Is a university education worth the cost?

[Maxmosbey]

So even though I am pro education, the point of the OP was if an education was worth the cost. It appears to me that education has become big business. I live in Ames, home of Iowa State University. My wife, my daughter, and I are graduates of ISU. They are growing at an incredible rate. They went right on building through the recession and never even slowed down. Sometimes it seems like ISU football and basketball are the two most important endeavors at ISU, and they can't win a game. They send me more letters asking for money than the AOPA and the NRA combined. In the mean time, they just keep cranking up the cost of tuition and housing to the point where the students are struggling to pay for it. I don't think that a kid could work his or her way through college anymore.

The college that my son went to is just insanely expensive. At the same time, I just have to wonder how many kids are actually paying the full amount. My son got an academic scholarship. That means he didn't pay any tuition. None. I'm happy about that, but who is footing the bill then? He lived the last two years in a house with five other guys. Every one of those kids was getting some sort of scholarship that paid for all or part of the tuition, be it academics or sports. Who is footing the rest of it? In the whole four years that he went to college there, I never met a kid who wasn't getting some sort of assistance.

When I went to college, I went on the GI bill. I didn't pay a cent for a four year degree. When my wife went to grad school she taught a couple of classes which paid her a stipend and half her tuition. My daughter got through college on a work study program through the university. In other words, none of us paid the full amount.

So I guess I'm wondering what the true cost of an education is? A lot of kids borrow a lot of money for college, but a lot of that money does not go toward their education.

 

[Maxmosbey]

Given the combination of the quality of today's HS education, the entry-level opportunities available to most HS graduates and their overall level of maturity and understanding of the real world, it's hard to argue that a few more years of formal training is a bad thing. Where will most of them find themselves in three years if they enter the job market fresh out of HS? Promoted to Fry Cook II?

I agree with you Wayne. I'm saying however that if a kid goes out there and wastes four years going to college and doesn't learn anything, they might just end up one of those fry cooks with a college education that all those non college educated people like to use as an example of why they don't value getting one themselves.

 

[Doggtyred]

Man. All I can say is I'm fortunate.

I lived at home and went locally to one of the many universities in my major city. I also did additional stuff at a community college and was a paramedic by age 19.

I worked full time and took a minimal full time load until I dropped out as a junior and worked for a while.

Bought a home, some toys and went back to finish a degree in nursing. While working full time and paying a mortgage.

Own two associates and a bachelors and never took a nickel in loan money ( other than putting a tuition payment on plastic from time to time).

Starting the masters this fall and still will not be doing the loan route.

Do I miss not having gone away to school? Yeah. I do. But having parents who covered room board and insurance while I covered tuition and books was a sweet, economical deal those first few years.

 

[Maxmosbey]

Man. All I can say is I'm fortunate.

I lived at home and went locally to one of the many universities in my major city. I also did additional stuff at a community college and was a paramedic by age 19.

I worked full time and took a minimal full time load until I dropped out as a junior and worked for a while.

Bought a home, some toys and went back to finish a degree in nursing. While working full time and paying a mortgage.

Own two associates and a bachelors and never took a nickel in loan money ( other than putting a tuition payment on plastic from time to time).

Starting the masters this fall and still will not be doing the loan route.

Do I miss not having gone away to school? Yeah. I do. But having parents who covered room board and insurance while I covered tuition and books was a sweet, economical deal those first few years.

I think that you are one of those guys who will take advantage of your education and that it will pay you back with dividends.

 

[ClimbnSink]

SO the well rounded critical thinkers can't wrap their head the idea that the way they became well rounded critical thinkers isn't the only way. I found this thread already summed up in video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EffEaMXQAbc

 

[Bob Noel]

It takes a special kind of person to find greater reward in brute manual labor than the process of scientific discovery. I realized I wanted to be a scientist after I got my first experimental result.

mmmm, I love woodworking. I love completing a project. The accomplishment, etc,

Unfortunately, I'm not all that good at woodworking. :-(

 

[zaitcev]

1) Critical Thinking
2) Reading
3) Multiple Languages (at least 2 fluently)
4) Mathematics (at least Trigonometry)
5) History (those whom fail to learn, etc.)
6) Art (music, painting, theater)

I'm trilingual (Russian - native, English, Japanese) and I think it must be the most useless skill I possess now that I have actually immigrated into America. English foreva, the rest is for specialist translators. As for the art, my mom was making these noises when she forced me to play piano and later go through 4 years of art school. I'd be better off if I spent the time in the gym.

 

[weilke]

I just spent 2 hrs in a graduation ceremony for a 5th grader .

Everyone gets a price, everyone gets a certificate, for some reason everyone was above 100% of their 'advanced reading goals' and the 'gold patch' only means that you attended PE class (if you didn't attend PE class for health reasons you get a gold-patch as well). There was some talk about honors and science prizes but nobody ever mentioned a GPA.

We are doomed.

 

[tonycondon]

I just spent 2 hrs in a graduation ceremony for a 5th grader .

Everyone gets a price, everyone gets a certificate, for some reason everyone was above 100% of their 'advanced reading goals' and the 'gold patch' only means that you attended PE class (if you didn't attend PE class for health reasons you get a gold-patch as well). There was some talk about honors and science prizes but nobody ever mentioned a GPA.

We are doomed.

Lake Wobegon middle school?

 

[steingar]

I for one am glad that high ability students have access to merit based scholarships. When I was a student the only scholarships available were for sports. I have found that high ability students make far more of the opportunity than athletes.

 

[dell30rb]

It takes a special kind of person to find greater reward in brute manual labor than the process of scientific discovery. I realized I wanted to be a scientist after I got my first experimental result.

I mostly just enjoyed being outside. Before I was doing research in the basement of a large company.

I got a busted 48" snapper pro mower for $300 and fixed it. Enjoyed tinkering with that thing too.

This is why i'm fooling with the idea of getting my commercial and flying professionally. College was dull for me but I worked with great enthusiasm when taking flying lessons. I like being outdoors (flying is kinda outdoors) flying is of course fun, and airplanes are cool. I think you guys can relate to that.

 

[weilke]

I mostly just enjoyed being outside. Before I was doing research in the basement of a large company.

I bought a busted 48" snapper pro mower for $300 and fixed it. Enjoyed tinkering with that thing too.

This is why i'm fooling with the idea of getting my commercial and flying professionally. College was dull for me but I worked with great enthusiasm when taking flying lessons. I like being outdoors (flying is kinda outdoors) flying is of course fun, and airplanes are cool. I think you guys can relate to that.

Combine lawn-mowing and flying: Ag-flying

 

[dmccormack]

I just spent 2 hrs in a graduation ceremony for a 5th grader .

Everyone gets a price, everyone gets a certificate, for some reason everyone was above 100% of their 'advanced reading goals' and the 'gold patch' only means that you attended PE class (if you didn't attend PE class for health reasons you get a gold-patch as well). There was some talk about honors and science prizes but nobody ever mentioned a GPA.

We are doomed.

Nope -- it just means kids who are raised to work hard, think critically, harness talent and networks, and continuously learn will have less competition.

 

[ClimbnSink]

They may be dumber but college athletes go on to have higher salaries(bigger donation possibilities.) Colleges win, many ways, with college sports.

I for one am glad that high ability students have access to merit based scholarships. When I was a student the only scholarships available were for sports. I have found that high ability students make far more of the opportunity than athletes.

 

[flyersfan31]

I have 2 Ivy League degrees, plus a bonus degree from Johns Hopkins.

So what?

So I think that college is for some folks, and not for others. Some can attend Harvard and end up detailing cars for a living. Some can attend Montgomery County Community College and own a series of gas stations, a big fishing boat, and buy big boobs for his wife. Others can attend Harvard and cure a disease. Others can attend MCCC and do time at the county lock-up on small-time drug dealing charges.

My point? It ain't the education, it's the person. It's as silly to poo-poo someone who earns a college education as it is to write off someone who hasn't.

A college education, or lack thereof, will only take you so far. If you don't have the desire to take advantage of it, then college is a screaming waste, particularly some DIII liberal arts school that charges $40k/yr. IMHO.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I have 2 Ivy League degrees, plus a bonus degree from Johns Hopkins.

So what?

So I think that college is for some folks, and not for others. Some can attend Harvard and end up detailing cars for a living. Some can attend Montgomery County Community College and own a series of gas stations, a big fishing boat, and buy big boobs for his wife. Others can attend Harvard and cure a disease. Others can attend MCCC and do time at the county lock-up on small-time drug dealing charges.

My point? It ain't the education, it's the person. It's as silly to poo-poo someone who earns a college education as it is to write off someone who hasn't.

A college education, or lack thereof, will only take you so far. If you don't have the desire to take advantage of it, then college is a screaming waste, particularly some DIII liberal arts school that charges $40k/yr. IMHO.

Those are the guys the 'well rounded' spiel was invented to promote.

 

[denverpilot]

Sounds like that wasn't a very good course. That happens. At least you formed an educated and articulate opinion on why you disliked it. That - forming an educated and well-articulated opinion - is something that many are lacking.

"That happens" bothers me... I paid for a course, I should have gotten a lot more for my dollar than that. The fact that it was required was just insult added to injury. If it weren't, I'd have dropped in the two-week money-back drop period. The Professor being tenured and "un-touchable" who was teaching the course, takes this from awful to ludicrous and shows where the education system is broken. Tenure itself is a busted idea, but try to bring up a "civil debate" about tenure at any large school and see how far that goes in a classroom.

I had no marketable skills when I got out of HS plus I suspect I had been fairly sheltered from life in general.

I could see where spending some time in the "real world" at a live-on-campus University could help someone in your situation. I'd had a lot of "real life" including jobs at age 14 and older in the summer, prior to attending college. Was already getting up to speed on getting along with people and learning that some people are just crazy... years before attending college courses.

What we need to remember is critical thinking is learned. My biggest problem is dealing with idiots that lack the ability to organize their thoughts. More importantly, they don't learn how to form questions. I can't imagine how much more we could accomplish, even with factory workers, if people knew how to ask a proper question.

Most important things to learn:

1) Critical Thinking
2) Reading
3) Multiple Languages (at least 2 fluently)
4) Mathematics (at least Trigonometry)
5) History (those whom fail to learn, etc.)
6) Art (music, painting, theater)

I could go on, but the important thing is to impart the ability to learn.

Well said, Jesse!!

I've encountered many, many "really smart" people who never developed the discipline or skills required to harness that innate ability.

We're all inherently lazy to some extent. It's hard to find folks who'll push you to your maximum potential, and even harder to find folks who'll keep you balanced and make you have some fun too, while you're doing it.

There is a gal serving bar at the local beer theatre with a degree from my school. Makes me sad. One of the curators at the Creation Museum got a degree from my program. Makes me sad.

Don't cry for me, Argentina. Seriously though... one thing you see about society in general right now is that people have weird goals/aspirations. If the person tending bar has plans to do something else with her life, that's one thing. If she's happy tending bar, that just might be... even better.

Well said. It boils down to whether or not the education will help make you a happy person.

...

Could I have found a career that I would have been happy with without a college education? I don't think so.

I think there are definitely specialities that you just won't find outside of really hard academics. "Steely Eyed Missile Man" is probably one of them.

This offer of $100,000 from the PayPal co-founder to anyone who decides NOT to go to college, is interesting, as is his premise. This just popped up in my news feeds today, and seems timely considering this conversation!

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...-fellowships-to-not-go-to-college?sc=fb&cc=fp

24 people under 20 get $100,000 not to attend school. Interesting. When businesspeople plunk down cash like that, they're usually looking for a way to get something they need. He appears to think that he can get better innovators if they have NOT been indoctrinated at a college. Fascinating.

 

[Everskyward]

I could see where spending some time in the "real world" at a live-on-campus University could help someone in your situation. I'd had a lot of "real life" including jobs at age 14 and older in the summer, prior to attending college. Was already getting up to speed on getting along with people and learning that some people are just crazy... years before attending college courses.

Actually my one "real" job had been working night shift filing checks in a bank where I learned immediately how people tried to beat the system. People also drank on the job and had no problem passing it out to underage co-workers (underage was under 18 at that time). So much for good examples in the job world.

 

[denverpilot]

I just spent 2 hrs in a graduation ceremony for a 5th grader .

Everyone gets a price, everyone gets a certificate, for some reason everyone was above 100% of their 'advanced reading goals' and the 'gold patch' only means that you attended PE class (if you didn't attend PE class for health reasons you get a gold-patch as well). There was some talk about honors and science prizes but nobody ever mentioned a GPA.

We are doomed.

One of my friends just volunteered to chaperone "Field Day"... every kid got a medal.

We're truly delusional, aren't we?

 

[Maxmosbey]

I for one am glad that high ability students have access to merit based scholarships. When I was a student the only scholarships available were for sports. I have found that high ability students make far more of the opportunity than athletes.

My son went into their honors program. That is where the scholarship came from. Just like a sports scholarship, except it was an academics program. He had to maintain a 3.5 GPA or higher throughout. He ended up with a degree in economics, with an art and a German minor. He was also able to spend a semester going to school in Norway as part of the program that he was in.

 

[wabower]

From a personal standpoint, I've been presented with numerous (unplanned) opportunities that wouldn't have been available without a degree. The first was a direct commission in the military reserve program in which I was serving as an NCO. I didn't accept, since I didn't want the long-term commitment that was part of the deal, but for someone else it would have been a nice advancement.

Over the years, many other situations have been materialized, all of which required a college degree. I didn't get the jobs because I had a degree, but wouldn't have been in the running without one. Nobody ever asked for a transcript or a detailed list of the coursework, the degree was just one of their squares to fill during the hiring process.

The high level of career-path unpredictability, especially in our current economic environment, leads me to encourage young people to obtain their education earlier rather than later, simply because I know how well it worked out for me.

That's not to say you can't end up in the chairman/CEO job wihout a degree, but most of those that do were the founders of the company. Getting hired into such a job without a degree isn't impossible either, but it's a long-odds bet. BTDT