jasc15
Pre-takeoff checklist
I visit PA often to see my girlfriend, and I want to fly from KZER (Schuylkill County) to KUNV (State College) next time I visit. Is this something I could tackle without training?
Is Central PA mountain flying?
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Tom-D
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You should be Ok going there.
I'm not going to be as dismissive as Tom is; you can still get some turbulance ad rotors off these smaller mountains when the wind is blowing right and I've seen airports in the valleys get fogged in until the sun rises enough to burn it off. You still need to know your altitude and keep track where you are when you get below the peaks to land, but they aren't the Rocky mountains either.
I'm not going to be as dismissive as Tom is; you can still get some turbulance ad rotors off these smaller mountains when the wind is blowing right and I've seen airports in the valleys get fogged in until the sun rises enough to burn it off. You still need to know your altitude and keep track where you are when you get below the peaks to land, but they aren't the Rocky mountains either.
Rob Schaffer
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From a more local perspective....
I flew from N10 just north of Philadelphia to State College for my long solo XC during my training. There are still things to consider, valley fog and ridge winds, but on a typical day wouldn't be anything unusual for a typical pilot.
If you have flown northern Jersey and over to the Wilkes Barre area, it is pretty much the same. I prefer to maintain 1000 above the ridge when crossing if winds are 15-20 knots or more.
UNV is a nice airport and friendly FBO.
I flew from N10 just north of Philadelphia to State College for my long solo XC during my training. There are still things to consider, valley fog and ridge winds, but on a typical day wouldn't be anything unusual for a typical pilot.
If you have flown northern Jersey and over to the Wilkes Barre area, it is pretty much the same. I prefer to maintain 1000 above the ridge when crossing if winds are 15-20 knots or more.
UNV is a nice airport and friendly FBO.
jasc15
Pre-takeoff checklist
Thanks guys. You can barely call them mountains, but I didn't want to just dismiss it as being no problem. And good to hear that UNV is good. There are a few around there, and was going to ask which is recommended.
Just keep your wits about you. I have encountered mountain waves flying in the lee of the Catskills. Periods where it took wide open throttle and Vy airspeed to maintain altitude, followed by throttle way back and nose low attitude also to maintain altitude. But if you are expecting it, it won't be a problem in weather you are likely to want to fly in.
-Skip
I'd call it "mountain flying lite"
It's not nearly as bad as other mountainous areas and density altitude is rarely a concern, but they are not the East Coast nor the Great Plains. If a plane hits them, they are just as hard as the ones out west.
Rob Schaffer and Skip Miller posted some good information; my experience is the same as theirs.
dmccormack
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This isn't "Mountain flying" as in "requires special training."
It is different than flying in airport rich, coastal areas where a glance out the window can settle your position within 2 miles.
There is a disoreinting sameness to the endless ridges that run angled across Pennsylvania. The northern half is a hilly plateau, with more green-covered emptiness than you'll see anywhere in LI, NJ, DE, or MD combined.
The weather between Laurel Ridge and Blue Mountain (the western and eastern edges of these "mountains") is always -- always -- slightly different than east or west of the ridges, and usually it's worse.
UNV is in a large bowl that contains Happy Valley. When you land, look around at the ridges and realize that it's good to be able to see them.
Flying SEL at night increases risk -- it's doable, but adds risk. Follow a routing over airports for some cushion. Losing the big fan at night over this terrain means you are out of options. Sheer luck will determine your continued existence.
More than one aviator has come to grief smacking against lousy, not-really-mountains topography around here.
Arbiter419
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And then there's the Pennsylvania haze...
If you come up to ZER, let me know and we can go flying or something...I do my flying out of 8N8/SEG.
If you come up to ZER, let me know and we can go flying or something...I do my flying out of 8N8/SEG.
AdamZ
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Adam Zucker
Bzzzt FAIL! Sorry Tom they are mountains, yea yea they aren't the cascades or rockies for sure but there are some things that are unique to flying the Alleghenys and even Poconos.
Actually not only can valley fog be an issue but and Dan will probably attest the haze can be horrible. I have flow in to KUNV on a summer evening and eventhough everything was reporting VFR I had to do the ILS 24 the haze was that bad
Don't be dismissve and call them barely mountains. 2000' of rock can kill you as well as 12,000' of rock. Do you need a mountain course to fly them. I'd say no. Look I wouldn't fly through colorado or Idaho or Washington with out a good mountain course but while that type of course is not necessary here in PA in my opinion you need to know the topography and how it affects the Wx and viz. I too have found myself using full throttle to arrest since on the lee side of one of the ridges.
Good assesment, and in PA Winter and early spring bring and entire different element to flying the mountains in PA and that is ICE, The ridges here in PA could use a Zamboni they create so much ice.
timwinters
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Speaking of the eastern mountain range in it's entirety...
I've found that if you're simply flying OVER them enroute then they're far safer than the "real" mountains out west because you can provide yourself with more separation w/o needing oxygen and/or a turbo.
But if you're flying TO them...then that's a whole 'nother story. There are some peak to valley "delta elevations" rivaling some of those in the west and that's what kicks the bumps especially in some of the areas with higher peaks.
I've found that if you're simply flying OVER them enroute then they're far safer than the "real" mountains out west because you can provide yourself with more separation w/o needing oxygen and/or a turbo.
But if you're flying TO them...then that's a whole 'nother story. There are some peak to valley "delta elevations" rivaling some of those in the west and that's what kicks the bumps especially in some of the areas with higher peaks.
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I forgot about the haze...probably because Southern NJ is a can be really hazy too. Sometimes PA looked clear compared to NJ, and what Nebraskans call hazy looks completely clear to me.
dmccormack
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Worst haze I've ever encountered was over DC while climbing out of Shannon. I was on the gauges -- only vis was straight down.
We get that here often, but usually you clear the haze layer at 5 or 6k.
Not always.
flyingcheesehead
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Simple answer - No. These mountains can be cleared by a mile (literally) in any old non-turbocharged single-engine airplane. Well, okay, maybe not a J-3 (or a Chief 
) that still has 65hp that's in need of an overhaul, but your average bugsmasher can climb WAY above any of the eastern rocks.
The highest MEF near your route is 2700 feet. Would I fly the trip at 3000 feet without training? No. But climb to 6500 and you probably won't notice any difference unless the winds are strong. The nearest peak close to your route for the descent is 2300 feet and 7nm from the field - Should be easy to avoid.
Now, if you want to have some fun and fly CLOSE to the rocks - Get some training. Give them a wide berth, and you'll be fine as long as you pay attention to what they do to weather.
) that still has 65hp that's in need of an overhaul, but your average bugsmasher can climb WAY above any of the eastern rocks. The highest MEF near your route is 2700 feet. Would I fly the trip at 3000 feet without training? No. But climb to 6500 and you probably won't notice any difference unless the winds are strong. The nearest peak close to your route for the descent is 2300 feet and 7nm from the field - Should be easy to avoid.
Now, if you want to have some fun and fly CLOSE to the rocks - Get some training. Give them a wide berth, and you'll be fine as long as you pay attention to what they do to weather.
Tom-D
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yep very unique, you can go over the top at 4500'
DC? That wasn't haze or fog- that was political obfuscation
SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
LOL. No.
They're not mountains when you can climb 1000 feet higher and free yourself of any of the effects of them.
They're not mountains when you can climb 1000 feet higher and free yourself of any of the effects of them.
dmccormack
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1,000?
I've been ten times that and been beat up pretty good.
Mountains in NC are real -- fly into KAVL on a CAVU day then go back IMC.
Everskyward
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I think this is the answer here that I agree with most. A 1,000' mountain will hurt just as much as a 12,000' mountain if you hit it. I've been based in Colorado for a long time and have flown all kinds of airplanes in the 'real' mountains. I never thought much about the mountains in the east until one day when we did a circling approach into Pittsfield, MA. Those mountains looked really big and really close...
dmccormack
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Dan Mc
Cumberland, MD will provide that same thrill, as will Elkins, WV.
jmcsherry
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The trip from Zerby to University Park should be a nice one, in a craft with which you are fully familiar. It ought not need "mountain flying" special training, like the box canyon stuff; but it does warrant some special attention and preparation. There is precious little flat open space available for an off-field landing, as my friend found out last month out that way. Instrument rated, CFI, in an Cherokee he once owned, he had an engine failure at 6500 MSL. He did find a landing place, but it was far from a trivial event. Remove the training, or the familiarity, or his preparation in knowing the terrain, and this could well have been a fatality instead of a drink at the Holiday Inn.
Keep as much altitude as you can. Be prepared for a spiral descent into a valley if you need to land suddenly. Be ready to find that one valley looks a lot like another; KUNV lies in a valley that looks kinda like the one just south of it - it is easy to descend too soon, then need to climb over the next ridge. If you do, climb well above it (esp if the winds are from NW - like most days).
A good GPS unit is an immense help.
Have a good time, and BE SAFE.
Jim
AdamZ
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Jim McSherry from MCA? Welcome to POA Jim.
Clark1961
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That's jus' 'cause that twin Cessna is way too fast...
DutchessFlier
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Interesting thread, and great information. I fly the Eastern Ranges, specifically the Catskills, Berkshires, Taconics and Adirondacks, virtually all the time, I agree that while not the Rockies, they require the same level of preparation and respect as any similiar terrain. It is sobering flying over the vast wilderness areas keeping an eye out for emergency landing spots, and not really seeing anything usable, except the treetops or bodies of water. And yeah, the valley fog, haze and winds can and do make for some challenges, and sometimes even with the best planning, surprises, (ask folks who fly the merge point in-between the Catskills and the Adirondacks where the Mohawk and Hudson River Valleys meet in a fresh NW wind about turbulence!) I guess the best advice is to always have an out or an alternate plan, lots of fuel, and I agree, a good GPS, even a handheld, is an essential item in the plane.
Night flying over these areas is a true leap of faith!
Night flying over these areas is a true leap of faith!
dmccormack
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An experienced, well-respected DPE and his passenger died last year in the Adirondacks (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20091117X60147&ntsbno=ERA10LA066&akey=1)
Flying at 4,000 doesn't assure terrain clearance over a 4,621 peak.
"Night, instrument meteorological conditions prevailed at the time, and no flight plan was filed..."
I've talked to a couple of local pilots that knew him -- they said no one has a clue why this happened.
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Everskyward
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I think the Twin Cessna was just a plan on a piece of paper back when this happened.
Trapper John
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Mountains don't have to be super tall to reach up and smite thee. Look at the mountains around Mena, AR - between Rich Mountain, Fourche Mountain and Black Mountain, there's probably 2 dozen crash sites...and they're "only" 2,700 - 2,800 msl.
dmccormack
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Right -- and probably most of those were scud runners.
All terrain has potential hazards that can lull the unwary pilot into complacency and stupidity.
When I've flown over the midwest I've thought, "This is like one big airstrip!"
Of course it would be great to buzz along 200' AGL feeling the rush of speed. Until that 2,000' foot tower interrupts.
dpk1nba
Pre-Flight
I suggest crossing at 2000' AGL minimum. even in Pa. the wind over the mountains, (or hills as they are called) if winds aloft are more than 15 knots, can exceed the climb cabability of your plane. (what do you fly?) It can take you by surprise if you are not used to flying in that kind of terrane. better safe than sorry. I trained out of Reading & Allentown PA. before moving to Montana.
poadeleted20
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There are places and times when flying in Central PA can demand some of the techniques we normally associate with flying in the Rocky Mountains. You're not fighting the DA issues we see west of Denver, but there can still be wind current issues over the ridges and even climb gradient issues at some of the valley airports. If you're a true flatland pilot (e.g., Delaware or Florida), you might want to read up on that sort of thing in the AIM Section 7-5-6 or a mountain flying book before going, but special flight training should not be required.
jasc15
Pre-takeoff checklist
I didnt figure it would be of much concern, but this trip may be my first time in a 172. The instructor at ZER says there is hardly a difference between it and a P28, but he may have more to say when i tell him i want to do a XC in it. Is this unadvisable?
This will really test my pilotage and DR skills, since the SEG VOR is unusable 10NM after i pass it. As short as this flight is, it should prove to be tougher than it looks.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Somewhere, sometime, somehow, I was taught that you should clear the peaks by a bare minimum 50% of the "delta elevation change". i.e. if the valleys are at 2000' and the peaks at 7000' then there is a 5000' elevation change and you should clear the peaks by at least 2500' and fly at a minimum altitude of 9500'.
This margin should keep you above any waves created by the moutains on most days.
SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
I like this rule of thumb.
So for PA "mountains:"
The valleys are at 500ft, the peaks are at 1500ft, so you should fly at a minimum elevation of 2000ft.
I can see why that'd be tough
Anthony
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Anthony
I like this rule of thumb.
So for PA "mountains:"
The valleys are at 500ft, the peaks are at 1500ft, so you should fly at a minimum elevation of 2000ft.
I can see why that'd be tough
Pretty much sums it up. I remember a thread on AOPA about mountain flying IN NEW JERSEY as I looked out my window at Mount Evans in Colorado, contemplating my flight to Leadville the next day.
Sorry PA is NOT mountain flying. Not even close.
COFlyBoy
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That'll work great in PA. Not so much in CO, UT, WY, NM, MT, ID, AZ, WA, OR, NV, or CA.
I took off from my homebase north of Denver at 5050 MSL, headed straight west to Rollins pass at 11,600 MSL. That's a 6050 foot delta just to get to a pass, not clear the peaks. I wobbled over at Vx at 12,500 MSL which is below the peaks on either side of the pass.
I think I'm with most of the western pilots who are piping up here. PA "mountain flying" will require prudence, but not extra skills or training. Always have an out.
steingar
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You westerners shouldn't be so smug. Like Dan said, density altitude issues are not as prevalent in the East, though they can be a factor if you are operating out of small strips. However, mountains make weather, and the eastern mountains make lots, since there's lots of water there. There isn't as much out west, so while density altitudes are a bigger concern, weather may not be as big a factor.
Flying VFR you can't always "just fly at 10K feet" since overcast layers can keep you low. Thus you get to duke it out with the rocks, at least that's what it feels like after a few hours.
Flying VFR you can't always "just fly at 10K feet" since overcast layers can keep you low. Thus you get to duke it out with the rocks, at least that's what it feels like after a few hours.
poadeleted20
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Personally, when doing checkouts, I like to focus on the airplane, its flight/handling characteristics, and its systems (including normal and emergency operations and procedures) initially, and later get into other issues like navigation to strange places with new nav gear only when the trainee has the airplane well in hand.
SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
Its not a matter of smugness or "We're better than you," in this case, it is a matter of giving accurate information to someone who has a concern.
If the weather is low, then you'll experience weather issues comparable to flying around hills.
Don't ever take the ability to fly in the eastern "mountains" as being skills necessary to fly in the Rockies, that's how you get killed. If the mountains in the east are too much for you, climb a few feet and be out of them. That's the out that always exists out there.
If the weather is low, then you'll experience weather issues comparable to flying around hills.
Don't ever take the ability to fly in the eastern "mountains" as being skills necessary to fly in the Rockies, that's how you get killed. If the mountains in the east are too much for you, climb a few feet and be out of them. That's the out that always exists out there.