Is General Aviation Dying in the USA?

[Tom-D]

An inop instrument could be a sign of deeper trouble.

but in most cases that is as simple as it gets, it is just an instrument.

Do you really want to be in the air, when you realize there is a huge electrical problem because of some rodent that causes a fire?

If you can't handle any emergency you best get some more training.
Are you familiar with "required equipment"? There are legal and safe ways to fly with inop equipment....

If you are airborne when the discrepancy occures you act acordingly

And for the record.... if your standards for a private pilot start getting implemented, i'm never flying again because i would no longer feel safe. There are enough idiots flying. we dont need any more.

they are out there already, so hang up your keys.

 

[ajstoner21]

Sigh. We just had a 10+ page argument over inop equipment. I'm not saying anything more about it.

 

[SkyHog]

There are enough idiots flying. we dont need any more.

This here is the key issue with why the GA population is getting smaller. Elitism.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Really? You've never heard "You shouldn't fly at night unless you're instrument rated?" "Don't fly over the top if you're not instrument rated." "You're crazy to attempt a cross country trip without an IR."

That just makes a student think "Why the hell should I waste time with the PPC if I won't get any utility.

In reality, its perfectly safe, and natural as well, to fly in all of those conditions without the IR. And cutting those flights from your repertoire only limits the usefulness of GA even more.

+100!

My wife and I are VFR pilots, at first by circumstance, then by choice. Amazingly, we have traversed the continent on many long cross countries, all within reasonable time frames, all safely.

The whole "Get your instrument rating!" bandwagon has gone too far, IMHO. It makes the whole endeavor too daunting for the uninitiated, both in cost and time. If we want to grow GA, that needs to be toned down.

(Cue the peanut gallery! We shall now hear all about the "VFR into IMC" accidents that could be avoided, if only everyone had an instrument rating...)

 

[dmccormack]

This here is the key issue with why the GA population is getting smaller. Elitism.

You have to be able to read, speak, see, have reasonable hand-eye coordination and motor skills, have basic math and map skills, and display some ability to memorize and apply information, and some short term memory. There are always exceptions to any of these, but they are rare and burdensome.

These few criteria reduces the population of eligible pilots. That's not "elitism," that's "selection."

 

[dmccormack]

+100!

My wife and I are VFR pilots, at first by circumstance, then by choice. Amazingly, we have traversed the continent on many long cross countries, all within reasonable time frames, all safely.

The whole "Get your instrument rating!" bandwagon has gone too far, IMHO. It makes the whole endeavor too daunting for the uninitiated, both in cost and time. If we want to grow GA, that needs to be toned down.

(Cue the peanut gallery! We shall now hear all about the "VFR into IMC" accidents that could be avoided, if only everyone had an instrument rating...)

I don't get it -- if you're such a capable pilot, why not snap up the IR?

 

[Jay Honeck]

This here is the key issue with why the GA population is getting smaller. Elitism.

Bingo!

I have met way too many pilots who like to wallow in that "I am a Pilot!" glow. IMHO, flying a spam can is actually EASIER than driving in Chicago traffic, yet amazingly many thousands of 17 year olds seem to survive that experience with minimal training.

We absolutely need to kill this elitest attitude if GA is to survive in anything resembling its current form. Flying needs to be made welcoming and as easy as it can be made.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I don't get it -- if you're such a capable pilot, why not snap up the IR?

Initially, and now, it's a time factor. Back in '02 I made it 90% of the way through the training, and was *almost* signed off for the check ride...and then we bought our first motel.

*poof* End of discretionary time for training.

Since then, however, Mary and I did some very careful observation of weather conditions, and came to two stark realizations:

1. Weather conditions that were bad enough to make us not fly VFR were also usually bad enough to make us not fly IFR in the class of aircraft that we could afford to own.

2. Very few (like, practically none) of the instrument rated pilots we knew were able to maintain proficiency.

Bottom line: The cost/benefit ratio isn't there for us. Unless and until I can afford something like a TBM-800, and I've got WAY more time to maintain proficiency, it would be a fun exercise to obtain the rating -- and nothing more.

 

[weilke]

Unless and until I can afford something like a TBM-800, and I've got WAY more time to maintain proficiency, it would be a fun exercise to obtain the rating -- and nothing more.

You mean after you manage to franchise out your chain of aviation-themed motels

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

Bingo!

I have met way too many pilots who like to wallow in that "I am a Pilot!" glow. IMHO, flying a spam can is actually EASIER than driving in Chicago traffic, yet amazingly many thousands of 17 year olds seem to survive that experience with minimal training.

We absolutely need to kill this elitest attitude if GA is to survive in anything resembling its current form. Flying needs to be made welcoming and as easy as it can be made.

I'd have to agree with this, and I'm also a VFR pilot by choice. The reason I don't have an IR is that I'm a recreational pilot, I fly for fun, not for travel. So I don't mind if I get stuck in a place and wait for the weather to pass over. Also, I fly small two seater aircrafts, not exactly the kind you want to take into IMC anyways.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Tom,

Just because one doesn't want to have an emergency doesn't mean they can't handle it. Can I handle an in-flight fire (which is the specific emergency you replied to)? Well, I sure hope so - It means an emergency descent and getting that plane on the ground NOW, wherever I happen to be.

But, I still really really don't want it to happen!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

(Cue the peanut gallery! We shall now hear all about the "VFR into IMC" accidents that could be avoided, if only everyone had an instrument rating...)

Which, of course, is also a load of crap - IIRC, half or slightly more of the VFR-into-IMC accidents involve instrument-rated pilots.

I love my instrument rating, but regular, hard-core travel is about the only kind of flying it's really good for. I recognize that MANY people don't want to go through the effort of getting the rating or staying proficient, and there are many types of flying where it's worthless. For example, Diana's brand of flying - A Citabria, aerobatics, lots of grass strips, and done purely for fun - The IR is worthless for that. Some people fly only for the pure pleasure of getting up in the sky, and that's not what instrument flying is about.

Instrument flying is "utility" flying. I do get a lot of pleasure out of it too - Both the sights (full moon low in the sky on top of an undercast, for example, is a spectacular sight) and the pure "neato" geek factor when you've been unable to see beyond your wingtips for an hour or more and you get to see the runway slowly materialize right in front of you - But it's a different animal and it's really not for everybody.

That said, I think it also helped improve my flying more than anything else I've ever done, so it's certainly a worthwhile endeavor even for those who aren't going to use it enough to keep current. But, I don't think less of anyone for not having it.

 

[azure]

We absolutely need to kill this elitest attitude if GA is to survive in anything resembling its current form. Flying needs to be made welcoming and as easy as it can be made.

And then you'll have to deal with the EXPENSE of flying which is IMO far and above the main reason why there aren't more pilots. I would rank the kind of elitism of which you speak so far down the list it's almost in the noise.

If current trends continue, sometime within the next few years I won't have any discretionary income left to spend on flying -- long before things reach the point where it costs $150 to fill up my 2001 Saturn's gas tank, and my food costs are on the order of $200/day, it will be time to turn the keys over to some multimillionaire who can still afford to do it.

 

[ajstoner21]

This here is the key issue with why the GA population is getting smaller. Elitism.

I do not feel "elite" in any way whatsoever. I think Dan nailed. it. I do my best to encourage everyone i meet to take up Aviation as a hobby, but if you arent competent enough to meet PTS standards, stay out of an airplane or keep training.

You have to be able to read, speak, see, have reasonable hand-eye coordination and motor skills, have basic math and map skills, and display some ability to memorize and apply information, and some short term memory. There are always exceptions to any of these, but they are rare and burdensome.

These few criteria reduces the population of eligible pilots. That's not "elitism," that's "selection."

I will say that, I think its mostly financial reasons are what keeps people from becoming pilots and grounds pilots. I do not think the private pilot test standards are too hard as you say. If you can't meet the current PTS standards of +/- 100 feet for altitude, YOU need more training.


And Tom, I agree with what Kent said.

Tom,

Just because one doesn't want to have an emergency doesn't mean they can't handle it. Can I handle an in-flight fire (which is the specific emergency you replied to)? Well, I sure hope so - It means an emergency descent and getting that plane on the ground NOW, wherever I happen to be.

But, I still really really don't want it to happen!

 

[airbornejohnny]

This here is the key issue with why the GA population is getting smaller. Elitism.

Perhaps, but why would you consider lowering standards? "Elitism" exists in the individual, not nefesarily the whole group. Gaining proficiency to a standard is symantical to learning and performing. If standards were lowered, perhaps more people could be interested, but fewer moms and dads would support their children wanting a "less safe" hobby. The general public is already pretty clueless about aviation, and compromising potential safety by lowering standards would surely do in GA.
I say as far as getting people interested and hooked enough to damn the financials it comes down to the individual pilot THINKING a little bit about what he/she is going to say/do with the prospective future pilot. Anyone seeking the training can learn it, but once in a while they may need extra encouragement...again, this falls on the individual.

 

[SkyHog]

Perhaps, but why would you consider lowering standards? "Elitism" exists in the individual, not nefesarily the whole group. Gaining proficiency to a standard is symantical to learning and performing. If standards were lowered, perhaps more people could be interested, but fewer moms and dads would support their children wanting a "less safe" hobby. The general public is already pretty clueless about aviation, and compromising potential safety by lowering standards would surely do in GA.
I say as far as getting people interested and hooked enough to damn the financials it comes down to the individual pilot THINKING a little bit about what he/she is going to say/do with the prospective future pilot. Anyone seeking the training can learn it, but once in a while they may need extra encouragement...again, this falls on the individual.

Because the standards are unnecessarily high. Look, flying is easier than driving, by a large amount. At the very minimum, there's no curbs to hit if you deviate a few feet left or right. There's no roads you need to follow, and there's usually not even any other planes between you and your destination.

Its much easier.

Yet, we make it so hard to get compared to a driver's license, and why? Because to do otherwise would be "lowering our standards." That is the core of elitism, and why our numbers are dwindling.

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

Because the standards are unnecessarily high. Look, flying is easier than driving, by a large amount. At the very minimum, there's no curbs to hit if you deviate a few feet left or right. There's no roads you need to follow, and there's usually not even any other planes between you and your destination.

Its much easier.

Yet, we make it so hard to get compared to a driver's license, and why? Because to do otherwise would be "lowering our standards." That is the core of elitism, and why our numbers are dwindling.

Sport Aviation has made it somewhat easier and cheaper to get into the skies, but with restriction to the pilots and aircraft.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Perhaps, but why would you consider lowering standards? "Elitism" exists in the individual, not nefesarily the whole group. Gaining proficiency to a standard is symantical to learning and performing. If standards were lowered, perhaps more people could be interested, but fewer moms and dads would support their children wanting a "less safe" hobby. The general public is already pretty clueless about aviation, and compromising potential safety by lowering standards would surely do in GA.

That sounds EXACTLY like the recent "Well, we can't fail little Johnny in school, because it might make him FEEL bad!" I sure hope we never do that in aviation. "Failure" here = death.

 

[gcd89]

I heard a guy talking about this recently and his idea was to revamp PPL training, because the training we go through today has been the same training regimen we've had since the onset of WW2, which is designed to teach, and GTF out there.

I'm not sure if I agree or not, but it's an interesting point.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Because the standards are unnecessarily high. Look, flying is easier than driving, by a large amount. At the very minimum, there's no curbs to hit if you deviate a few feet left or right. There's no roads you need to follow, and there's usually not even any other planes between you and your destination.

Its much easier.

BS. There's a lot more forethought involved (most problems you ignore in a car can be solved by pulling over). There's a third dimension to consider, and as we spend our lives outside of flying bound to the ground, most people don't really think in three dimensions.

Let's find an average group of 10 people off the street. How many do you think will be able to parallel park a car? How many do you think will be able to land an airplane?

It's not as hard as some people want to make it sound, but it is NOT as easy as driving a car.

Yet, we make it so hard to get compared to a driver's license, and why? Because to do otherwise would be "lowering our standards." That is the core of elitism, and why our numbers are dwindling.

Frankly, it needs to be harder to get a driver's license, not easier to get a pilot certificate.

And even if you removed ALL of the FAR's, I still think that the PTS would be a good metric for licensing new pilots.

 

[dmccormack]

Because the standards are unnecessarily high. Look, flying is easier than driving, by a large amount. At the very minimum, there's no curbs to hit if you deviate a few feet left or right. There's no roads you need to follow, and there's usually not even any other planes between you and your destination.

Its much easier.

No, it's not.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Because the standards are unnecessarily high. Look, flying is easier than driving, by a large amount. At the very minimum, there's no curbs to hit if you deviate a few feet left or right. There's no roads you need to follow, and there's usually not even any other planes between you and your destination.

Its much easier.

Yet, we make it so hard to get compared to a driver's license, and why? Because to do otherwise would be "lowering our standards." That is the core of elitism, and why our numbers are dwindling.

I wish you told me that a couple of hours ago. Gusting variable crosswind, turbulance aloft. Good practice though. I just stayed in the pattern, the equivelent of driving around the block.

 

[Gary F]

This here is the key issue with why the GA population is getting smaller. Elitism.

It was not always this way. Here is an episode of the Andy Griffith show from 1968 where Aunt Bea solos a 172.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX7PcbKn6Tk&playnext=1&list=PL5827FFB67ACD57A4

 

[wabower]

You obviously don't know the extent of Nick's difficulties with driver's ed.

No, it's not.

 

[Bob Noel]

Let's find an average group of 10 people off the street. How many do you think will be able to parallel park a car? How many do you think will be able to land an airplane?

Apparently parallel parking is too hard. Look at the parallel parking assist available now.

How many of those 10 people off the street have the judgement to fly safely?

 

[dmccormack]

You obviously don't know the extent of Nick's difficulties with driver's ed.

That would explain plenty...

 

[airbornejohnny]

Because the standards are unnecessarily high. Look, flying is easier than driving, by a large amount. At the very minimum, there's no curbs to hit if you deviate a few feet left or right. There's no roads you need to follow, and there's usually not even any other planes between you and your destination.

Its much easier.

Yet, we make it so hard to get compared to a driver's license, and why? Because to do otherwise would be "lowering our standards." That is the core of elitism, and why our numbers are dwindling.

Curbs? No, but if you can't maintain altitude +/- 100 feet and you're in an emergency situation, say engine quit at 200' agl....well, the ground could represent a brick wall, and burning-in an aircraft with little or no control, and not being able to grasp a fundamental skill even with a properly operating a/c, such an emergency WILL kill, and CAN be avoided. With the kinds of morons on the roads who NEED parallel-parking asisstance causing all kinds of idiocies in the rules of the road, I'd rather not see them in the air. What other ideas does this thinking spawn? Not requiring reading/speaking/understanding (INCLUSIVE) the English language. No big deal driving in some opinions, but you really want language barriers in the air?
Don't get me wrong, I wish there existed a way for aviation to be more approachable to people, but lowering standards will hurt it, not help it IMO. And I'm not even officially a student yet. Grew up on EWR and got to fly with a few people and CAP when I was younger; flying has always been a pursuit for me, and I welcome the challenges ahead of me, and expect to be held to a high standard.
Just another way to look at it...What if parachute training did not require upper body strength standards because we want more fat people to fall out of the sky? There would be a lot more broken legs and backs due to them not being able to slip properly before landing. More collisions during descent as well could occur. Heck if it wasn't for high standards at Army Airborne school, I may have landed like a sack of spuds when my reserve deployed upon exiting the a/c, but the other paratrooper who's main lift web contained my reserve and I handled it based on our training and suffered no injury...just a hard landing.
Granted, thats military chutes, not civilian sport rigs, but the line in the sand is there, and should not be moved backward. This isn't an elitism thing, it's a SAFETY issue.

 

[Everskyward]

There's no roads you need to follow

That's one of the things that makes driving easier. There are signs to follow too.

It's a different experience for people to orient themselves in three dimensions when there are no clear guidelines how to get from here to there. Sure, anyone can steer an airplane around the sky as long as they don't get too fast or too slow. Children do it with no problem. However, give someone a task to takeoff, fly somewhere and land without training and it's a different situation.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Decisions per second for an airline pilot over an 8 hour shift flying vs. decisions per second for a city bus driver over an 8 hour shift driving. Hmmm.
Actually the snobism, elitism stuff doesn't matter, at the end of the day us pilots are jerks to non(or not)-yet-pilots.

 

[hindsight2020]

Decisions per second for an airline pilot over an 8 hour shift flying vs. decisions per second for a city bus driver over an 8 hour shift driving. Hmmm.
Actually the snobism, elitism stuff doesn't matter, at the end of the day us pilots are jerks to non(or not)-yet-pilots.

In my experience that is a function of the increasing median age of the GA pilot pool rather than endemic of somebody having a license. That is of course in turn a direct result of the older crowd being the demographic that can still afford the outrageous cost of private recreational flying and therefore dominating and establishing the face of this "picture".

Older crowds in every recreational activity tend to be snobby, insular and a general killjoy. I don't think it is exclusive to flying. But the point is noted. I also don't think they mean it. I think they have lost perspective to what it's like to be younger and with less resources. Pilots in general are not the friendliest bunch by that virtue.

Reminds me of this old CFI squadronmate of mine. Ok pilot, enthusiastic about flying, but boy what a killjoy. 35 minute walkaround and 20 minute brief on checklist usage and "don't touch anything without proper transfer of aircraft control". I could have the kid spinning and pointing at the local landmarks, followed by touch n goes to a fair level in that amount of time. Jesus, it's just a SR-20. No need for the airline Takeoff brief. I take that back. the airlines are quicker running through a -75 checklist LOL.

On a different topic, I agree with Jay. I don't remember the last time I took off into IMC in a light piston single where the go/no-go criteria was ability to fly in-cloud. Which is to say, virtually every weather condition where I would be dissuaded from taking off in a low performance piston aircraft VFR, would also be a weather condition in which I would not take off IFR either. IMC flying single-pilot is laborious and work-laden, not fun when you're trying to enjoy recreational flying. If the wx is good enough for you to enjoy whatever it is you're gonna do with friends at your destination, you probably can wait half a day for the marginal weather to clear so you can get there VFR. Otherwise it's probably weather I wouldn't want to fly around in below 10K in a piston with low-end vacuum system (the only kind we can afford; see, this GA thing is a death spiral, put a nail in it might as well). That's why an IR at this level of the game doesn't add much marginal utility. Does it improve your cross check and therefore your flying ability and SA? Absolutely. Is it a positive ROI for every pilot who will never upgrade out of the piston class aircraft? No, not at all for the majority. A good robust refresher training on under the hood procedures would be a much more cost effective and 80% solution to improving your flying skills in inadvertent IMC and "not losing your cool just because you lost your horizon", than incurring the cost of the ticket just so you can legally file.

IMC flying is for people with business in mind and with the equipment to put up with the nasty stuff. IMC single pilot in a spam can is a drag, particularly when you're trying to have a blast with the fam. Like a hole-in-one with no witness. Awesome, but nobody cares.

 

[Everskyward]

I'm not sure that there is less interest in flying today than there was in the past. I learned to fly in the late 1970s at a large university flying club, meaning the university was large, not the club. It was the University of California. The club was open to students, staff, faculty and alumni. I'll bet there weren't more than 200 members of which only about 50 were active and maybe 20 showed up at meetings. This is a place which I think had around 20,000 students at the time. If you add in the staff, faculty and alumni that is a lot of people.

 

[wabower]

In my experience that is a function of the increasing median age of the GA pilot pool rather than endemic of somebody having a license. That is of course in turn a direct result of the older crowd being the demographic that can still afford the outrageous cost of private recreational flying and therefore dominating and establishing the face of this "picture".

Really? How many of the "older crowd" do you see flying around in the most expensive (plastic) singles currently manufactured?

Older crowds in every recreational activity tend to be snobby, insular and a general killjoy.

Got any proof of that?

I don't think it is exclusive to flying. But the point is noted. I also don't think they mean it. I think they have lost perspective to what it's like to be younger and with less resources.

Exactly what perspective should they have in your learned view? The young hot-shots show up at the airport, yank their planes out of the hangar and are gone within 10 minutes. Same goes for the return, and they raise hell if the gas truck doesn't show up immediately so they can be on their way to their next BBD. Where's the milk of human kindness and hail-fellow-well-met that you're so sure is attributable to the young folks?

Pilots in general are not the friendliest bunch by that virtue.

Speculation.

Reminds me of this old CFI squadronmate of mine. Ok pilot, enthusiastic about flying, but boy what a killjoy. 35 minute walkaround and 20 minute brief on checklist usage and "don't touch anything without proper transfer of aircraft control". I could have the kid spinning and pointing at the local landmarks, followed by touch n goes to a fair level in that amount of time. Jesus, it's just a SR-20. No need for the airline Takeoff brief. I take that back. the airlines are quicker running through a -75 checklist LOL.

And for a student with your "kick the tires, yank and bank" mentality, that might be exactly what they want. Another student with a more careful and methodical approach might prefer a good orientation. You're trying to paint with much to broad a brush.

On a different topic, I agree with Jay. I don't remember the last time I took off into IMC in a light piston single where the go/no-go criteria was ability to fly in-cloud. Which is to say, virtually every weather condition where I would be dissuaded from taking off in a low performance piston aircraft VFR, would also be a weather condition in which I would not take off IFR either. IMC flying single-pilot is laborious and work-laden, not fun when you're trying to enjoy recreational flying. If the wx is good enough for you to enjoy whatever it is you're gonna do with friends at your destination, you probably can wait half a day for the marginal weather to clear so you can get there VFR. Otherwise it's probably weather I wouldn't want to fly around in below 10K in a piston with low-end vacuum system (the only kind we can afford; see, this GA thing is a death spiral, put a nail in it might as well). That's why an IR at this level of the game doesn't add much marginal utility. Does it improve your cross check and therefore your flying ability and SA? Absolutely. Is it a positive ROI for every pilot who will never upgrade out of the piston class aircraft? No, not at all for the majority. A good robust refresher training on under the hood procedures would be a much more cost effective and 80% solution to improving your flying skills in inadvertent IMC and "not losing your cool just because you lost your horizon", than incurring the cost of the ticket just so you can legally file.

IMC flying is for people with business in mind and with the equipment to put up with the nasty stuff. IMC single pilot in a spam can is a drag, particularly when you're trying to have a blast with the fam. Like a hole-in-one with no witness. Awesome, but nobody cares.

IMC flying is for people who want to use the airplanes when the weather is less than perfect for the takeoff, enroute and approach/landing phases of their flights. No amount of VFR-rated refresher courses will provide that capability. The reason many people buy airplanes is so they can travel on their own schedule. Suggesting that somebody "can wait a half-day for VFR" misses the point entirely. If they hadn't wanted to fly, they could have driven the trip an another half day.

 

[JesseD]

IMC flying is for people who want to use the airplanes when the weather is less than perfect for the takeoff, enroute and approach/landing phases of their flights. No amount of VFR-rated refresher courses will provide that capability. The reason many people buy airplanes is so they can travel on their own schedule. Suggesting that somebody "can wait a half-day for VFR" misses the point entirely. If they hadn't wanted to fly, they could have driven the trip an another half day.

I'll add that a family friend, a retired Navy rotor, and my CFI agree: earning your instrument rating helps make you safer and more precise. As someone who plans on flying his family, I want to be as safe a pilot as possible. I might even aim for a commercial, just for that extra bit of precision.

Still, the possibility of inadvertent IMC despite forecasts, dictates that I would wiser to learn instrument flying for safety's sake.

 

[hindsight2020]

IMC flying is for people who want to use the airplanes when the weather is less than perfect for the takeoff, enroute and approach/landing phases of their flights. No amount of VFR-rated refresher courses will provide that capability. The reason many people buy airplanes is so they can travel on their own schedule. Suggesting that somebody "can wait a half-day for VFR" misses the point entirely. If they hadn't wanted to fly, they could have driven the trip an another half day.

My only point was to agree with Jay that the specific set of conditions in which one could actually make the case that the only discriminator in order to launch or not launch is the ability to fly in-clouds, is very very limited. More often than not, these WX particulars simply make single engine piston flight cumbersome if not unsafe for what is being attempted at accomplishing (recreational flight). Which puts the VFR-only pilots not far behind the IR folks when the day is done. Put simply, you ain't flying thru that squall line, overflying it or outrunning it...and that windshear ahead and behind it? Your wife is gonna nag u all the way to the destination for not waiting the extra 4 hours. And that's the south. New England or perma overcast Midwest with that nice little sprinkling of embedded rime ice in-cloud? Yeah, makes me all giddy just thinking about leaving those VFR fools in the dust as I file away in my 800 fpm climb contraption.

In short, IR ticket doesn't by you much time in the single engine piston class. I even go back to my days as an IR student. Frankly, the only time instrument actual was accomplished was in the most benign IMC you could encounter. Morning low cloud overcast in the summer, where no icing or convective was associated with said low cielings. By mid morning the crap was broken up enough to make the VFR yahoos rocket away through the holes, and by mid afternoon ALL the bugsmashers regardless of flight plan are racing home to avoid the convective stuff that will flip that smile upside down until all your CFI-ATP-MEL tickets fall out of your pocket by attempting to airline your way around in a single piston of any size. So yeah, I stand by my assertion that in aggregate, we're talking a couple hours tops, for what a single engine piston can accomplish blasting VFR vs blasting IFR in same aircraft. The sheer thought of accomplishing a STAR on a CAT A aircraft just makes me wanna drive. LOL

Most aircraft owners I know are not instrument rated. go figure. They sure got the money for that Sr-20 though, and yes they're almost exlusively over 45 years of age. And yes it is the internet, of course I'm generalizing...

Look, if the training was free, a la GI Bill, then yeah everybody go for that ATP. Alas my generation wasn't that lucky, we're late to the party, so cost matters. I still think a guy who is never going to upgrade to turbine equipment and who merely wants to share recreational flying with his family and friends, could stretch his buck much much better by having recurrent under the hood training and still gain the same level of instrument cross-check (safety) an instrument rated pilot does, sans the added cost for demonstrating proficiency in approach and NAS navigation procedures. That was all.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Exactly what perspective should they have in your learned view? The young hot-shots show up at the airport, yank their planes out of the hangar and are gone within 10 minutes. Same goes for the return, and they raise hell if the gas truck doesn't show up immediately so they can be on their way to their next BBD. Where's the milk of human kindness and hail-fellow-well-met that you're so sure is attributable to the young folks?

Hindsight,

Wayne's got you there. I think I see a lot more of the elitism coming from younger folks.

In fact, the least elitist, most down-to-earth pilot I know is also, I think, the oldest active pilot I know. I watched as he gave rides to many people at a fly-in, pretty sure it was more rides than any other single person gave. I've watched videos of him taking a dying man for his last airplane ride because nobody else within 200 miles would do it. I've had the honor of flying with him, and he's a hell of a pilot - He's also one of the most genuinely nice, inclusive people I've ever met. (Those who have been around here know I'm talking about Bob Bement.)

Of course, generalizations generally fail. (How's that for some irony.) One of the youngest pilots on the board was also one of the most generous in terms of giving rides to non-pilots last year at Gaston's - Jesse Angell.

Elitism is something that happens on a case-by-case basis.

 

[dmccormack]

Older crowds in every recreational activity tend to be snobby, insular and a general killjoy. I don't think it is exclusive to flying. But the point is noted. I also don't think they mean it. I think they have lost perspective to what it's like to be younger and with less resources. Pilots in general are not the friendliest bunch by that virtue.

Hang on -- I spent most of the 90s in the Bicycle Road Racing crowd, dominated by 20-somethings, and if you want "unfriendly," there's no better (I was in my thirties at the time).

BUT -- there's a reasons for that standoff view -- this newbie might take me down hard in a turn, might be here for one race and then gone, or might blow my doors off and make me look bad.

What does this have to do with flying?

Spend some time at a GA airport near the fence or parking lot (I have) and interact with the folks that stop by on a nice evening. Here's the typical sequence:

PILOT: Hi!
GUY BEHIND FENCE: Hi... you fly these..?
P: Yep!
GBF: How much does it cost?
P: Well, that all depends...
GBF: My buddy took me up once -- I puked my guts out...
P: Yeah, that can happen...
GBF: Are they safe?
P: As what?
[and so on]...........................


This exchange goes on for 30 minutes. Now, I got to the airport at 5:30, pulled the airplane out, preflighted, fueled up with $5/gal 100 LL, winds are calm, the sky clear, and the sun is rapidly dropping towards the horizon. A low is sweeping in overnight and the next 5 days promise winds, low ceilings, rain, and general yuckiness. The FBO guy is fueling the next airplane so I'm solo for this restart.

So, I gracefully excuse myself and go through the tie down, start up, untie, and taxi out ritual.

So I've done this a few dozen times in the last five years, have taken various children up to the airplane, let them sit in the cockpit, etc. I usually have business cards and provide them after hearing the third time, "I'd really like to learn to fly someday..."

Do you know how many have called me?










Yeah: 0

So, I'm not a bit surprised that a few folks with a few more years in the game are a bit jaded when new folks are found wandering around the airport. They've had their fill of FAA "Inspectors," local government gold miners (you know -- the airport is a huge source of revenue!), and well-intentioned but unserious types. There's only so many hours free in a week and when we finally get to the airport we want to wring out as much aviation as possible. For some that includes hangar flying.

 

[Jim_R]

On a different topic, I agree with Jay. I don't remember the last time I took off into IMC in a light piston single where the go/no-go criteria was ability to fly in-cloud. Which is to say, virtually every weather condition where I would be dissuaded from taking off in a low performance piston aircraft VFR, would also be a weather condition in which I would not take off IFR either. IMC flying single-pilot is laborious and work-laden, not fun when you're trying to enjoy recreational flying. If the wx is good enough for you to enjoy whatever it is you're gonna do with friends at your destination, you probably can wait half a day for the marginal weather to clear so you can get there VFR. Otherwise it's probably weather I wouldn't want to fly around in below 10K in a piston with low-end vacuum system (the only kind we can afford; see, this GA thing is a death spiral, put a nail in it might as well). That's why an IR at this level of the game doesn't add much marginal utility. Does it improve your cross check and therefore your flying ability and SA? Absolutely. Is it a positive ROI for every pilot who will never upgrade out of the piston class aircraft? No, not at all for the majority. A good robust refresher training on under the hood procedures would be a much more cost effective and 80% solution to improving your flying skills in inadvertent IMC and "not losing your cool just because you lost your horizon", than incurring the cost of the ticket just so you can legally file.

IMC flying is for people with business in mind and with the equipment to put up with the nasty stuff. IMC single pilot in a spam can is a drag, particularly when you're trying to have a blast with the fam. Like a hole-in-one with no witness. Awesome, but nobody cares.

I'm planning to get my IR via PIC in a couple of months. Part of the reason is because I'm tired of seeing days with low overcast but no convection keeping me down. I'm afraid to take weekend trips unless the forecast is for "severe clear" because it's too easy for that 45% cloud cover to turn into 75%, or because I don't want to fly 2-3 hrs trapped between 1000 and 2500 AGL in hot, bumpy air when I know it'd be smooth and cool at 7500 or 8500 AGL.

I live within weekend jaunt distance of Jay's hotel in Port-A, and twice have thought on Weds that I might fly down to check it out, then decided on Thursday that I didn't feel confident enough about the clouds. Both of those times, if I had an IR to fall back on, I'd have launched.

Maybe once I get my IR and feel more confident about launching, I'll realize that I could have "pushed my VFR envelope" a little more. Still, it's one thing to "push the VFR envelope" when you've got the IR trump card in your pocket. Without it, I'm gonna continue to sit on the ground a lot more than I want to.

I do worry that it will be difficult to maintain IFR proficiency. I'll just have to figure out how to deal with that.

 

[Bob Noel]

I do worry that it will be difficult to maintain IFR proficiency. I'll just have to figure out how to deal with that.

In one sense, it's not much different than maintaining VFR proficiency. If you let it lapse, you go up with an instructor and get proficient again.

Because of family medical issues, I haven't flown at all since March 2010. This month I'll get my BFR (it expired 8/2010). It'll take whatever number of flights is takes.

 

[Dr. O]

GA is NOT dieing... It is flat out dead - just doesn't have the decency to go bury itself...

It is multifactorial... Everyone jumps on gas prices, and that is an important issue, but it could be overcome if not for other factors; major of which is the labyrinthine FAA regulations that not even a Philadelphia lawyer can understand - which contain the spoken threat (not unspoken) that if you make even a small mistake we are gonna crucify you to further our own careers, and if you happen to cross an invisible line in the sky we are gonna put you face down on the tarmac in front of your significant other with an M16 against your head and a boot on your neck - and that is the real GA killer...

20 years from now there will be LSA, who will be limited to 3000 AGL and daytime flight in 'specified' flying areas (LOA's like MOA's), and Pro Aviation, and that will be it... Thankfully, it is unlikely I will be here to see it...

denny-o

 

[Everskyward]

GA is NOT dieing... It is flat out dead - just doesn't have the decency to go bury itself...

At my home airport and one that I have been to frequently in the past few weeks it seems that there are always small airplanes out and about if the weather is good. There were 4 small airplanes in the runup area yesterday...