Is my instructor right for me?

mulligan

mulligan

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Mulligan
I know I am not the easiest person to train. I am an executive with an A type personality who is struggling with my landings. Today on my first approach, I miss judged the wind and decided to go around. As I'm setting up for the next time my instructor kept asking me about the last pass while I was focusing on the next pass. I know he was challenging me and getting me to multi task but I tried to explain that he knows I'm struggling with landings and can we get s few of these done and build my comfort level before we start that challenging phase. He snapped back with a how do you expect me to train you if we don't review what happened. I responded with I agree but can we focus on the landing we are on and then discuss when we land. It did not go well. Here is where I got really mad. I asked my instructor to take the flight controls so that I could articulate reset my frustration level and explain to him how I best respond to instruction to help us both out. He refused to take the controls. I repeated my request two more times and both times he again refused. I dropped it and just focused on flying.

I want this to be fun but when I'm frustrated and am asking for help, I don't think in the patten with a new struggling frustrated student is the time or place to play
 
Time to try flying with another CFI.
 
mulligan said:
I know I am not the easiest person to train. I am an executive with an A type personality who is struggling with my landings. Today on my first approach, I miss judged the wind and decided to go around. As I'm setting up for the next time my instructor kept asking me about the last pass while I was focusing on the next pass. I know he was challenging me and getting me to multi task but I tried to explain that he knows I'm struggling with landings and can we get s few of these done and build my comfort level before we start that challenging phase. He snapped back with a how do you expect me to train you if we don't review what happened. I responded with I agree but can we focus on the landing we are on and then discuss when we land. It did not go well. Here is where I got really mad. I asked my instructor to take the flight controls so that I could articulate reset my frustration level and explain to him how I best respond to instruction to help us both out. He refused to take the controls. I repeated my request two more times and both times he again refused. I dropped it and just focused on flying.

I want this to be fun but when I'm frustrated and am asking for help, I don't think in the patten with a new struggling frustrated student is the time or place to play
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Personally I think he forced your hand to actually fly and land the plane.... I would side with the instructor on this one..:yes:
 
oh, i have too many thoughts, but i'm certain others will chime in.

1. It's your money and you have total control over how you spend it.
2. Being a Type A personality is actually a good thing because you may be more in tune with your learning style. It's your instructor's job to adjust to your style, not you to his.
3. Landings can be a *****, particularly in the beginning and more so if you're flying something fast. C152s can be soft and fun, but C172s are faster requiring you to be more attuned to keeping to a consistent pattern and proper approach speed. It takes time and practice.
4. You have every right to expect your instructor to provide limited feedback during or right after the attempted landing, but to provide full notes afterwards.
5. If you continue to feel uncomfortable after talking things out with your CFI and taking one or two more lessons, get out of dodge.
 
interesting he dint take the controls sounds dangerous. /Im not sure what kind of a pia you are but I'm sure you are on. He could be the best instructor for you, or the worst give it another try and then switch.
 
I think post flight debrief would be the appropriate place to examine the mistakes and discuss the lesson. My instructor refuses to take the controls when I get irritated, and I just except it and move on. Though when a landing goes sour he doesn't take that moment to talk about it, instead he tries a different approach for the next landing to try an yield a better result. We talk about the good, and the bad in the debrief.
 
Edit: For some reason, I took away that he was trying to review your landing while you were on final for the next one. I read it again. Not as big a deal discussing up / cross / down wind.

He should have taken the controls from you when requested.

How far along are you?
If you are really new, try not to be a Type A executive when learning to fly a plane.

Still, try flying with another CFI if you want. May be a better fit.
 
There is a point of diminishing returns with any student. When the bucket starts to overflow, it is foolish to try to get it to hold more water. It sounds like your instructor didn't realize that, or is just didn't care. Either way, he doesn't sound like someone you need to keep flying with unless you can talk through your disagreements and work out a better relationship. I would have gotten irritated too and would have just tuned him out. You are paying for the time so you get to choose what kind of instructor you want to train you.

Edit: There are a couple of options for that type situation. For one you need to speak up if he isn't picking up on the idea that your are maxed out. You may need to turn down comms and let him handle the radios while you focus on flying and his instruction. If you have your hands full just flying the plane and can't effectively debrief your landing, then extend upwind and stretch out your pattern a little (pattern traffic permitting)to give you a little more time to talk through any issues. If your brain is still maxed out, just tell him you don't know and ask what he saw wrong with the appch/ldg. Early on, you need to get the fundamentals down and build that muscle memory. Distracting questions can delay the process, and he should recognize if that is happening.
 
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Did you voice your concerns and frustration when you finished the lesson? IMO, that's the proper time...not while on final. Best to clear the air NOW and move on if you think you have too. It's your money.
 
Are you doing touch'n'goes?

Do a full stop, stop in the run-up area or otherwise out of the way, and discuss.

It's OK to do it on downwind or earlier, but if it's flustering you early on, it's best to do it elsewhere.
 
JCranford said:
How new is new?
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Just under 20 hours. I am however in an aircraft that is much harder to control then a 152 or 172. I am in a T206H. I know he is the right guy for me and he is using this as a way to keep me going. It will make me better in the end. Just really frustrating now
 
MAKG1 said:
... Do a full stop, stop in the run-up area or otherwise out of the way, and discuss. ...
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This. I always do full stops when I am working on something like heavy crosswinds, learning a new airplane, etc. Even alone. There is just too much going on in the pattern for me to also review my last landing.

That said, you also need a new instructor. To refuse to take the controls when requested multiple times is a no-brainer firing offense. You wouldn't tolerate it from another of your employees, right?

Find an experienced instructor that you get along with and one you enjoy flying with. The rest will take care of itself.
 
You're a type-a guy. Nothing wrong with that at all. If there was no unsafe situation, he was probably just proving that he too has a type-a streak. You have to break out of the comfort zone to grow. If you two just aren't compatible, that's completely different.
 
Find a new CFI that you mesh with. Recently, I had to switch my instructor half way through my instrument training because of different schedules and also he was not teaching me to fly approaches and holds in a way that I could understand. I had to finish my private with a different guy when my initial CFI had to take an early retirement for family reasons.

Scott
 
I had a huge A-hole as my instructor. Quit the week before the checkride. 70-something marine drill instructor. Lots of yelling, not a lot of teaching. Paid him in full for up to 60 hours, quit at 41.7, now he's suing me for another $1800 for breaking our contract.

Bottom line is: you are the customer. Get what you expect, or move on.

Of course him being an A-hole wasn't the ultimate reason I quit, but there was oil all over the side of the A/C and single magneto on the 172N came loose for the second time. The first time was on my fourth solo and resulted in a severe engine miss and forced landing at an abandoned airfield.

The reason I quit: he returned the aircraft to service after tightening the nuts on the mag and refused to fly it or fly with me on the next lesson.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I'm a little over 10 hrs and struggling with landings too. I am also a type A personality. I think most cfi's **** the student off sooner or later.

Lesson before last, we were doing touch and goes. I made a mediocre landing and was looking forward to the next pass (thought something clicked and I would nail the next one). Flew a perfect pattern, final was perfect, just about to roundout he yells "GO AROUND". Full throttle, level, climb, incrementally raise flaps. He said very good on the go around. I said why didn't you let me land? I was gunna nail that one. He said "maybe, but you forgot your gumps and you'll never get one by me".

I'm still ****ed about that. Let me frickin' get the most important part of flying down BEFORE you make me do everything by the book. You are here to keep me safe. If my gas is already on both, my unraiseable gear is down, mixture hasn't left full rich the whole flight, uncontrollable prop is still forward, and seatbelts haven't miraculously unbuckled themselves, then help me land this gd plane and we'll remember gumps every time somewhere between here and the check ride.

end of rant

I didn't forget a gumps the rest of the day or the next lesson.
 
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2Airtime2 said:
I'm a little over 10 hrs and struggling with landings too. I am also a type A personality. I think most cfi's **** the student off sooner or later.

Lesson before last, we were doing touch and goes. I made a mediocre landing and was looking forward to the next pass (thought something clicked and I would nail the next one). Flew a perfect pattern, final was perfect, just about to roundout he yells "GO AROUND". Full throttle, level, climb, incrementally raise flaps. He said very good on the go around. I said why didn't you let me land? I was gunna nail that one. He said "maybe, but you forgot your gumps and you'll never get one by me".

I'm still ****ed about that. Let me frickin' get the most important part of flying down BEFORE you make me do everything by the book. You are here to keep me safe. If my gas is already on both, my unraiseable gear is down, mixture hasn't left full rich the whole flight, uncontrollable prop is still forward, and seatbelts haven't miraculously unbuckled themselves, then help me land this gd plane and we'll remember gumps every time somewhere between here and the check ride.

end of rant
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Are you familiar with the principle of primacy?
 
2Airtime2 said:
I'm a little over 10 hrs and struggling with landings too. I am also a type A personality. I think most cfi's **** the student off sooner or later.

Lesson before last, we were doing touch and goes. I made a mediocre landing and was looking forward to the next pass (thought something clicked and I would nail the next one). Flew a perfect pattern, final was perfect, just about to roundout he yells "GO AROUND". Full throttle, level, climb, incrementally raise flaps. He said very good on the go around. I said why didn't you let me land? I was gunna nail that one. He said "maybe, but you forgot your gumps and you'll never get one by me".

I'm still ****ed about that. Let me frickin' get the most important part of flying down BEFORE you make me do everything by the book. You are here to keep me safe. If my gas is already on both, my unraiseable gear is down, mixture hasn't left full rich the whole flight, uncontrollable prop is still forward, and seatbelts haven't miraculously unbuckled themselves, then help me land this gd plane and we'll remember gumps every time somewhere between here and the check ride.

end of rant

I didn't forget a gumps the rest of the day or the next lesson.
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He's there to keep you safe, and that's exactly what he was doing. It only takes one screw up like forgetting gumps before the ntsb or faa is up your ass. He wants you safe and gumps is a big safety item. It's annoying but you'll appreciate it later.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
How far along are you?
If you are really new, try not to be a Type A executive when learning to fly a plane.
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Sometimes it's hard for people who have had success in their other life to be humbled when learning how to fly an airplane. In some ways it's easier when you don't have such high expectations of yourself.
 
Herve Marchadier said:
Are you familiar with the principle of primacy?
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Until he made me go around I was most familiar with the principle of doing things my way. My damn cfi is making me do things the right way 1st for some reason. :mad:


:wink2::D

I'll likely not forget a gumps check anytime soon, mission (his) accomplished.


But, but, but, I was really going to nail that landing. :yes:
 
If he thought you were dangerous he would have grabbed the controls. Quit whining and concentrate on what he is telling you. Did you land the plane?
 
2Airtime2 said:
Until he made me go around I was most familiar with the principle of doing things my way. My damn cfi is making me do things the right way 1st for some reason. :mad:


:wink2::D

I'll likely not forget a gumps check anytime soon, mission (his) accomplished.


But, but, but, I was really going to nail that landing. :yes:
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But knowing how to go around is important too. Later you will find that you are likely to be better at landing than going around, since that is how most of your approaches will end.
 
2Airtime2 said:
Until he made me go around I was most familiar with the principle of doing things my way. My damn cfi is making me do things the right way 1st for some reason. :mad:


:wink2::D

I'll likely not forget a gumps check anytime soon, mission (his) accomplished.


But, but, but, I was really going to nail that landing. :yes:
Click to expand...

Nail the next one. It's all done with love. Lol
 
If there are other instructors in your area, fire your current instructor. It sounds like he doesn't have the teaching skills or patience to deal with a frustrated student. He has to adapt to your learning style, not you to his teaching style. I'm also a student pilot and had a good former instructor. If we were still in the air--upwind, crosswind, or early downwind--this instructor would always offer to take the controls if he wanted to review the last landing. We never reviewed the last pass when we already started the descending sequence to the next landing. Too distracting otherwise. (Even this excellent instructor had a style that I didn't completely click with, so I later switched to a different CFI.)

You are paying the big bucks and should have fun while learning. There are of course the occasional and unavoidable frustrating lessons. But the really good CFIs should be able to teach us excellent fundamentals AND expand our comfort zone AND be patient AND make flying fun at the same time. If they fail any of these, find a new one, unless there is dearth of CFIs in your area. Those instructors who claim that they are being a**holes to their students so the students will learn and never forget, are just rationalizing their lack of teaching skills.
 
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I don't care what kind of personality a student has. I don't care what kind of teaching style an instructor has. When a student asks an instructor to take the controls, he better #$@&ing take the controls.
 
Instead of ditching the instructor why don't you guys just take a fun flight. A flight that doesn't involve a syllabus or any standards. Go to another airport and grab some lunch. This is what flying is really about. I always tell my students in the beginning of training that if they are feeling overwhelmed or just want to take a relaxing flight let me know we'll do it.
 
Not enough context, but try another instructor and see what you think.

I have had times where students have asked me to take the controls and I've refused to do so. But the majority of the time it's not a problem...really depends on the situation and why they're wanting me to fly suddenly.
 
tyndall said:
I don't care what kind of personality a student has. I don't care what kind of teaching style an instructor has. When a student asks an instructor to take the controls, he better #$@&ing take the controls.
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I will only take the controls when I fee it's necessary. If I want my student to push through something, I'm not taking them. If he is having a panic attack or something dangerous is going to happen, I will take them.
 
That reminds me of one of the times the 172 was down. We took the 152 out. I am 6'6" and 275ish. We were over gross.

I left my wallet in my rear pocket and we had just landed. My entire right leg fell asleep. Zero directional control.

Upon rollout, I asked the instructor to take the controls. He refused. I stopped the plane in the middle of the runway and told him I'd f--King walk back if he didn't take the controls... I couldn't even taxi.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
There sure are a lot of the usual POA "fire the instructor" responses. Refusing to take controls in a nonemergency situation is NOT AT ALL a firing offense. Presumably the point of instruction is to learn to fly, not to look at the pretty airport from above several times over.

The OP needs to lose the type A. Learning to fly is not at all like managing a company.

He might be well advised to train on a simpler airplane, especially if that T206H has a G1000.
 
The CFI is there to help you learn how to think through your issues. They won't always be there to take the controls if a little issue pops up. Work through it. Trust me, if you are going to die they will take the controls before you ask.

Just like in scuba, they are trying to prep you to think through issues you encounter, not panic and dart to the surface or hope someone else can fly you out of trouble.

As for the GUMPS go around, you were ****ed, but you admitted that you didn't forget the rest of the day. Sounds like he did his job. Practicing go-arounds is never a bad thing anyway.

During my check-ride, during the engine out portion, I had the landing nailed. Was going to be perfect right on the numbers. At the last instant he said go around. Did I wish I could have made the perfect landing on the check-ride? Hell yeah. But there are plenty of opportunities for those.

All that said, if you can't get along with or learn from your CFI, get a new one. Too expensive to waste time and money.
 
When you are flying by yourself and get frustrated with something who are you going to ask to take the controls?

I wouldn't consider myself type A but maybe A- and my approach is always to surround myself with people who are smarter than, better than and challenge me. In the end it makes me better. It can certainly be uncomfortable at times and the hardest part is not taking it too personally.

Having said that I prefer a more laid back instructor. I don't like someone who is all over the controls. My initial instructor was great unless he thought you were going to do something really dangerous he would just let you screw up and say, see why you don't want to do that.
 
Maybe he is trying to get you ready for the check ride. My instructor would always talk during critical phases of flight to distract me. One day I really screwed up and he reminded me that I was allowed to tell him or the examiner to shut up.

Instructor doesn't have to take the controls, really students should think of them as a passenger. My would fly when he needed to demonstrate something or the one time we almost had a real emergency and that was about it.
 
jaymark6655 said:
My instructor would always talk during critical phases of flight to distract me. One day I really screwed up and he reminded me that I was allowed to tell him or the examiner to shut up.
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I would say that's possibly appropriate when the student is getting close to the checkride, but not so much so when someone is just learning to land.

Personally I'm not fond of CFIs who are constantly talking when I'm trying to think. But that may be only a preference because I have been criticized as a CFI for not talking enough.
 
You don't sound like a type A personality based on what you wrote. Type A's are more comfortable with confronting the issues and accepting challenging situations than getting upset and wanting to quit and have someone else deal with it. They thrive on stress and are able to multitask well.

mulligan said:
I am however in an aircraft that is much harder to control then a 152 or 172. I am in a T206H. I know he is the right guy for me and he is using this as a way to keep me going.
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Harder to control because of the blue knob and cowl flaps? Because I actually find the 182 and 210 a lot easier to land than my STOL 172. The heavier planes can hold a glide path and have minimal flare on landing. The 172 you have to do a lot rudder, yoke, power work about 10 feet off the ground on the slightest shift in wind.

Seems like you made up your mind and you now are fine with your CFI. Maybe have the talk about expectations, such as talk about the flying when you're on the ground and have the ability to relinquish controls when you're not comfortable. I had the exact opposite discussion with my PPL CFI... told him to point out things I do wrong when I'm doing them and not to touch the controls unless we're in danger.
 
Ah, I have many views on this, with, personal experience! However, I will save my story for another time and leave you with some solid Grade A advise I got from Zoltar; the magical fortune telling gypsy machine from Coney Island



......Bear through the sh*t covered bush and trust that one day you will see green pastures on the other side.......






3647245975_8f468fc7a7.jpg
:rofl:
 
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The object is to get your pilots license, be a good pilot, or to have fun? I'd take the first two over the third all day.


This guy sounds perfect...


I remember when I started flying, and my instructor would almost NEVER take the controls when I thought it was necessary, and he would only take them when things got dangerous. Looking back, I know I'm better because of it.
 
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tawood said:
The object is to get your pilots license, be a good pilot, or to have fun? I'd take the first two over the third all day.
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On the other hand I would choose the second two over the first. The first will come in good time if the OP wants it. Unless someone is aiming at a career or a business use, what it the purpose for learning to fly if not to have fun?
 
Good advise from everyone else here but I wouldn't go looking for a different instructor just yet. I have given up on trying to find an instructor I enjoy because the fact of the matter is: it's just business, you're not going to take this person out bowling after your flight or anything. You are in a challenging aircraft and clashing a bit with the person sitting next to you, but I say try your best to follow his direction.

If you are truly in a dangerous situation, if his instincts haven't already kicked in, command him to take the controls instead of asking.

During the debriefing, I'd sit him down and have a little chat about who's paying who and explain to him what your needs as a student are (he might just be oblivious). If that doesn't work and you have a few more unsettling lessons, then you might start looking elsewhere. Just give him a shot first.
 
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