Is General Aviation Dying in the USA?

Yeah, but it ties into flight training. People learn on 152/72's and small stuff. Here gas is $8 which is driving prices of training up, especially on smaller schools.

172 small?

Not at 8gal/hr avgas!

Flight schools (especially smaller ones) should have switched to LSAs by now or at least have 162's on order.

Example:

Flight School, Waynesville Ohio.

Cost is per hour and includes fuel and oil.

Airplanes
J3 Cub: $58.00 and $63.00
Champ: $58.00

C150: $67.00
C172: $88.00
Citabria: $103.00
Piper Arrow: $132.00
Decathlon: $150.00
Stearman PT-17: $173.00

Add instruction in any of the above for $35/hr.

Instruction is done by NON-ATP candidates! So you actually get trained by someone who wants to train and cares about the student.

How many successful driving schools are teaching in 1973 V8's ?

Attitude and culture change!!
 
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172 small?

Not at 8gal/hr avgas!

Flight schools (especially smaller ones) should have switched to LSAs by now or at least have 162's on order.

Example:

Flight School, Waynesville Ohio.

Cost is per hour and includes fuel and oil.

Airplanes
J3 Cub: $58.00 and $63.00
Champ: $58.00

C150: $67.00
C172: $88.00
Citabria: $103.00
Piper Arrow: $132.00
Decathlon: $150.00
Stearman PT-17: $173.00

Add instruction in any of the above for $35/hr.

Instruction is done by NON-ATP candidates! So you actually get trained by someone who wants to train and cares about the student.

How many successful driving schools are teaching in 1973 V8's ?

Attitude and culture change!!

Can you get PPL, CFI or CPL while training in an LSA??
 
Can you get PPL, CFI or CPL while training in an LSA??

I believe so, as long as you receive the necessary instruction (and the SP is equipped for radio navigation and night flight). An added benefit of using such aircraft is a two-stage training process, such that the student gets the SP and then goes on to the PP. In that way students will experience pilot-in-command responsibilities and freedoms earlier in the training process.
 
Doing just about anything as a job is a great way to ruin it as your hobby. :idea:

Yeahbut I'm glad I did it that way. I don't know if I could have justified such an expensive hobby, especially when I was younger. I have a bad track record with hobbies.
 
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Can you get PPL, CFI or CPL while training in an LSA??

PP: Sure, why not?
IR: Sure, if it's properly equipped.
CP: Mostly, but as of right now you'll still need to get some complex time in and do the takeoff/landing tasks on the checkride in a complex airplane.
CFI: Same as CP.

Once the complex requirement is removed and replaced with an advanced instrument training requirement instead (if that ever ends up going through), the LSA will be good for all of the above.
 
I believe so, as long as you receive the necessary instruction (and the SP is equipped for radio navigation and night flight). An added benefit of using such aircraft is a two-stage training process, such that the student gets the SP and then goes on to the PP. In that way students will experience pilot-in-command responsibilities and freedoms earlier in the training process.

I don't know of any complex LSA aircraft. Commercial requires complex time.
 
I don't know of any complex LSA aircraft. Commercial requires complex time.

True, I was thinking only of the PP. You could train for the commercial in an LSA, you would just have to include some maneuvers in a complex aircraft.
 
I don't know of any complex LSA aircraft. Commercial requires complex time.

Definition of LSA airplane precludes any such ever being "complex" because LSA must have only fixed pitch (or ground adjustable) prop and fixed gear.

Otherwise LSA can be used for PP and IR training if airplane is properly equipped since the definition of LSA doesn't preclude night and IR equipment being installed.
 
Definition of LSA airplane precludes any such ever being "complex" because LSA must have only fixed pitch (or ground adjustable) prop and fixed gear.

Otherwise LSA can be used for PP and IR training if airplane is properly equipped since the definition of LSA doesn't preclude night and IR equipment being installed.

Does an amphibian LSA count as having retractable gear? It would still not meet the adjustable pitch prop. (At least I'm not going to stop the engine, get out and adjust it while gliding, get back in a restart.) :D

John
 
Does an amphibian LSA count as having retractable gear? It would still not meet the adjustable pitch prop. (At least I'm not going to stop the engine, get out and adjust it while gliding, get back in a restart.) :D

John

As far as I can tell by section 61.31, any seaplane with flaps and controllable pitch prop is all that is needed for complex; no need for retractable gear. Ironically, the FAA does now allow the equivalent of retractable gear for amphibian LSA. At least that is my understanding.
 
The GSXR is the Suzi sportbike. Yours is certainly sporty though. I imagine it's way more comfortable too.

Its funny, the first time I rode a bike I was utterly hooked. The first time I flew an aircraft was utterly petrified.

Oh, and don't let all that hot weather keep you from wearing your gear. Save your life, it can. Too hot for gear, too hot to ride.

Actually, my son, in addition to turning me on to the new sport bikes (and the GSX650F is, indeed, a "sport bike", meaning that it is not a cruiser or a touring motorcycle -- although some have set it up for "sport touring". I consider it an "old man's sport bike" because of its slightly more upright seating position, and wider power band), turned me onto the new Joe Rocket riding gear.

Made of a nylon mesh, with strategically placed plastic armor (not unlike my old football uniform in Junior High), it allows the wind to blow right through, while still providing the ultimate in crash/abrasion protection. It is great stuff, and I've worn it in over 90-degree heat (all it ever gets on the island) in complete comfort.

Well, as close to comfort as you can get, in 90+ degree heat! Hot is still hot, but I won't ride without proper gear. Been down once, some 30 years ago, and the only part of me that wasn't covered by leather -- my wrist -- was turned to hamburger.
 
If these clubs would simply collaborate many of these problems would be self-solving. When a local PRA chapter and a local Sport Pilot club started combining summer fly-ins BOTH clubs benfited and both clubs grew, had better events and attendance went through the roof!:hairraise:

The PRA invited a PPC org to share national convention time and location. What happened? MORE vendors, more vendors making more money, more training, more seminars, more events and the SCALE of economy made all aspects of the conventions cheaper for the attendees and made more proceeds for the orgs and supporting clubs and vendors.

Meanwhile the isolationist clubs continue to die of apathy and attrition. :mad2: complaining all the way down. :(

This is the best post, yet. I agree with it 100%.

I have belonged to many flying organizations over the years. EAA, AOPA, AAA, primarily. I've started a few (Friends of Iowa City Airport, and a group to build an aviation exhibit at a local Children's Museum), too.

All share the problems you have outlined. EAA and AAA are prime examples of "birds of a feather" who simply could not see eye to eye or flock together. Interestingly, Paul Poberezny, founder of EAA, is a member of AAA (both EAA and AAA started the same year) and is a regular at the annual Blakesburg Fly-In. I have never heard anyone in high levels of AAA even MENTION going to OSH, although most of the members I know attend OSH regularly, if grudgingly.

Why is this? AAA decided to remain entirely non-commercial. You won't see Ford or Honda tents in Blakesburg. In fact, you won't see any tents at all. It is entirely pilot/member supported, and you can only attend if you are a member. Moreover, you can't join unless you are invited by another AAA member, although this is a formality that can easily be worked around in recent years.

Further, the fly-in is held on a private grass strip, in rural Iowa, making attendance even harder. This is all quite on purpose.

Despite this, they get fly-ins from all over the Western Hemisphere, everyone vying for the chance to see aircraft fly that are never seen anywhere else. Hard-core members are vocally anti-Oshkosh, anti-EAA. Of course, most of these members are in their 70s now, and look (to relative newbies like me) like the Church Lady from SNL stomping their canes on the floor. They will go to their grave hating "what Oshkosh has become" -- and if that means killing their own beloved organization, so be it.

In short, they are acting like children. If it can't be THEIR way, in their minds it shouldn't exist at all.

I, personally, love BOTH fly-ins. Blakesburg, utterly devoid of commercialism, is pure antique aircraft at their best. Lots of flying, lots of hangar talk. You want to talk elitism? Yep, limiting admission is definitely "elitist", but once you're "in" there's not much of it on display, even though you might be rubbing elbows with the likes of Addison Pemberton, Craig Fuller, or Paul Poberezney. Any one of them would probably take you for a ride in their (fill-in-the-blank) one of a kind antique airplanes, if you asked.

Try THAT at Oshkosh! I've attended 29 times, and I would not even DREAM of trying to fly during the show, unless I was departing the area. It's just too damned hard to get back to your camping spot, and the traffic is just too congested for a "fun flight" during the week. (It's always been ironic, but Oshkosh is often the one week of the year I fly LEAST.)

Now imagine if these great groups would work together? Just think of what could be accomplished! Won't happen.

My one example of getting ALL groups involved for the greater good of GA has been the aviation exhibit at the Iowa Children's Museum, in Coralville, Iowa. We took that from zero to a world-class exhibit by getting ALL facets of GA together -- EAA, AAA, avionics giants like Rockwell-Collins, the local radio control club, Friends of Iowa City Airport -- EVERYONE got involved, and got 'er done.

It was like capturing lightning in a bottle. I wish we could keep that spirit alive, and see more successes like that one.
 
Ouch (probably the TBO on that round motor).
-- P

Actually that seems pretty affordable. I can't imagine they make money at that rate and I'd gladly pay it. I pay that much to rent a Debonair and I doubt a stearman is cheaper to operate.
 
Actually that seems pretty affordable. I can't imagine they make money at that rate and I'd gladly pay it. I pay that much to rent a Debonair and I doubt a stearman is cheaper to operate.

Plus... I mean really, how many places can you rent a Stearman? That's just cool. :yes:
 
Say again why you think both groups shouldn't have their fly-in the way they want to have it? And whether they have one fly-in or two, how much difference does it make to the ongoing health or growth of GA?

This is the best post, yet. I agree with it 100%.

I have belonged to many flying organizations over the years. EAA, AOPA, AAA, primarily. I've started a few (Friends of Iowa City Airport, and a group to build an aviation exhibit at a local Children's Museum), too.

All share the problems you have outlined. EAA and AAA are prime examples of "birds of a feather" who simply could not see eye to eye or flock together. Interestingly, Paul Poberezny, founder of EAA, is a member of AAA (both EAA and AAA started the same year) and is a regular at the annual Blakesburg Fly-In. I have never heard anyone in high levels of AAA even MENTION going to OSH, although most of the members I know attend OSH regularly, if grudgingly.

Why is this? AAA decided to remain entirely non-commercial. You won't see Ford or Honda tents in Blakesburg. In fact, you won't see any tents at all. It is entirely pilot/member supported, and you can only attend if you are a member. Moreover, you can't join unless you are invited by another AAA member, although this is a formality that can easily be worked around in recent years.

Further, the fly-in is held on a private grass strip, in rural Iowa, making attendance even harder. This is all quite on purpose.

Despite this, they get fly-ins from all over the Western Hemisphere, everyone vying for the chance to see aircraft fly that are never seen anywhere else. Hard-core members are vocally anti-Oshkosh, anti-EAA. Of course, most of these members are in their 70s now, and look (to relative newbies like me) like the Church Lady from SNL stomping their canes on the floor. They will go to their grave hating "what Oshkosh has become" -- and if that means killing their own beloved organization, so be it.

In short, they are acting like children. If it can't be THEIR way, in their minds it shouldn't exist at all.

I, personally, love BOTH fly-ins. Blakesburg, utterly devoid of commercialism, is pure antique aircraft at their best. Lots of flying, lots of hangar talk. You want to talk elitism? Yep, limiting admission is definitely "elitist", but once you're "in" there's not much of it on display, even though you might be rubbing elbows with the likes of Addison Pemberton, Craig Fuller, or Paul Poberezney. Any one of them would probably take you for a ride in their (fill-in-the-blank) one of a kind antique airplanes, if you asked.

Try THAT at Oshkosh! I've attended 29 times, and I would not even DREAM of trying to fly during the show, unless I was departing the area. It's just too damned hard to get back to your camping spot, and the traffic is just too congested for a "fun flight" during the week. (It's always been ironic, but Oshkosh is often the one week of the year I fly LEAST.)

Now imagine if these great groups would work together? Just think of what could be accomplished! Won't happen.

My one example of getting ALL groups involved for the greater good of GA has been the aviation exhibit at the Iowa Children's Museum, in Coralville, Iowa. We took that from zero to a world-class exhibit by getting ALL facets of GA together -- EAA, AAA, avionics giants like Rockwell-Collins, the local radio control club, Friends of Iowa City Airport -- EVERYONE got involved, and got 'er done.

It was like capturing lightning in a bottle. I wish we could keep that spirit alive, and see more successes like that one.
 
Say again why you think both groups shouldn't have their fly-in the way they want to have it? And whether they have one fly-in or two, how much difference does it make to the ongoing health or growth of GA?

I don't mean to imply that they shouldn't have their own fly-ins at all. What they need to do is work together to grow aviation, since there is obviously hard feelings (at least AAA toward EAA; not so much the other direction), and both organizations have experienced major declines in membership.
 
Yep, limiting admission is definitely "elitist", but once you're "in" there's not much of it on display, even though you might be rubbing elbows with the likes of Addison Pemberton, Craig Fuller, or Paul Poberezney. Any one of them would probably take you for a ride in their (fill-in-the-blank) one of a kind antique airplanes, if you asked.

This very much reminds me about the Quiet Birdmen club at my field. It was supposedly founded by Charles Lindbergh. They meet in old hangars and have topless women serve drinks. And it has something to do with aviation.

BTW, I never heard that "AAA" existed before I read this post (except the AAA that dispatches tow trucks).

-- Pete
 
This very much reminds me about the Quiet Birdmen club at my field. It was supposedly founded by Charles Lindbergh. They meet in old hangars and have topless women serve drinks. And it has something to do with aviation.

BTW, I never heard that "AAA" existed before I read this post (except the AAA that dispatches tow trucks).
I also had to look up AAA. Then I realized it was the organization that I have heard called "The Antiquers" in the past. I didn't know much else about them. I found out there is an active chapter in this area with members I know from other places.

I have also heard of the Quiet Birdmen. I remember years ago when some guy was trying to convince my former boss (then in his 60s) to join. He didn't try to convince me. :dunno:
 
172 small?

Not at 8gal/hr avgas!

Flight schools (especially smaller ones) should have switched to LSAs by now or at least have 162's on order.

Example:

Flight School, Waynesville Ohio.

Cost is per hour and includes fuel and oil.

Airplanes
J3 Cub: $58.00 and $63.00
Champ: $58.00

C150: $67.00
C172: $88.00
Citabria: $103.00
Piper Arrow: $132.00
Decathlon: $150.00
Stearman PT-17: $173.00

Add instruction in any of the above for $35/hr.

Instruction is done by NON-ATP candidates! So you actually get trained by someone who wants to train and cares about the student.

How many successful driving schools are teaching in 1973 V8's ?

Attitude and culture change!!
Those costs are INCREDIBLY low...

In Dallas, Denver, and Lincoln (the three places I'm familiar with), a 172 will cost between $125-150. A 150 is between $75-90. Cherokee 180's are from $100-115. Debs are $175ish, as Jesse said. Bos are north of $200.

Instruction is from $35-60.

Seriously, consider yourself fortunate. If I could fly as cheaply as you can I'd never leave the airport.
 
Those costs are INCREDIBLY low...

In Dallas, Denver, and Lincoln (the three places I'm familiar with), a 172 will cost between $125-150. A 150 is between $75-90. Cherokee 180's are from $100-115. Debs are $175ish, as Jesse said. Bos are north of $200.

Instruction is from $35-60.

Seriously, consider yourself fortunate. If I could fly as cheaply as you can I'd never leave the airport.

They are very good prices (at waynesville), but you might have missed the earlier posts that this was in reply too.

The airport(s) near you have dropped the ball and appear to be a hazard to aviation and themselves.

These airports should have at least one (if not more) LSA class aircraft so that they would be able to offer core training at a price that is affordable.

Having the smallest and cheapest trainer being a 172 is like a driving school trying to be successful and relevant by teaching in cars from 1973 equipped with V8 engines.:mad2:

Even vintage LSA class aircraft are cheaper to own and operate then 172's and in many respects a better trainer.

My wife and many friends have learned in the LSA Cubs at Waynesville and they actually have STICK AND RUDDER SKILLS that are sorely missing in nearly every 172 trained pilot I know that has not moved on to aerobatics. :(

.
Seriously, consider yourself fortunate. If I could fly as cheaply as you can I'd never leave the airport.

EXACTLY!!!!! More Flying. And because cost of learning to fly is the #1 barrier for most people to get lessons and become pilots we would also have MORE PILOTS.

More pilots and more flying is good for every aspect of aviation from cost of planes, parts, events, instruction the list is endless. :goofy:

.
 
And that's the thing, if I could afford an LSA without a 100K purchase price, then yeah it would be an alternative. Somebody mentioned the operating cost comparison with a harley; the only difference is the acquisition cost.

Same thing applies to the rental market. If these FBOs could acquire these airplanes at the same cost of the ratted out 172 then it could be a win win. In short, the only reason LSAs are so inflated is that they are largely catering to the demographic that is losing their medicals and still can afford the inflated operation cost of the standard category aircraft they had to part with. We need to de-couple that dynamic, I do hope as this demographic dies off the LSA market deflates in pricing, supported by an increased base at the bottom of that price rung that floods the market with LSAs and makes affordability more attainable. 8gal/hr to go 100kts is no longer cost effective. Call me when I can do 130 @5gph (with a headwind) for the price of the harley....
 
We need more flying clubs. My local airport charges $135/hr for a 172. Plus I would need renter's insurance. So, I drive 1 hour to my club's airport and pay $95/hr plus $20/month for [group] insurance. As much as I love flying I wouldn't pay $135/hr.
 
Having the smallest and cheapest trainer being a 172 is like a driving school trying to be successful and relevant by teaching in cars from 1973 equipped with V8 engines.:mad2:
First time I have ever seen a 172 compared to a muscle car. :goofy:
 
We need more flying clubs. My local airport charges $135/hr for a 172. Plus I would need renter's insurance. So, I drive 1 hour to my club's airport and pay $95/hr plus $20/month for [group] insurance. As much as I love flying I wouldn't pay $135/hr.


I agree. However, from my limited experience, a lot of the clubs i've seen, have much more complex/high performance airplanes costing a lot to operate. They may or may not be "cheap" for the type of plane, but from the absolute standpoint of wanting to fly cheap, it might not work out.

I've also seen some flying clubs with just regular trainers, like 172's and Warrior's and they charge just as much as the FBO!

I know cheap clubs exist though. But, you're right, we do need more flying clubs, with more basic planes (for us low time pilots tryin to build cheaply)
 
Instruction is from $35-60.
I'm $25 at KLNK. Although if other people here are charging $35 I probably should too. I don't want to undercut anyone.

That said I actually charge for my time. A lot of instructors really fail in that area. There is a lot of time spent with a student when the hobbs isn't turning.
 
If this is so simple to you, why haven't the FBO's figured it out?

They are very good prices (at waynesville), but you might have missed the earlier posts that this was in reply too.

The airport(s) near you have dropped the ball and appear to be a hazard to aviation and themselves.

These airports should have at least one (if not more) LSA class aircraft so that they would be able to offer core training at a price that is affordable.

Having the smallest and cheapest trainer being a 172 is like a driving school trying to be successful and relevant by teaching in cars from 1973 equipped with V8 engines.:mad2:

Even vintage LSA class aircraft are cheaper to own and operate then 172's and in many respects a better trainer.

My wife and many friends have learned in the LSA Cubs at Waynesville and they actually have STICK AND RUDDER SKILLS that are sorely missing in nearly every 172 trained pilot I know that has not moved on to aerobatics. :(

.


EXACTLY!!!!! More Flying. And because cost of learning to fly is the #1 barrier for most people to get lessons and become pilots we would also have MORE PILOTS.

More pilots and more flying is good for every aspect of aviation from cost of planes, parts, events, instruction the list is endless. :goofy:

.
 
If this is so simple to you, why haven't the FBO's figured it out?

A lot of FBO operators are horrible businessmen. They got into it because they wanted to fly, not because they wanted to run a business. Unfortunately, it shows.

There are exceptions. Wisconsin Aviation (MSN, RYV, UNU) is a good one. Of course, they still don't get LSA's but at least you can rent a 152 or 172 for a reasonable cost, and have things like the Arrow, Dakota, and Seneca to move up to.

But, it seems like the established aviation industry just has not gotten on the LSA bandwagon at all. After all, who would want to fly a NEW 2-seater for the same price as an old, clapped-out 172? :rolleyes:
 
But, it seems like the established aviation industry just has not gotten on the LSA bandwagon at all. After all, who would want to fly a NEW 2-seater for the same price as an old, clapped-out 172? :rolleyes:

So, I have $100k sitting around and I want to start a flight school.

Let's see -- I can buy two rental-able, IFR-equipped C172s for $35k and a 150 for $20k and then have $10k left for contingencies. Insurance will run $15k/ year, I'll figure 200 hours on each airplane each year. Harry on the field says he'll rebuild the old Continentals.

Or I can buy one LSA with a newfangled engine Harry won't touch for $110k.

Oh -- and hull insurance will be unavailable for the shiny new LSA.

:(

Yep -- terrible businessmen.
 
I agree. However, from my limited experience, a lot of the clubs i've seen, have much more complex/high performance airplanes costing a lot to operate. They may or may not be "cheap" for the type of plane, but from the absolute standpoint of wanting to fly cheap, it might not work out.

What the club has done for me is to allow me to get into go-places airplanes and have the scheduling flexibility and freedom from silly rules to actually use them to go places! That has done WONDERFUL things for my flying, kept me flying lots of hours per year, and just been a great all-around experience. So much so, that even though I moved and am now a minimum 1.5-hour drive from the airport, I'm still there.

We do have an Archer for "cheap" flying (though with the price of fuel, it's not so cheap any more). It's got an IFR GPS and an up-to-date database like the rest of our fleet, but the paint and interior are pretty bad. I would *really* like to replace it with an LSA - Few people use the Archer for hauling lots of people, and that's what we have the 182 for anyway. One of the faster LSA's would go about as fast as the Archer. It'd also be much better-looking, and yes that does matter to a lot of people.

I've also gotten ZERO support for the idea from ANYONE else in the club. They just don't get what the whole LSA thing is about. :frown2: But, I think it could attract a lot of new members, both those who are losing (or have lost) their medicals, and those who want to learn how to fly.

Sigh.
 
So, I have $100k sitting around and I want to start a flight school.

You're an idiot. ;)

Let's see -- I can buy two rental-able, IFR-equipped C172s for $35k and a 150 for $20k and then have $10k left for contingencies. Insurance will run $15k/ year, I'll figure 200 hours on each airplane each year. Harry on the field says he'll rebuild the old Continentals.

Or I can buy one LSA with a newfangled engine Harry won't touch for $110k.

Or you can buy an entire fleet of Chiefs! :D

I wouldn't buy a 152 if I were starting a flight school. Too many people who don't fit in them these days. A lot of the LSA's have specs that compare favorably to the 152, but a lot more interior room.

If Harry doesn't want to work on the LSA's... Well, Harry can find some other business then. I'll hire someone who will work on them... Or get my A&P and do it myself. Hell, you don't even need an A&P to work on them - You can take an LSA repairman class and get into repairing them MUCH easier than you can get an A&P (Mike D from MHF just did this - And he'll be talking about it on Pilotcast #87), and after you gain enough experience working on LSA's, you can take the A&P test.

Seriously, though... $100K, I'd probably try to find a used though new-ish LSA. There are several Evektor SportStars on the market in the $70K's. I'd start with one of those, and a cheap LSA-compliant taildragger like the Chief. Or if I had $120K instead, I'd go for a SportStar and an old IFR 172, for example.

Oh -- and hull insurance will be unavailable for the shiny new LSA.

That should be less of a problem now. Insurance companies don't like "new" things. For example, when I first looked into getting a glass-panel DA40 for the club, they were going to force us to send everyone TO THE FACTORY in London, ON for training. Not workable. :no: As time went on, I'd check about once a year and eventually the requirement was reduced to watching the Sporty's G1000 DVD and getting four hours in the plane. Rates are better, too.

Yep -- terrible businessmen.

Not all of them - And there are a HUGE number who are OK businessmen, but they don't change much. If a fleet of 172's worked 30 years ago, a fleet of 172's will work now! But it doesn't. Even after accounting for inflation, a 172 costs 3 times what it used to, and that has to be paid for somehow. The rental price of any of the newer 172's is insane.

We keep talking about how younger people don't want to learn to fly, they just want to play video games. Bull****. There's plenty of them who want to learn to fly, but you're not going to reach them with the same ad in the yellow pages that worked 30 years ago. You need to have a good web site and practice good SEO so that it shows up on Google. You need to be on Twitter and Facebook. Take that back - You need to actually USE Twitter and Facebook the way they were meant to be used. And, you need to have airplanes that aren't older than your potential customers. Sure, *WE* all know that a 1978 C172 is perfectly safe, if maintained well - THEY don't! Guarantee they see that 1978 C172 parked next to a SportCruiser, they're going to want to fly the SportCruiser.

I haven't seen any FBO's that are doing all of these things. Wis Av is doing OK - They have an ad that comes up on Google when you search "learn to fly madison wi". They do have a Twitter and Facebook presence, but they don't do much with either. They have mostly old, ratty airplanes, with the exception of some newer less-ratty airplanes that are former ERAU birds. I think they also get a lot of "free" business because they operate at the main class C airline airport, so when people want to learn to fly they call "the airport" and ask, and Wis Av is the only flight school on the field.

Lots of potential business lessons to learn from Apple, too - We need to make this into a good USER EXPERIENCE.
 
Oh -- and hull insurance will be unavailable for the shiny new LSA.
Nonsense. N28GX is fully insured for the school operations. If Michael can do it, so could anyone else. Try to find a better point to snipe (PROTIP: Rotax is not it).
-- Pete
 
And, you need to have airplanes that aren't older than your potential customers. Sure, *WE* all know that a 1978 C172 is perfectly safe, if maintained well - THEY don't! Guarantee they see that 1978 C172 parked next to a SportCruiser, they're going to want to fly the SportCruiser.

I've done quite a few discovery flights -- not one had any idea how new or old the airplane was (not in the Chief, FWIW), and only a couple have even asked. A coat of paint on a 40 year old airplane will fool 99% of the aspiring aviators.

I haven't seen any FBO's that are doing all of these things. Wis Av is doing OK - They have an ad that comes up on Google when you search "learn to fly madison wi". They do have a Twitter and Facebook presence, but they don't do much with either. They have mostly old, ratty airplanes, with the exception of some newer less-ratty airplanes that are former ERAU birds. I think they also get a lot of "free" business because they operate at the main class C airline airport, so when people want to learn to fly they call "the airport" and ask, and Wis Av is the only flight school on the field.

Lots of potential business lessons to learn from Apple, too - We need to make this into a good USER EXPERIENCE.

It's a very local problem -- you have to be near folks with disposable income and the desire to learn to fly.

There are two active flight schools/FBOs within 50 miles of me -- one caters almost exclusively to the Community College crowd, the other has a single 172 that flies 200+ hours a month. The FBO nearer the large city also charges folks for "Taxi practice" when the weather is marginal, and schedules CFIS for 1 hour blocks -- total. So students might fly .75 of that. Guess how many hours it takes to earn the Private? Yeah -- lots.

I'm not disagreeing that we have to do a better job, but Apple is a very poor example as it has only recently rebounded from dark days and appeals to a niche, loyal market that buys in to the whole contra mantra.

The plain fact is the days of the Mon and Pop FBO are going the way of the Mom and Pop bookstore -- someone will always be able to point to an exception but it's still an exception to the general trend.
 
I've done quite a few discovery flights -- not one had any idea how new or old the airplane was (not in the Chief, FWIW), and only a couple have even asked. A coat of paint on a 40 year old airplane will fool 99% of the aspiring aviators.

True - But that makes your $35K C172 into a $43K C172.

And the interior has to be done. Now we're in the upper $40K's.

And the radios probably shouldn't be the old amber-display variety... In fact, a color GPS is almost a necessity to not look "old". Now we're over $60K... Wait, we can get a 5-year-old LSA with all that stuff already in it for only $10K more, and it'll burn half the fuel! (That's gonna be a huge factor... Well, it already is.)

The FBO nearer the large city also charges folks for "Taxi practice" when the weather is marginal, and schedules CFIS for 1 hour blocks -- total. So students might fly .75 of that. Guess how many hours it takes to earn the Private? Yeah -- lots.

Ugh. That's the kind of crap that needs to stop. :mad2:

I'm not disagreeing that we have to do a better job, but Apple is a very poor example as it has only recently rebounded from dark days and appeals to a niche, loyal market that buys in to the whole contra mantra.

The "rebound" began in 1998 and they've been going up, up, up ever since. But what I mean in bringing up Apple is this. Apple, for a long time, was all about "user interface." That's great, but when your flagship machine costs $10K without a keyboard, monitor, or video card and people have to actively seek out the only dealer in town who sells the stuff, and then worry about support... Well, the user interface doesn't really matter. That would be like a flight school saying "Hey, check out this COOL Garmin GTN 750 we just put in our C172! You should learn to fly!" It makes no sense.

What Apple has transformed into is focusing on the entire *user experience*. That's a large part of why they have their retail stores, and when you go to those stores, you really see the "new Apple" at work. The stores are well-lit, stylish, and "comfortable." You'll be greeted at the door, but not in a "can I get in your face and sell you something" kind of way. There's a short table with computers on it for the kids to play on while you talk to someone or browse around. The store isn't product-heavy, so it's reasonably easy to find what you're looking for. When you do, there's no waiting in line at a cash register - Each employee has an iPod Touch with a credit card scanner, and they'll swipe your card and the receipt will be in your email when you get home.

Then, you get home with your new iGadget and open the box. Instead of a ton of packaging, manuals, cables, etc. to dive through to extract your new toy, you simply open the box - And there it is. You start playing with it right away, and leave all the other "stuff" for later. The software that comes on it is fully functional, not demo crapware - It's good to go right away. If you have a problem, you can go to the store again and they'll fix it while you're there (excepting more complex hardware problems). If you call in on the phone for support, you talk to an easy-to-understand American, not a guy with a strong Indian accent named "Thomas" who's in "St. Louis".

All of those little things make a HUGE difference, and they're a large part of why Apple is still growing like crazy. Apple used to be the Mooney of computers - Lots of OWT's, and they had a great product but they weren't very good at selling it. Those who did buy them loved them. Luckily, with the iGadgets Apple has been able to transition to the role of market leader, and with people buying their other stuff and having that excellent experience with it, they start to think "Hey, maybe I'll get a Mac next time I get a new computer."

So... Instead of an average FBO, let's imagine a "new-school" FBO experience. "You" are a curious, potential student pilot to start off with.

First, you hear/see an ad on a local Radio/TV station, newspaper... Or you see something in Twitter or Facebook about learning to fly, and your curiosity is piqued. You go to awesomeFBO.aero and see that they not only have information about their fleet and rental rates, they also have a FAQ that covers a lot of your questions. You decide to go visit the FBO, and you walk in the door to find a clean, well-lit facility where you're immediately greeted with a smile. Upon finding out that you want to learn to fly, an instructor is summoned and quickly appears, and not only covers the basic requirements, but takes the time to show you the airplanes, discuss safety and costs in an honest manner, help you with some strategies to maximize your training dollar, and also tells you about some of the wonderful joys of flying. Finally, they ask if you'd like to have a taste, and they take you on a flight. The airplane is clean and in great shape inside and out, and looks like it's relatively new (<10 years), even if it's not. You and the CFI preflight, he explains exactly what you're looking for and why. You sit in the airplane while the instructor shows you the various things you need to know, and then you start up, taxi out, and take off. The instructor directs you to a heading, has you do some maneuvers but keeps you pointed in the same general direction. Another airport quickly appears, and you're surprised to find out you're already 5 towns over. The instructor walks you through your first landing, and you taxi in to another location of awesomeFBO, where the employees greet you with applause and welcome you to the world of aviation. They invite you in for a free cup of coffee and a cookie and you debrief with not only the instructor, but any other pilots or instructors who happen to be hanging out. After a little while, you hop back into the airplane and fly back to the point of origin, where the person at the desk smiles and welcomes you back by name while taking care of payment details.

(time passes)

You taxi in from your successful checkride, having completed in 45-50 hours thanks to some of the suggestions the FBO gave you for completing your training in an efficient manner. Your picture goes up on the wall - On their facebook wall, that is. Twitter, too, and the web site. Your instructor congratulates you, and makes arrangements with you for further instruction a couple weeks out, and talks with you about continuing to increase your skill and experience. You start going to the weekly "Night Out At The Airport" where you hang out with other aviators, tell stories, maybe take in an aviation movie, maybe see a safety presentation, but there's always something going on one night a week at the airport that keeps you coming back. You're continually encouraged, made to feel like a part of a community, and you start bringing friends along...

Now, doesn't that sound a hellofa lot better than what we've got now?
 
Ok, fine you have ONE trainer, and someone prangs it. Now what?
 
Ok, fine you have ONE trainer, and someone prangs it. Now what?

No, I have two. I have a nice SportStar and I have a Chief/T-craft/etc... And for a lot of smaller towns, that's all you can support anyway.

And even if I only have one, and someone wrecks it - Insurance company writes me a check, I buy another one. Probably won't be out of commission for more than a week, and with only one airplane I'll be out of commission for a week at annual time anyway, so I'll have to have some sort of plan for that. Alliance with another flight school where I might be able to borrow an airplane, for example.

All the problems are solvable.
 
You think it might have something to do with the fact that the guys who buy these new LSA's are also the ones who have to figure out a way to pay for them from rental income? How long does it take to pay for a 6-digit airplane? Have you noticed the posts by the guys who have no clue about running an FBO--or anything else--are the ones that are just sure the new LSA's are the answer?

A lot of FBO operators are horrible businessmen. They got into it because they wanted to fly, not because they wanted to run a business. Unfortunately, it shows.

There are exceptions. Wisconsin Aviation (MSN, RYV, UNU) is a good one. Of course, they still don't get LSA's but at least you can rent a 152 or 172 for a reasonable cost, and have things like the Arrow, Dakota, and Seneca to move up to.

But, it seems like the established aviation industry just has not gotten on the LSA bandwagon at all. After all, who would want to fly a NEW 2-seater for the same price as an old, clapped-out 172? :rolleyes:
 
No, I have two. I have a nice SportStar and I have a Chief/T-craft/etc... And for a lot of smaller towns, that's all you can support anyway.

And even if I only have one, and someone wrecks it - Insurance company writes me a check, I buy another one. Probably won't be out of commission for more than a week, and with only one airplane I'll be out of commission for a week at annual time anyway, so I'll have to have some sort of plan for that. Alliance with another flight school where I might be able to borrow an airplane, for example.

All the problems are solvable.

Down only a week?

:rofl:
:rofl:
 
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