Is a university education worth the cost?

John Baker

John Baker

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John Baker
On last nights evening news there was a segment that many Americans think that a university education for their children is just not worth the money anymore. They feel it is better for a young person to start a career debt free, rather than being buried under huge student loans, and the few jobs that are available, that are commensurate with their advanced educations. Many, if not most, end up working the same jobs as the people with just a high school or less education.

So...what do you guys think?


John​
 
Depends on the job and how hard it is to get past the HR robots.

I've done great with no degree but computers were new when I started and business was booming. Anyone who could spell both "computer" and could also troubleshoot a basic electronics circuit could find a job. Add in a little formal telecom training and you were almost invaluable in the boom years.

Nowadays, I think a lot of folks are hiding out in higher-Ed adding advanced or multiple degrees because they can finance it cheap, sometimes including living expenses if they're frugal.

Basically living life on a really big loan hoping for better days. Not sure that's wise, but they're doing what they think they need to do to survive.

Took my wife almost ten years to catch my salary with her degree and she's still paying off her Student Loans. (By choice. Student Loans are defaulted and not paid by your estate when you die, can be deferred in hard times with no credit score hit, and basically there's no point in paying them first before almost anything else, really. Cheapest loan you'll ever have with the easiest terms.)

But... Now she's headed into executive positions I wouldn't qualify for without a degree in my industry. So her lifetime income *if* she likes being the boss will out-pace mine.

I had a middle management job in my 20s. I chose not to take that "road in the yellow wood". Babysitting adults for a living paid well, but rubbed me the wrong way. I wanted to fire more of my staff than HR would have allowed.

The guy who played video games all day, they wouldn't fire. The guy who drank on the job, they wouldn't fire. Stuff like that was a good indoctrination about how corporations really run in the real world.

I went back to troubleshooting and fixing things. You can't fix stupid, as Ron White says!
 
John Baker said:
On last nights evening news there was a segment that many Americans think that a university education for their children is just not worth the money anymore. They feel it is better for a young person to start a career debt free, rather than being buried under huge student loans, and the few jobs that are available, that are commensurate with their advanced educations. Many, if not most, end up working the same jobs as the people with just a high school or less education.

So...what do you guys think?
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Well... I remember well the Onion greeting card that said:

(outside) "Congratulations on your degree in comparative literature!"
(inside) "See you at Hardee's."

BTW, that's Carl's Jr. for you Californians. ;)

There are some majors - Engineering, business, etc. - that are worth something in the real world. There are an awful lot of others that won't get you much of anywhere, except for as a stepping stone to Law school, dentistry, being an airline pilot, etc. where any old four-year degree would do.

So, depending on what the kid wants to do, I can see both sides.

I do think that there was a certain expectation for a long time that anyone who's going to be worth a crap in life HAD to go to college. Sorry, it just ain't so, and maybe people are finally starting to realize that.

The other thing is that the idea of going straight from high school to college is overrated. How many 18-year-olds really know what they want to do, and have the drive to follow through? Certainly some do, but I think there's an awful lot who don't, and they might be better served by going to the military or the workforce for a few years first and THEN going to college if they so choose.
 
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The fact is that high school is almost meaningless today and a college education is in today's world what a high school education was 50 years ago - the generally accepted norm. 50 years ago some kids went to a trade high school - today they go to community college. They may be better than the 4 year English major if they are in a field that is hard to export, such as plumbing, dentistry, geriatric care and so forth. However, it is increasingly important even for the owner of a small plumbing firm to have the financial, management and other business skills that may be better taught in school. Farm kids go to college and back to the farm.
My focus would be on getting solid skills that can be put to use now, will likely be needed long in the future adn are fairly hard to export. This says nothing about cheap labor coming in and undercutting, though.
 
I think a four-year degree is a requirement now to work in any field except trades (automotive, carpenter, plumber, electrician, butcher). And there's good money to be made in the trades if you're skilled in your trade and with customer service. But if you want to be a "boss" in any company but your own you are probably going to need the degree, and it's an entry level requirement for pretty much any "company" job.

With that said, I think for most the cheapest four-year degree is the way to go. I'm getting a B.S. from Utah Valley University right now, and it's all online and $200 per credit on average. That means my entire degree is gonna cost less than $24K. That's less than a year's tuition and room and board at many colleges.

Unless you've got a driving passion for soemthing that requires a graduate degree from a "name" school, then I don't think there's a lot of value in getting an undergraduate degree from a high-end institution.
 
My son is in his 3rd year of 5 going for a double major (ME, EE) he has as much skin in the game as mom and I. We pick up the tuition and he has room board and books. At the end of the day, I think it will be worth it for him with a double in engineering. It has been a tuff road (19-20 credits/semester) and lots of encouragement from us. I went for 2 years and went to work, my wife is a nurse, hopefully he won't have to work as long of hours as we have had to do to make things come together.:)
 
jnmeade said:
The fact is that high school is almost meaningless today .
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+1 on that sentiment. I hire veterinary technicians and receptionists. I have yet to meet a high school graduate (from within the past 7 or 8 years) that has the tools to even start to learn what they need to know. At a minimum, I want two years of community college. At least they have shown the initiative and ability to think past tonight's trip to the mall.

But I don't feel that a 4 year degree is right for everyone. Many skilled careers, like mechanics, carpenters, electricians, plumbers etc can make it if they can read with comprehension and figure out what we used to call "word problems" in math. But for anyone with ambition, dreams and goals of continued growth and improvement, then YES, a University degree is essential.

In my opinion, most with "Just" a high school education (and I am talking "about the new "dumbed down modern, high schools) are destined to be laborers of some type.

It took me 8 years to work my way through Ga. Tech (a State School) but I graduated with no student debt and have been thankful ever since.
 
Skyhawk4754 said:
My son is in his 3rd year of 5 going for a double major (ME, EE) he has as much skin in the game as mom and I. We pick up the tuition and he has room board and books. At the end of the day, I think it will be worth it for him with a double in engineering. It has been a tuff road (19-20 credits/semester) and lots of encouragement from us. I went for 2 years and went to work, my wife is a nurse, hopefully he won't have to work as long of hours as we have had to do to make things come together.:)
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Willie:

Good on your son for pursuing an engineering discipline - we have a desperate shortage of engineers brewing in our republic.

---

As for the original topic: a degree can be useful, if it is relevant to something one intends to do, or helps to allow access to needed post-graduate stuff. Ac tually, read Kent's post above - he said it all best.
 
John Baker said:
On last nights evening news there was a segment that many Americans think that a university education for their children is just not worth the money anymore. They feel it is better for a young person to start a career debt free, rather than being buried under huge student loans, and the few jobs that are available, that are commensurate with their advanced educations. Many, if not most, end up working the same jobs as the people with just a high school or less education.

So...what do you guys think?


John​
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No. Its not.
 
It was never an issue whether my kids would go to college. Both my wife and I have college degrees, and we believe in education.

We started saving for both my kid's education when they were born. We also made them put half of everything they earned in their education account. Both kids started working when they were 15. We made them put half of any Christmas or Birthday money that they got from their grandparents into their education account. My daughter went to Iowa State University, and she had enough money, with a little help from us, to make it through to her degree. My son ended up with an academic scholarship to Iona College in New York. He used his money for living expenses and books. He also got through with just a little help from us and by working part time. The college that my son went to is expensive. One kid that my son knows ended up with over a hundred thousand in loans by the time he graduated. I just don't know how a kid that age is going to pay off that much money just starting out like that. Anyway, my son graduated a week ago Sunday. Both kids through college, and no loans to pay off. As far as I'm concerned, they both have the tools to succeed, now it is up to them to put them to use.
 
This is just an interesting story I think. My father does not have a high school education. He became a farmer back in the forties and ended up owning a couple of farms and becoming a very successful farmer. He retired in the seventies and my brother-in-law took over the farming operations. As soon as my dad retired from farming, he got a job at Ames Lab, which is part of Iowa State University and worked there for quite a while. I could never figure out why he worked there, he didn't need the money. I just thought that he was bored. Recently we were talking about him, farming, stuff like that, and I commented on how successful he had been. He told me that wasn't really true. When I asked him why, he said that he wished that he had gotten an education and that he had become a physicist. He said that he had been interested in physics all his life, and that he became a farmer because that is what his dad was, and that is all he knew how to be. But he wished that he had been a physicist. I never knew that.
 
I do believe that a college degree is needed to succeed in todays world but I don't agree with the idea that it's ok to have 100K in student debt when your done. If you ( or your parents ) don't have the money for a expensive school don't go there! Yes there are scholarships and grants available and a little bit of debt is reasonable but coming out of school with debt equaling 3 or 4 years of your total salary is just not reasonable.

*** Yes I understand that trade schools play a important part of the mix but the same rules apply to those as well, if you can't afford the cost don't go and get buried in debt.
 
Those who get a degree in my program can easily get a good job with great benefits if they have just a bit of lab experience, which we encourage them to get.
 
Statistics show consistently that a person with a college education will earn more and be unemployed less than a person without a college degree. There is a wide range of salaries for bachelor degree holders and comparing an non-degreed IT person with a degreed social worker is never a good comparison. But within fields it is pretty clear to that to have a better chance at the higher wages, job security and job opportunity a degree will be valuable. Another thing that people have to take into account is the return on investment for that degree. Taking out $100,000 in loans to get a social work degree is not a smart move. That person is not going to earn back that money quickly. They would be better off going to a community college for a while and then a cheaper school.

Then there are some jobs that you have to have a degree for. It is very tough to move into the science and engineering fields without the degree. The law and medicine will require not only undergraduate degrees but graduate level training. But if you want to greatly improve your chances of success in life then getting an education is a good investment.
 
It depends...

... on what career you want. I went to school for a few years and decided that I didn't want to do for a living what I was studying, so I quit school and worked. I worked for a few years at a job that many people make a career out of. After 2 years on the job, I had topped out salary-wise. The next step 'up' for me was to move from an operations position to a sales position - luckily, they actually asked me to move from operations into sales. There are lots of people that do the sales position without a degree, but I am the type of person that wants to go into a situation prepared, so I decided that if I was going to take a sales job, I would need to get a degree (in Agronomy for that job). After thinking about it, and discussing it with my wife, I decided that I didn't really want to keep going down the Agronomy Sales path for the rest of my life, but that I would need to get a degree to start any career path that I actually wanted to pursue. Back to school I went and by the time I was done, ended up with two degrees. My starting salary at my 'with degree' job was what I had topped out at with my previous job. I will soon be transitioning to another position that has much more upward mobility than any 'non-degree' job that *I* could have snagged.

... on what you do with your spare time. I know several people that are very successful in technology/computer fields that don't have any degree (2 or 4-year). They got into computers early and have worked their way up the ladder. In their spare time they tinkered with computers, which was basically on-the-job training. I don't know of a lot of fields where you can do that, though.

My general theory on college educations is that they are good if you are studying with a purpose. I don't agree with the "Just go get a degree in ANYTHING" mentality - that is throwing money away and in the end, can cause more hardship than it is worth. When my kid(s) get to college-age, my plan is to help them find a plan for what they want to do, or help them find a job so they can figure out what they want to do before sending them away to college.
 
Maxmosbey said:
This is just an interesting story I think. My father does not have a high school education. He became a farmer back in the forties and ended up owning a couple of farms and becoming a very successful farmer. He retired in the seventies and my brother-in-law took over the farming operations. As soon as my dad retired from farming, he got a job at Ames Lab, which is part of Iowa State University and worked there for quite a while. I could never figure out why he worked there, he didn't need the money. I just thought that he was bored. Recently we were talking about him, farming, stuff like that, and I commented on how successful he had been. He told me that wasn't really true. When I asked him why, he said that he wished that he had gotten an education and that he had become a physicist. He said that he had been interested in physics all his life, and that he became a farmer because that is what his dad was, and that is all he knew how to be. But he wished that he had been a physicist. I never knew that.
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I worked part and full-time for a farmer that told me several times that he wishes he could go back to school and get a degree in Mech. Eng. He got a degree in Agronomy from ISU, but only did that because someone needed to take over the farm. If he had it to do over again, he said he would do ME. I told him I would watch the farm if he wanted to go to school. ;) If I could make a sustainable living at farming, I would drop everything and go do it right now.
 
Using accepted sampling methods, ask those with degrees if they are glad they have them. Ask those who don't if they wish they did. Plan your education accordingly.
 
wabower said:
Using accepted sampling methods, ask those with degrees if they are glad they have them. Ask those who don't if they wish they did. Plan your education accordingly.
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When I didn't have a degree, I wish I did.

Now that I have a degree, I'm glad I do.

Done.:goofy:
 
Key factor is are you getting a degree that enhances your employment opportunities. An Associates Degreed new grad RN makes $25/hr in the Gulf Coast market. And theres demand for the job and skillset. Thats $47k/yr without any overtime or incentives.

Graduating with a liberal arts degree that is not relevant to your prospective career field is not likely to earn that much in an entry level role. Sure, you proved you can complete a 4 year degree, which sets you apart from non-degreed applicants, but what else you got?



I
 
Is it worth the cost? Depends, I suppose, on the cost. There are a whole lot of variables. I have two kids in college now, so I'm right in the middle of dealing with it. Saddling a kid, fresh out of school, with over $20K in loan debt is a real handicap. We are doing the best we can to avoid that.

My suggestions: Start college early, like in high school. That means the parents and the kids have to already have decided that college is part of the plan. If you can get the kids to buy into this early enough in high school, you really can get something good out of those HS years. Get into the AP programs, get college credits while in high school.

Do the research on which university you want to use. Then find a Junior College or Community College and find classes that have transfer credits. Take them at the local college for a fraction of the cost per credit hour that you would pay at the university level. Do this while in high school - that's one of the great things about AP classes and some other 'college credit while in high school' classes. Some high school counsellors are much better than others at advising about this, and some recommend that you don't take more than 23 credit hours in high-school prior to starting college. The reason for the 23 credit cap is that most colleges/universities consider 12 hrs per semester as a full time student, so 24 hrs would be considered a complete year. Starting school with 24 credit hrs means you'd start as a sophomore, and not be eligible for freshman scholarships.

SAT/ACT scores can really matter, too, for scholarships.

Stay on top of the counsellors, as early in high school as possible. If you keep the cost of college down, the payback is much better in the short run and gets you set up for the long run in even better shape.

Then - the grad just needs to find a job...
 
If I could find something to keep my interest I'd get one. I hated school. If I know how to do one problem, I know how to do them all. Just let me take the exams and forget the busy work. In HS, I knew I wasn't going to be going to a 4-year school anyway even if I got a full ride (finished HS at 16, and I was not to be trusted away from home at that age lol) so I banked on getting 95+ on my exams which I pretty much always did, and I did just enough homework to get me an A- for the class - which was around 50-55% of the work. Teacher's hated me for that when I would tell them why I didn't turn in homework 1/2 the time. From what I was told I had the highest ACT and SAT scores for my graduating class (which I took at age 15) but finished in the middle of the pack GPA wise. (There were a few mandatory classes I hated, and 1/4 assed it instead of 1/2 assed it.)

20 years post graduation, I still have no idea what I would get a bachelor's degree in. I got an AS, which isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
 
Depends on the school.
Depends on the degree.
Depends on the career.

I think a lot of kids who attend rinkydink D3 liberal arts schools are being fleeced. They're dropping $30-40k on a degree which, odds are, won't attract any notice in the big world.

There is great value in state schools. Maybe not so much the 2nd or 3rd tier state schools (eg Bloomsburg or Clarion in PA) unless you want to be a teacher, but in the big leagues, like Penn State, that's biggest bang for the buck.

Some who want to own their own trade-related business, like a plumber, would be well served by a 2yr associates degree. That, or just find a business manager to partner up with.

If you have your heart set on Wall St or white-shoe lawyering, then the big-name education is worth it. A UPenn BS in Econ from Wharton will pay-off (although it's likely you'll need to double down with a name MBA), a UPenn Womens Studies degree, eh, not so much, Ivy League or no Ivy League.

So, it depends. It's impossible for me to see any value whatsoever from a degree from a $60k/yr finishing school like Bennington.
 
EdFred said:
If I could find something to keep my interest I'd get one. I hated school. If I know how to do one problem, I know how to do them all. Just let me take the exams and forget the busy work. In HS, I knew I wasn't going to be going to a 4-year school anyway even if I got a full ride (finished HS at 16, and I was not to be trusted away from home at that age lol) so I banked on getting 95+ on my exams which I pretty much always did, and I did just enough homework to get me an A- for the class - which was around 50-55% of the work. Teacher's hated me for that when I would tell them why I didn't turn in homework 1/2 the time. From what I was told I had the highest ACT and SAT scores for my graduating class (which I took at age 15) but finished in the middle of the pack GPA wise. (There were a few mandatory classes I hated, and 1/4 assed it instead of 1/2 assed it.)

20 years post graduation, I still have no idea what I would get a bachelor's degree in. I got an AS, which isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
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Wow.. I'm going to start calling you...

doogie_howser_showcard.jpg
 
The point of the news (or fluff) segment was more concerning the cost of an education today, not the cost in years past. There is no doubt that a college or university degree is advantageous to a young persons career, but is that advantage worth the cost of todays education? Will the degree give that person enough extra money over their career that will be greater than the cost of the education itself.

Would it be better instead to take a business course at a local community college and use the money that would have been spent on higher education, to start a small business?

Do they even have trade schools anymore?

I should add that my formal education ended with the successful completion of the ninth grade. I did get a high school GED in the army.

As a business owner most of my life, I have done fairly well, but I have lamented my lack of education many times. I have to hire people to do the tasks I should know how to perform, such as accounting and bookkeeping.

What I have paid these people over the years would easily have paid for a good college education in such subjects, had I done it back in my day. I think the cost of it today would exceed what I have paid for the services, but I am not sure.

John
 
John Baker said:
Do they even have trade schools anymore?
John
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Interestingly enough, the Junior College that I went to for the first 2 years after high school started out as a trade school many moons ago. In the early 90's, they transitioned to a non-trade community college. This past school year, they have started transitioning back to being a trade school.

Apparently the welders, plumbers, carpenters, etc. that they trained in the 'early' days need more help to get the work done.
 
Too many kids go to college who don't need to. The education system obviously has a vested interest in playing up the "you need a college education to succeed in today's advanced society" but that is vastly overblown.
 
John Baker said:
Do they even have trade schools anymore?
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Matthew said:
Yeah - the Junior College near me has all kinds of programs.
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Not only Jr. Colleges but regualr trade schools still exist. Around us there are private trade schools as well as union run ones with full apprentice programs.

I know when I was doing my undergrad degree in electrical engineering that one of my classmates decided that he would rather be an electrician and transferred to a union apprentice and trade school program. He has his own business these days. He did eventually finish a 4 year degree in business.
 
wabower said:
Using accepted sampling methods, ask those with degrees if they are glad they have them. Ask those who don't if they wish they did. Plan your education accordingly.
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I have a BA in a field I never worked in. Am I glad i have it? Absolutely. Did it open some doors? Probably.

Growing up there was no question that I would go to college. Both my parents were college educated which was unusual back in those days (my mom is in her 90s). That said, I went to a state university which was inexpensive, even for those days.
 
Let's throw some fuel on this fire.

Link to article

"It's important that you go to college and get a (bachelor's degree), but it's almost three to four times more important what you take," said Anthony Carnevale, director of Georgetown's Center on Education and the Workforce. "The majors that are most popular are not the ones that make the most money."
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ScottM said:
Statistics show consistently that a person with a college education will earn more and be unemployed less than a person without a college degree.
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But is it a causal relationship?
 
I didn't have a choice...part of my parents' divorce settlement was Dad paid for my degree instead of paying alimony to Mom. Actually, it was until I turned 23 or until I got the degree, whichever came first.

Altho I had scholarships to expensive schools, I chose a state school (altho an incredibly high-quality state school) to keep everyone's expenses down. I was brought up to pay cash. House and car are the only items allowed to be financed in my family. If you don't have the cash, you probably don't need it.

The other degrees my employers paid for (their money, my own time). Most of the jobs I've had, the advanced degrees were mandatory either due to technical knowledge or status on the part of the company. When pitching DOD or DOT contracts, the educational achievement of the technical staff is always part of proposal.
 
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John Baker said:
The point of the news (or fluff) segment was more concerning the cost of an education today, not the cost in years past. There is no doubt that a college or university degree is advantageous to a young persons career, but is that advantage worth the cost of todays education? Will the degree give that person enough extra money over their career that will be greater than the cost of the education itself.

Would it be better instead to take a business course at a local community college and use the money that would have been spent on higher education, to start a small business?

Do they even have trade schools anymore?
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Yup. Check out the Emily Griffith Opportunity School in Denver. It even has an A&P program.

http://www.egos-school.com

Altho it "belongs" to Denver Public Schools (DPS handles the administration) the A&P program is a minor in the Aviation program (BA) at Metro State College of Denver (across the street). So you walk about with both the BA and the A&P. And even a CFII if you want.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Woohoo! :goofy:
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I get paid well as an engineer AND I get to break engines for a living. :rofl:




In an unemployed situation, who would you hire first, for an entry level position. A college graduate (any degree) or a high school graduate with 4 years of working in a non-related entry level position.

A college degree usually shows that the person is willing to work hard, continue to learn and innovate. They may also bring new ideas or new technology to the table, since they were exposed to a large variety of views at school.

A high school graduate has a much more difficult time showing that they have the same skills of innovation, continual learning, etc. Since they never did it in a formal setting. Not saying its impossible, but difficult.


So I guess what my opinion is..... while I don't think 4 years of undergrad, plus 2 years of graduate is needed for every job. It couldn't hurt, the experience / knowledge will help somewhere in your life. 2 year Tech degrees are great as well. Trade programs....... ANY continued learning. Think of how great the world would be if everyone understood calculus, fluid dynamics, physics........ but that's the nerd in me. :D

High school should be considered nothing more than prep for future learning.
 
TripleZ said:
I get paid well as an engineer AND I get to break engines for a living. :rofl:
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Ted's got you beat - He gets paid well as an engineer and gets to break AIRPLANE engines for a living! :goofy:

In an unemployed situation, who would you hire first, for an entry level position. A college graduate (any degree) or a high school graduate with 4 years of working in a non-related entry level position.
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And that's just it - While in many cases the high school graduate can do as good of a job as the college graduate, just being the guy to get the job in the first place is a lot harder.

Think of how great the world would be if everyone understood calculus, fluid dynamics, physics........ but that's the nerd in me. :D
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Well, it'd certainly make it easier for everyone to be pilots, too! :D
 
John Baker said:
Do they even have trade schools anymore?
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You betcha! They are still a good option too.

I attended Airframe classes in highschool at no cost then paid for the third year power plant add on. I have about 5K tied up in my education and from a return-on-investment standpoint I think I'm well ahead of the curve.

My Fiance is currently at the same trade school taking an OPOTA certified police academy and come July her prospects of having a 30-40k/yr job look good. Cost of the academy? Two payments of $2,250.

Will we ever be rich doing what I'm doing and she's planning on doing? Nope, but we will make a good living doing what we WANT to do.
 
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