Is Central PA mountain flying?

[AuntPeggy]

Its not a matter of smugness or "We're better than you," in this case, it is a matter of giving accurate information to someone who has a concern.

If the weather is low, then you'll experience weather issues comparable to flying around hills.

Don't ever take the ability to fly in the eastern "mountains" as being skills necessary to fly in the Rockies, that's how you get killed. If the mountains in the east are too much for you, climb a few feet and be out of them. That's the out that always exists out there.

Isn't it a point also that the Eastern mountains present mountain hazards as well. If one believes that Eastern mountains do not require any knowledge or consideration of mountain flying skills, then the Eastern mountains can be intolerant and unforgiving, too. The penalty for such an assumption might be death.

I personally would not be willing to cross Pennsylvania at 500 AGL. Even at 1000 AGL, the winds and downdrafts can push my C-172 (180 hp) down and backward at an alarming rate. I give these mountains their due respect.

 

[poadeleted20]

Isn't it a point also that the Eastern mountains present mountain hazards as well. If one believes that Eastern mountains do not require any knowledge or consideration of mountain flying skills, then the Eastern mountains can be intolerant and unforgiving, too. The penalty for such an assumption might be death.

Absolute truth.

 

[Anthony]

Isn't it a point also that the Eastern mountains present mountain hazards as well. If one believes that Eastern mountains do not require any knowledge or consideration of mountain flying skills, then the Eastern mountains can be intolerant and unforgiving, too. The penalty for such an assumption might be death.

I personally would not be willing to cross Pennsylvania at 500 AGL. Even at 1000 AGL, the winds and downdrafts can push my C-172 (180 hp) down and backward at an alarming rate. I give these mountains their due respect.

Any flying anywhere deserves respect under penalty of death. When you can fly over most PA "mountains" at 4,000 MSL or just a bit higher, the level of preparedness is hardly more than the rest of the state. You can just easily climb above these ridges, and that's what they are, ridges.

 

[steingar]

Any flying anywhere deserves respect under penalty of death. When you can fly over most PA "mountains" at 4,000 MSL or just a bit higher, the level of preparedness is hardly more than the rest of the state. You can just easily climb above these ridges, and that's what they are, ridges.

If you're at 4K MSL in ate PA mountains, most days you'll be in solid or intermittent IFR. Makes it hard to see those 5K peaks.

 

[Tom-D]

Would any one try making any flight without complying with 91.103?

it is that simple. don't go unless you are prepared.

91.103 Preflight action.
top

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include—

(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;

(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:

(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and

(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.

How much more simple cat it get? you as a PPL on day 1 of your practical exam were required to be able to do that.

 

[steingar]

All I've been saying is that both the Eastern and Western mountains can bite, but for different reasons. Both require some degree of specialized knowledge. Yeesh.

 

[timwinters]

I like this rule of thumb.

So for PA "mountains:"

The valleys are at 500ft, the peaks are at 1500ft, so you should fly at a minimum elevation of 2000ft.

I can see why that'd be tough

Good luck if you have an engine out!

That'll work great in PA. Not so much in CO, UT, WY, NM, MT, ID, AZ, WA, OR, NV, or CA.

I took off from my homebase north of Denver at 5050 MSL, headed straight west to Rollins pass at 11,600 MSL. That's a 6050 foot delta just to get to a pass, not clear the peaks. I wobbled over at Vx at 12,500 MSL which is below the peaks on either side of the pass.

I think I'm with most of the western pilots who are piping up here. PA "mountain flying" will require prudence, but not extra skills or training. Always have an out.

I assume you mean this is how it's done on relatively calm days when you don't have to worry about waves. The purpose of the 50% delta that I quoted was to keep you above mountain waves in all but the windiest days.

 

[Anthony]

If you're at 4K MSL in ate PA mountains, most days you'll be in solid or intermittent IFR. Makes it hard to see those 5K peaks.

Climb higher. Both your plane and mine can do that easily. If you are limited to scud running under a deck, that can be dangerous in ANY terrain. When I lived in Denver, I did not have that option.

While transitioning my home back to PA from KY I regularly flew over these ridges through WV and PA. Its a non-event. I just did it again a few weeks ago. I don't see the additional flight prepartaion other than having some water and a survival kit if you go down in some of this terrain. Other than that, climbing higher whether your VFR or IFR is easily accomplished in a NA piston single. Where's the additional prep needed?

 

[dpk1nba]

Isn't it a point also that the Eastern mountains present mountain hazards as well. If one believes that Eastern mountains do not require any knowledge or consideration of mountain flying skills, then the Eastern mountains can be intolerant and unforgiving, too. The penalty for such an assumption might be death.

I personally would not be willing to cross Pennsylvania at 500 AGL. Even at 1000 AGL, the winds and downdrafts can push my C-172 (180 hp) down and backward at an alarming rate. I give these mountains their due respect.

++1...

 

[dpk1nba]

If you're at 4K MSL in ate PA mountains, most days you'll be in solid or intermittent IFR. Makes it hard to see those 5K peaks.

5K peaks in Pa.? thats a good one. I think the highest MEF in the entire state is 45

 

[dpk1nba]

All I've been saying is that both the Eastern and Western mountains can bite, but for different reasons. Both require some degree of specialized knowledge. Yeesh.

I agree 100% with that statement

 

[dpk1nba]

Good luck if you have an engine out!



I assume you mean this is how it's done on relatively calm days when you don't have to worry about waves. The purpose of the 50% delta that I quoted was to keep you above mountain waves in all but the windiest days.

Mountain waves can and do regularly get all the way up into the flight levels. your not generally going to out climb mountain waves but if you are flying perpendicular to them you can ride the up draft portion

 

[Anthony]

5K peaks in Pa.? thats a good one. I think the highest MEF in the entire state is 45

Most are 2k - 3K ft. I don't know about you but I tend to stay above 7,000 ft. for most of my flying unless its just a local hop.

 

[dpk1nba]

Most are 2k - 3K ft. I don't know about you but I tend to stay above 7,000 ft. for most of my flying unless its just a local hop.

Higher is always safer. more time to think in an actual emergency

 

[COFlyBoy]

I assume you mean this is how it's done on relatively calm days when you don't have to worry about waves. The purpose of the 50% delta that I quoted was to keep you above mountain waves in all but the windiest days.

(Big) Mountain flying rules I've read or been taught (for normally aspirated planes/people):
1 - Winds below 25 knots (my personal max is 20kts)
2 - No mountain IFR (you're not going to make the MEA anyway so why bother trying)
3 - No night mountain flying

There are some other techniques that would be taught in a Mountain flying course which might be overkill for flying the PA mountains.
- Approaching ridges at a 45 degree angle is not as important when you are clearing the ridge by more than 2000 feet.
- I'm guessing hunting for passes is not as big an issue.
- Flying up a box canyon could be a problem, but can be mitigated with good navigation, which is a skill I'm thinking the OP already has.
- No DA issues

Someone else pointed out the overcast may be low, but I don't really think that that is a particular mtn flying skill that needs to be trained and tuned. Pretty easy to figure out if the clouds start at 3000MSL and the Mtns go up to 4000MSL, then you shouldn't be flying.

To sum up, I'm just saying that a western style mountain flying course may be overkill and not terribly applicable to flying in the Apps, or Shenandoah, or Smokies.

 

[AuntPeggy]

I would like to recommend the Revised Mountain Flying Bible by Sparky Imeson. We have a copy that was autographed by Sparky a few years before he (ironically) died in a mountain flying accident. http://www.mountainflying.com/products/mfbr_info.html

 

[timwinters]

Sparky was definitely one of the good guys.

 

[Clark1961]

(Big) Mountain flying rules I've read or been taught (for normally aspirated planes/people):
1 - Winds below 25 knots (my personal max is 20kts)
2 - No mountain IFR (you're not going to make the MEA anyway so why bother trying)
3 - No night mountain flying

I've been looking fairly hard at the standard guidance for light GA and mountain flying. After several flights FTG to 9U4, I've come to the conclusion that under certain circumstances some of the rules can be pushed at bit.

First off, I agree with no single engine mountain IFR. Not because of MEAs but because of the precision and performance required on approach. I've flown a couple mtn approaches under foggles and there just isn't a huge margin for error like there is on many flatland approaches.

Winds can be a different story. My last flight I ran into un-forecast 40 knot headwinds. The ride wasn't bad but I had to pick the route carefully to avoid obviously bad areas (if there weren't rotors downwind of the peaks then I don't know what they were). Getting high and staying away from the roughest terrain helped. This method won't work when there is nothing but rough country ahead but it does work westbound up near the CO-WY boarder.

Night mtn flight, well, I've thought about it but haven't gone there yet. I think I'd be okay following I-80 eastbound in known VMC but haven't worked myself up to it yet. It might be a lot better than a bumpy late afternoon flight out of the hills.

 

[Everskyward]

Night mtn flight, well, I've thought about it but haven't gone there yet. I think I'd be okay following I-80 eastbound in known VMC but haven't worked myself up to it yet. It might be a lot better than a bumpy late afternoon flight out of the hills.

This is what I've come to realize about flying at night in the mountains. It makes a big difference if there is a moon. If there is a moon and also snow it's almost like day. If something is dark it could be a cloud or a hill. If you're going to spiral down, or up, it's good to do it over a town. Unless you are very familiar with the area around the airport, stick to the IFR approach even when VFR.

 

[gkainz]

speaking of mountain wave, just saw a news crawler across the boob tube that a flight was diverted to DIA due to severe turbulance, numerous pax injuries...

 

[poadeleted20]

Would any one try making any flight without complying with 91.103?

Regrettably, it happens a lot. Fortunately, the OP is trying to gather that information.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap5/aim0506.html

 

[timwinters]

speaking of mountain wave, just saw a news crawler across the boob tube that a flight was diverted to DIA due to severe turbulance, numerous pax injuries...

Yeah, those mountain waves over Missouri can be quite severe this time of the year!

 

[flyersfan31]

Dave posted the graphic I was thinking about. The FAA considers the Appalachians to be mountainous terrain. They've caused a lot of crashes, especially in WV.

Is it as serious as out west? No. You're probably not going to be threading thru terrain that soars 2-3000ft above you. However, it can be bumpy, and icy.

Joe (OP), that route will be fine. If you have a PPL, you can handle it. As others have mentioned, if there is wind at the surface, you'll get some bumps -- those ridges are like ski jumps for winds. THat, and you get a lot of convection from the plowed farm fields, although that mostly dissipates mroe than 2000agl.

I have to laugh.

Easterners post questions about mountains, and Westerners scoff and joke.

Westerners post questions about the challenges of airspace that is not Class G, and Easterners scoff and joke.

 

[Ted]

I have to laugh.

Easterners post questions about mountains, and Westerners scoff and joke.

Westerners post questions about the challenges of airspace that is not Class G, and Easterners scoff and joke.

Funny, I was thinking that, too. When I was in Colorado last week, I was the only piston aircraft I heard that was flying IFR. Otherwise, it was all turbines. Around here it's the opposite.

However, I don't think you need any special training to fly around here. The turbulence you might get isn't a big deal. Mountain waves have been interesting, but never more than an annoyance. I view the biggest challenge as night landings when in unfamiliar areas. On Sunday we had a night landing coming home from Syracuse. I don't like coming in from the north, because Williamsport sits in a basin between two ridges. If you're coming from the east or west it's fine, but from the north or south you end up needing to do a quick drop. If you do a standard descent as is fine in the mid-west, you'll hit terrain.

My instructor gave me good advice when I started: If landing at an unfamiliar airport at night, shooting an instrument approach in is a good idea.

 

[COFlyBoy]

I have to laugh.

Easterners post questions about mountains, and Westerners scoff and joke.

Westerners post questions about the challenges of airspace that is not Class G, and Easterners scoff and joke.

I was flying from Denver to La Junta last Thursday, and the visibility was starting to drop. I was getting nervous when the vis was about 9 miles. Usually you can see from Denver to Kansas.

 

[Ted]

I was flying from Denver to La Junta last Thursday, and the visibility was starting to drop. I was getting nervous when the vis was about 9 miles. Usually you can see from Denver to Kansas.

I'm more at ease in a cloud than in VMC.

 

[Everskyward]

Funny, I was thinking that, too. When I was in Colorado last week, I was the only piston aircraft I heard that was flying IFR. Otherwise, it was all turbines. Around here it's the opposite.

That's because the weather was nice and the only airplanes flying IFR were the one that normally do it anyway.

Seriously though, I've heard people comment that there are very few true entry level piston charter jobs here because most charter companies don't even have piston airplanes.

 

[SkyHog]

I have to laugh.

Easterners post questions about mountains, and Westerners scoff and joke.

Westerners post questions about the challenges of airspace that is not Class G, and Easterners scoff and joke.

I disagree about the airspace. We have more different types of airspace out here.

The better joke is to refer to "OMG, visibility of <5nm? Why that's practically IMC!" for us. Westerners (on the whole) don't do well in reduced vis.

 

[Tom-D]

Regrettably, it happens a lot. Fortunately, the OP is trying to gather that information.

Regrettably many pilots do not remember what they were taught in PPL training.

we all were taught how to do weather, including winds, DA, and navigation by pilotage.


I guess it's too simple to call the airport manager and ask for the gottchas for the area.

 

[Ted]

That's because the weather was nice and the only airplanes flying IFR were the one that normally do it anyway.

Joke taken, but around here you have a lot of people who fly IFR in piston aircraft because it's easier, even in perfect VMC. Truthfully it is. Don't like your clearance? You can always argue with the controller for something better, and most of the time it works.

Seriously though, I've heard people comment that there are very few true entry level piston charter jobs here because most charter companies don't even have piston airplanes.

I'd believe that! It seemed to me like even a pressurized piston twin would be pushing it a bit for charter work, whereas it's still pretty doable in the eastern half of the country.

 

[flyersfan31]

But the other thing "we" (I anyway) find amusing is the need for onboard weather and "strikefinders." Clouds and fog aside, thunderstorms aren't a concern here, at least in the flatlands.

Flying is definitely a lot more relaxing when you can see the thunderstorms from 100mi away, no technology required!! Embedded thunderstorms suck.

 

[Ted]

Flying is definitely a lot more relaxing when you can see the thunderstorms from 100mi away, no technology required!! Embedded thunderstorms suck.

Egh, I used to feel that way, but it seems like every storm I've dealt with this year has been embedded. Now it's just another day at work. The big thing is understanding what your equipment is telling you and reacting accordingly.

I would like a strikefinder, though.

 

[AdamZ]

I was flying from Denver to La Junta last Thursday, and the visibility was starting to drop. I was getting nervous when the vis was about 9 miles. ...

Hell thats CAVU here on the east coast in the summer LOL

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Flying is definitely a lot more relaxing when you can see the thunderstorms from 100mi away

a couple hours ago I was here (X) and could see the buildup that became this (O)....probably 200nm! I am spoiled now; get fidgety when vis drops below 50nm.

 

[flyersfan31]

a couple hours ago I was here (X) and could see the buildup that became this (O)....probably 200nm! I am spoiled now; get fidgety when vis drops below 50nm.

That's exactly what I'm talking about! Just a whole different world out west.