,not politically correct but they turn out some very effective killers. i am sure the USAF flight program does not coddle there recruits that said every time i fly i think of Ron my long time instructor and all the ass-kicking he gave that: big time money making" a" personality machine: ME! as a side-note i became a much better business person ,and more successful than i would have been had i not had his tutelage

 

[James331]

I don't know... I think laying out your expectations saves you time since you'll not be wasting it in the airplane. And it looks like I'm alone in this thought but instructors are EXPENSIVE! Why should one get away with a $10 attitude when you're paying them $40?

Maybe it's all the customers I saw when I worked at a BMW dealership rubbing off on me finally.

Lol, you think CFIs are expensive, for what they do, for the responsibility we take, were cheap at $50hr.


By your logic you should really be able to dictate your checkride, $400 for two or so hours, just sit your DPE down, remind him who paying and let him know how you want the checkride to go

Airplanes are really expensive, when you're freaking out because your CFI let you get away with it, the plane is falling from the sky, remind the plane how much money it's costing you to fly it and demand it fly itself.

 

[Everskyward]

original instructor was teaching the adult how to fly, also testing his ability to multitask and deal with stress. the instructor needs to access this before setting him free . when the student is pic and the **** hits the fan he will thank this guy. a good analogy might be USMC boot camp ,not politically correct but they turn out some very effective killers. i am sure the USAF flight program does not coddle there recruits that said every time i fly i think of Ron my long time instructor and all the ass-kicking he gave that: big time money making" a" personality machine: ME! as a side-note i became a much better business person ,and more successful than i would have been had i not had his tutelage

The OP is just learning how to land, so perhaps multitasking can wait for later. And this is not the USMC or USAF. This is someone who is learning as a hobby, as far as I can tell, not trying to become an effective killer.

 

[Lance F]

As a new CFIA I'm loving this thread. Keep the comments coming.

 

[Jaybird180]

One thing I didn't see mentioned is:

Does the OP and the instructor have a prior relationship? If it exists, that may be an obstacle in the situation that your familiarity may be betraying both of you in this situation.

 

[James331]

The OP is just learning how to land, so perhaps multitasking can wait for later. And this is not the USMC or USAF. This is someone who is learning as a hobby, as far as I can tell, not trying to become an effective killer.

Does the aircraft, or physics, care if you're flying for a hobby or as a career?

Do your future pax care?

Does the home you crash into care?


No....it doesn't care, you train to the same degree regardless if you're career or a hobby pilot, anything other than that and you should take up another "hobby"

 

[Islandhopper]

I would suggest flying once or twice with another instructor. If you guys don't jive this early in the training, when you get to harder maneuvers or consider instrument training it will be the same arguments over and over. I've had this happen and benefit from a few different instructors for different things. By the way, don't forget your paying him with cold hard cash!

 

[MAKG1]

If I was your student, then you better have a parachute and jump, because there is no way you could run away fast enough once we were on the ground.

A student is still a customer. If he decides that he doesn't want to fly the plane, it is your job to take the controls. Anything else is you showing absolutely zero respect for your customer. Feel free to try to convince the student to retake control later, but you have no right to deny his request.

You are teaching adults that want to learn, not children that are being forced to learn. Trying to "push" an adult can have consequences. No wonder we have a problem attracting more people. If all instructors were like you, I'd actively try to discourage people from GA.

Correction: You are teaching adults that say they want to learn.

I've met quite a few in other contexts that said that, but didn't mean it or truly know what it entails.

The customer is not always right. If he were, services would be free and exhaustive. The customer's desires are one input into a decision that may have quite a few other inputs, some of them perhaps more important than the customer.

 

[Everskyward]

Does the aircraft, or physics, care if you're flying for a hobby or as a career?

Do your future pax care?

Does the home you crash into care?


No....it doesn't care, you train to the same degree regardless if you're career or a hobby pilot, anything other than that and you should take up another "hobby"

I disagree that you need to train to the same degree. You only need to be safe in what you are doing. You don't need to be some man of steel.

 

[Herve Marchadier]

If I was your student, then you better have a parachute and jump, because there is no way you could run away fast enough once we were on the ground.

Where was the comment talking about CFI's thumping their chests?

The "I'm the student. I'm paying. It's my way or no way" approach is fine. Just as a student has the right to choose the instructor they use, I, as an instructor, have the right to refuse to fly with you. And believe me, I've exercised that right in the past. Only once, but it was necessary. When I instruct, I do so because I like doing it. It isn't my career, I'm not building hours to go to the airlines. I do it because I enjoy it. And any student or client of mine who said something threatening like the above quoted post better hope they could back it up. I can promise I wouldn't run from you.

 

[yetti]

As an A type(I know that person) person it is hard to humble yourself take the back seat and learn. There is a very fine balance between being PIC (what you are training to do) and letting yourself learn. Depending on where this discussion occurred. If it was before threshold then OK. If it was after threshold tell him next time if he opens his peep "We have a sterile cockpit rule" "Be quiet now" Then own it and stick the landing. My DPE asked me the wingspan of a 172 as we were jigging around a tree to make a narrow runway on diversion. I knew what he was doing made up an answer and got back to landing the plane.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

Lol, you think CFIs are expensive, for what they do, for the responsibility we take, were cheap at $50hr.


By your logic you should really be able to dictate your checkride, $400 for two or so hours, just sit your DPE down, remind him who paying and let him know how you want the checkride to go

Airplanes are really expensive, when you're freaking out because your CFI let you get away with it, the plane is falling from the sky, remind the plane how much money it's costing you to fly it and demand it fly itself.

Oh don't be ridiculous. If I fabricated an argument like yours, I'd say, "by your logic, you should really be able to make $50 and hour and teach how you want to teach without an ounce of consideration for your student."

When I said the OP should remind his CFI who's paying who, I meant that he should talk to him about how he would like to thenceforth be taught. Not that he should put the check on the end of a fishing pole and say, "Hey, I gotcha a dollar."

Don't forget that when you are a CFI, you have a job. Since you have a job, you have an employer. So why don't you explain to the rest of us who that employer is? Hmm?

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

The customer is not always right. If he were, services would be free and exhaustive. The customer's desires are one input into a decision that may have quite a few other inputs, some of them perhaps more important than the customer.

And that's how we get things like holding on the customer service line for 45+ minutes.

 

[Tampico Trauma]

I'm reading way too much into this, but "positive exchange of controls" is probably one of the most important things in flight training, for a myriad of reasons.

And what many fail to comprehend that the exchange of controls is a two way street. As a primary student, if I hand the controls to the right seat, I expect that they are taken without questioning. Debrief later. Your controls means your controls. Period.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mscard88]

I'm reading way too much into this, but "positive exchange of controls" is probably one of the most important things in flight training, for a myriad of reasons.

And what many fail to comprehend that the exchange of controls is a two way street. As a primary student, if I hand the controls to the right seat, I expect that they are taken without questioning. Debrief later. Your controls means your controls. Period.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not necessarily. Your CFI may have a good reason for wanting you to work thru whatever it is you're doing. Look at the PTS and what's required besides just flying the plane. Things like judgement, recovering from a situation, etc. Man a lot of tough guy/gal talk directed towards CFIs on this thread.

 

[Clip4]

Oh don't be ridiculous. If I fabricated an argument like yours, I'd say, "by your logic, you should really be able to make $50 and hour and teach how you want to teach without an ounce of consideration for your student."

When I said the OP should remind his CFI who's paying who, I meant that he should talk to him about how he would like to thenceforth be taught. Not that he should put the check on the end of a fishing pole and say, "Hey, I gotcha a dollar."

Don't forget that when you are a CFI, you have a job. Since you have a job, you have an employer. So why don't you explain to the rest of us who that employer is? Hmm?

The employer is the company who employs the CFI, not the student. In some cases, the student isn't even the customer at the company where I instruct. We wash out about 10% of the the students. It is interesting to watch a student complain to their employer about a CFI. The student's employer always support the CFI.

 

[mscard88]

The employer is the company who employs the CFI, not the student.

Or the CFI may be independent, which I do in addition to instructing at a local flight school.

 

[Somedudeintn]

Does the aircraft, or physics, care if you're flying for a hobby or as a career?

Do your future pax care?

Does the home you crash into care?


No....it doesn't care, you train to the same degree regardless if you're career or a hobby pilot, anything other than that and you should take up another "hobby"

I don't feel like these questions address the real issue. You train to the same standards but use different techniques for each individual.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

The employer is the company who employs the CFI, not the student. In some cases, the student isn't even the customer at the company where I instruct.

Or the CFI may be independent, which I do in addition to instructing at a local flight school.

Exactly. I've only ever written checks made out to my instructor directly. There may be flight schools where the student pays a tuition and the school writes the payroll, but someone is depositing the cash for it. Nothing is free.

Also, to further display my argument, from Dictionary.com:

employ
/ɪmˈplɔɪ/
verb (transitive)
1. to engage or make use of the services of (a person) in return for money; hire

 

[mscard88]

Doesn't make a student my employer. I'm providing a service, and like a student, I can drop you too. Done that and refused one fella who told me I would teach him because I had to. Talking with him I saw that he would be a problem. Nope doesn't work that way.