Is a university education worth the cost?

If both are equally qualified for the job I'd probably hire the guy w/o a degree. The guy with a degree probably thinks he's more valuable than he actually is, and will probably have an inflated sense of self worth and I'll have to can him in 3 months because I can't stand his arrogant ass anyway. :D
 
TripleZ said:
In an unemployed situation, who would you hire first, for an entry level position. A college graduate (any degree) or a high school graduate with 4 years of working in a non-related entry level position.
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Well, devil's advocate here (one with 2 Ivy degrees plus one from Johns Hopkins, so I definitely have a propeller spinning on top of my beany), I might argue that the HS graduate, who has actually been out in the workforce, might be the better bet, ceteris paribus.

Your hypothetical college grad probably doesn't know how to comport him/herself in the professional workforce. Assuming entry level means "easy for anyone to figure out" then I want the cake that's baked more. The HS grad with 4 yrs of working experience, I might assume, would be better able to hit the ground running in a work environment.
 
Skylane81E said:
Will we ever be rich doing what I'm doing and she's planning on doing? Nope, but we will make a good living doing what we WANT to do.
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I think that's a good part of the answer. There are all kinds of jobs and all kinds of people, but as either an employer or an employee you want to come as close to a match as possible. You should follow your own path not someone else's, even if they have been successful because you are not them.
 
TripleZ said:
A college degree usually shows that the person is willing to work hard, continue to learn and innovate. They may also bring new ideas or new technology to the table, since they were exposed to a large variety of views at school.

A high school graduate has a much more difficult time showing that they have the same skills of innovation, continual learning, etc. Since they never did it in a formal setting. Not saying its impossible, but difficult.
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Interesting.

I found most of the Computer Science degree chasers when I took a few night classes, to be very much "cut from the same cloth" and quite boorish in their thinking about how to fix software problems.

They wanted the Professor to tell them how to think, not just learn how to code. Which led to predictable results and grades. Profs knew.

Nice people. Just utterly blown away when you shared that things break in the real world of computers and knowing that customers want business continuity above all else, even friendly customer service, seemed to always shock them.

There were three or four "innovators" in a class of 35 or so, and three troubleshooters who could debug other's code. This seems consistent with numbers I've seen in larger companies. Smaller companies seem to attract more of the true innovators.

Tying real accomplishments in business to your resume' other than "warmed a chair with my butt for six years" is hard whether you're a degree-holder or not.

Definitely worth learning enough about business to make a significant top or bottom line impact, know you do, and document it on the resume'.
 
denverpilot said:
Interesting.

I found most of the Computer Science degree chasers when I took a few night classes, to be very much "cut from the same cloth" and quite boorish in their thinking about how to fix software problems.
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I resent that! Or resemble it, I'm not sure which...
They wanted the Professor to tell them how to think, not just learn how to code. Which led to predictable results and grades. Profs knew.

There were three or four "innovators" in a class of 35 or so, and three troubleshooters who could debug other's code. This seems consistent with numbers I've seen in larger companies. Smaller companies seem to attract more of the true innovators.
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Yup - that's about the right number in the classes I taught. In fact, I hired two of my students when I was at a Major Aerospace Company.
 
denverpilot said:
There were three or four "innovators" in a class of 35 or so, and three troubleshooters who could debug other's code. This seems consistent with numbers I've seen in larger companies.
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Same thing in Nursing. We have a crapload of trained monkeys and a handful of those who really have the gift.....
 
Doggtyred said:
Same thing in Nursing. We have a crapload of trained monkeys and a handful of those who really have the gift.....
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That's my wife's "biz". I'd share stories but now that she's trying on "Management" for size, I probably can't.

The stuff they've had to fire nurses for is truly frightening. Stuff that could kill people that the nurses were utterly oblivious to.

And the stuff she has to memorize for Medicare billing makes the FAR and AIM look like children's bedtime storybooks.

No thanks. You people are Saints.
 
denverpilot said:
That's my wife's "biz". I'd share stories but now that she's trying on "Management" for size, I probably can't.

The stuff they've had to fire nurses for is truly frightening. Stuff that could kill people that the nurses were utterly oblivious to.

And the stuff she has to memorize for Medicare billing makes the FAR and AIM look like children's bedtime storybooks.

No thanks. You people are Saints.
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My dad's line of work, loved the nursing but the realities of the job led him to run screaming at the first opertunity:hairraise:
 
The lifetime earning studies just show that a college degree was more important 40 years ago. We'll have to guess and wait 40 years to find the current answer.
 
denverpilot said:
The stuff they've had to fire nurses for is truly frightening. Stuff that could kill people that the nurses were utterly oblivious to.
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The scary part is that the ones who most need firing don't get fired until they do kill someone.

My best friend's Mom was in a local hospital recently for suspected pneumonia. Before the diagnosis was confirmed, she was on IV antibiotics and wound up with C-diff. Due to hospital bureaucracy, it took several days after the diagnosis to get her started on vancomycin, and at one point my friend caught the nurses preparing to give her Imodium for the diarrhea. Several of them were in on this plan including the floor supervisor, who even defended the decision saying that her butt was getting too irritated. An entire shift of nurses who had NO idea that this is a very bad idea for someone with C-diff. My friend now stays in her room 24 hours a day when she's in the hospital -- to protect her from incompetent hospital staff.
 
Yes, it is necessary. And no, it doesn't depend on your profession.

College isn't for learning specific job skills - that's what community colleges and trade schools are for. A university education is for making a better-rounded and generally informed person. I'm sure many who haven't bothered with an education from a good school think they're no worse off - if they only knew how much they're missing.

This country would be in much better shape if people would just learn a little about science, the principles of civic discourse, and economics 101.
 
sba55 said:
A university education is for making a better-rounded and generally informed person. I'm sure many who haven't bothered with an education from a good school think they're no worse off - if they only knew how much they're missing.

This country would be in much better shape if people would just learn a little about science, the principles of civic discourse, and economics 101.
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Loved my Econ courses, but mostly they just taught me that Econ isn't science and no one has it figured out. Also taught me that the University I chose was completely and utterly in love with Keynes and gave no other Economic theories the time of day.

Science courses were just "applied math", and by "applied" I mean, in a structured way (scientific method). Anyone could learn to do that on their own, if motivated.

"Principals of civic discourse" wasn't a required course that I ever saw on any of the courses I would have had to take to finish my degree back in the day.

However, "Multicultural Studies" taught by a flaming liberal (and by "flaming" I mean even the liberal students in the course were completely uncomfortable most of the time) was required.

The entire course could have been summed up with two sentences, "Not everyone in the world agrees with you. Learn to get along." It was a waste of money and time for anyone brought up in a family that already held that value, and turned into a "Let's sit in a room and watch the intolerant and overly-tolerant students argue for an hour three times a week" session. The Professor (fully-tenured of course) just let it be an all-out brawl unless it was "speech night" in which students re-iterated their positions we'd all already heard from them in the open discussion sessions.

To make that course effective, the Prof would have had to have forced students to argue the opposite opinion than they actually held. No way was that squishy Prof going to require that.

Since I was paying cash for school and working three jobs to do it, mostly that class just ****ed me off in general since I was paying to watch a disorganized Prof who had no chance of a complaint even touching them, sit there and milk us all for $500-$1000.
 
sba55 said:
Yes, it is necessary. And no, it doesn't depend on your profession.

College isn't for learning specific job skills - that's what community colleges and trade schools are for. A university education is for making a better-rounded and generally informed person. I'm sure many who haven't bothered with an education from a good school think they're no worse off - if they only knew how much they're missing.

This country would be in much better shape if people would just learn a little about science, the principles of civic discourse, and economics 101.
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I'll be sure to let the thousands of millionaire business owners without degrees know that. :rolleyes:
 
sba55 said:
College isn't for learning specific job skills - that's what community colleges and trade schools are for. A university education is for making a better-rounded and generally informed person.
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That misconception, combined with the degree inflation, is the reason a college degree on average has so little career/lifetime-earnings value these days.
 
College won't teach much in the way of job skills but I agree it can make a more well-rounded and person. However, for some it can be detrimental and the debt is horrible. When I was in school I noticed many professors are quacks and some students can fail to recognize that they are listening to someone with an agenda.

Taking all this into account, I don't think college is worth the money. Its over-hyped and stupid expensive.

The best thing I got out of college was not an education, but the friends I made.
 
Blah. I went to one of our finest schools and I disagree. The whole 'well rounded' bit is just an over used ad blurb from college pamphlets. Repeated by guidance counselors, beer salesmen and everyone else who has a $ stake in sleep away high school.
sba55 said:
Yes, it is necessary. And no, it doesn't depend on your profession.

College isn't for learning specific job skills - that's what community colleges and trade schools are for. A university education is for making a better-rounded and generally informed person. I'm sure many who haven't bothered with an education from a good school think they're no worse off - if they only knew how much they're missing.

This country would be in much better shape if people would just learn a little about science, the principles of civic discourse, and economics 101.
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It most assuradly depends on what you want to do, I'd be making not one penny more with a degree.
 
I attended a small liberal arts private college in Western NY.

When I said I wasn't sure what my major should be, but always had an interest in History and did well on the SAT in the verbal portion (800).

Professor Lindley told me, "A degree in History will teach you to write, speak, and reason. With that, you can do anything."

She was right.
 
Seems you were smart before you arrived(800.) Perhaps the college was simply taking credit for what you already were and knew or what you would have learned anyway maturing over 4 years.:idea:
dmccormack said:
I attended a small liberal arts private college in Western NY.

When I said I wasn't sure what my major should be, but always had an interest in History and did well on the SAT in the verbal portion (800).

Professor Lindley told me, "A degree in History will teach you to write, speak, and reason. With that, you can do anything."

She was right.
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Can you guarantee that you'll always want (or be able) to do what you're doing now?

Skylane81E said:
It most assuradly depends on what you want to do, I'd be making not one penny more with a degree.
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I'm really not happy with the money I (and my mother) spent in 4 years at university. I'm disappointed in our education system as a whole - primary, secondary and college. Anyone can get through it. It needs to be tougher and a C needs to be average with some people actually failing too.

In my particular situation, I was very prepared for college and quite bored throughout it all. I ended up getting my private, instrument, and most of my commercial while finishing up my degree in my spare time.

Anthropology is far-reaching but I decided that grad school was not something I agreed with (most of my life has been in school) and that's what the administrators push for. "Hey, we can make even more money on this guy if we convince him that he can't do anything without grad school or a degree." We should be able to test out of college so you can get that important piece of paper employers want to see.

Can you write a somewhat thought-out paper (good intro, filler/facts, good conclusion and sources) on something your "boss" tells you to write about? Congratulations, you don't need college. The friends and parties were great, however.

I did learn that I hated organic chemistry because I didn't understand ethnic English from my Indian professor. Nothing against him, but that's a class that you need to get the basics in and then build upon those. If you can't understand the basics because of a language barrier, you're pretty much screwed. I still graduated a fraction away from so-called "honors" with a 0.0 on my record.

Engineering, nursing, and teaching are the majors that make the most sense to me. The others are a paper to get you past the first round of HR as a way to weed out prospective applicants.

We need more apprenticeship programs. Work doing what you like while learning from someone that knows what to do, not an administrator working for tenure or forced into teaching to get more grant money.

If I didn't go to college, I could be 5 years into an industry that I'm now only 1 year into.

Business and life is all about who you know. With or without a college degree.
 
denverpilot said:
Loved my Econ courses, but mostly they just taught me that Econ isn't science and no one has it figured out. Also taught me that the University I chose was completely and utterly in love with Keynes and gave no other Economic theories the time of day.
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Yes, there are shortcomings. But I'm sure you still learned quite a few basics in those courses so that you can make sense of what's going on more so than those who haven't taken those courses.

denverpilot said:
Science courses were just "applied math", and by "applied" I mean, in a structured way (scientific method). Anyone could learn to do that on their own, if motivated.
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No doubt; in fact, I think anyone could learn most of this on their own if properly motivated. Most aren't, though, and of course you can't duplicate the experience of learning from real - often very interesting - people.

denverpilot said:
"Principals of civic discourse" wasn't a required course that I ever saw on any of the courses I would have had to take to finish my degree back in the day.
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I didn't take such a course, either. My point is more along the lines of teaching those principles simply by virtue of being in an environment that promotes educated debate.

denverpilot said:
However, "Multicultural Studies" taught by a flaming liberal (and by "flaming" I mean even the liberal students in the course were completely uncomfortable most of the time) was required.

The entire course could have been summed up with two sentences, "Not everyone in the world agrees with you. Learn to get along." It was a waste of money and time for anyone brought up in a family that already held that value, and turned into a "Let's sit in a room and watch the intolerant and overly-tolerant students argue for an hour three times a week" session. The Professor (fully-tenured of course) just let it be an all-out brawl unless it was "speech night" in which students re-iterated their positions we'd all already heard from them in the open discussion sessions.

To make that course effective, the Prof would have had to have forced students to argue the opposite opinion than they actually held. No way was that squishy Prof going to require that.

Since I was paying cash for school and working three jobs to do it, mostly that class just ****ed me off in general since I was paying to watch a disorganized Prof who had no chance of a complaint even touching them, sit there and milk us all for $500-$1000.
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Sounds like that wasn't a very good course. That happens. At least you formed an educated and articulate opinion on why you disliked it. That - forming an educated and well-articulated opinion - is something that many are lacking.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Blah. I went to one of our finest schools and I disagree. The whole 'well rounded' bit is just an over used ad blurb from college pamphlets. Repeated by guidance counselors, beer salesmen and everyone else who has a $ stake in sleep away high school.
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I disagree. I think the well-rounded part was the most valuable part of my education. That plus the fact that I was exposed to so many different things, including aviation. Sure I could have learned something else during the 4 years I spent in college, such as how to say, "Would you like fries with that?". I had no marketable skills when I got out of HS plus I suspect I had been fairly sheltered from life in general.
 
sba55 said:
Yes, it is necessary. And no, it doesn't depend on your profession.

College isn't for learning specific job skills - that's what community colleges and trade schools are for. A university education is for making a better-rounded and generally informed person. I'm sure many who haven't bothered with an education from a good school think they're no worse off - if they only knew how much they're missing.

This country would be in much better shape if people would just learn a little about science, the principles of civic discourse, and economics 101.
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What we need to remember is critical thinking is learned. My biggest problem is dealing with idiots that lack the ability to organize their thoughts. More importantly, they don't learn how to form questions. I can't imagine how much more we could accomplish, even with factory workers, if people knew how to ask a proper question.

Most important things to learn:

1) Critical Thinking
2) Reading
3) Multiple Languages (at least 2 fluently)
4) Mathematics (at least Trigonometry)
5) History (those whom fail to learn, etc.)
6) Art (music, painting, theater)

I could go on, but the important thing is to impart the ability to learn.
 
I think it depends entirely on the person. Some may benefit greatly from a degree, and for some it's a waste of time and money. Some may earn more money as a result of having a degree, some may suffer for years from the debt. Some may gain much from simply the experience of the college life, some may begin an unsavory lifestyle living the college life that hinders future progress. Some students go on to do great things after college, some go on to wreck their families and relationships as a result of some bull crap some quack professor taught them. Everybody's different.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Seems you were smart before you arrived(800.) Perhaps the college was simply taking credit for what you already were and knew or what you would have learned anyway maturing over 4 years.:idea:
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The actual quote (From Calvin Coolidge):
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"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrequited genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."
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I've encountered many, many "really smart" people who never developed the discipline or skills required to harness that innate ability.
 
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I think that a degree is nor guarantee to get a good, well paid job. It however enormously increases the chances to get one.
Of course, the situation is always varying, very much depending on the economy, but if a company gets a bunch of applications, the guy with a degree always has an advantage over his competitors without one.
An degree is also a proof of your knowledge, will and dedication.

Nowadays there are also all kinds of on-line programs available, which are specifically designed for persons who work full time. I think, that this another great option to get a degree, without quitting work and going into debt.

Cheers, Oliver
 
dmccormack said:
"Unrequited genius are legion..."

I've encountered many, many "really smart" people who never developed the discipline or skills required to harness that innate ability.
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So have I. We in academic circles have a name for such persons. We call them B students. They make me sad.

There is a gal serving bar at the local beer theatre with a degree from my school. Makes me sad. One of the curators at the Creation Museum got a degree from my program. Makes me sad.

However, many of my students are now excellent physicians, serving their communities. I've helped many realize the value of genetic counseling, giving them careers rewarding both in physical and spiritual terms. Many, if not most have improved their lot through their experience at my school.

Anyone who thinks rigor has gone out of University education has not been in my classroom.
 
OkieFlyer said:
I think it depends entirely on the person. Some may benefit greatly from a degree, and for some it's a waste of time and money. Some may earn more money as a result of having a degree, some may suffer for years from the debt. Some may gain much from simply the experience of the college life, some may begin an unsavory lifestyle living the college life that hinders future progress. Some students go on to do great things after college, some go on to wreck their families and relationships as a result of some bull crap some quack professor taught them. Everybody's different.
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I think you are right. With anything you do, you get out of it what you put into it. If you take classes and just go through the motions, you aren't going to learn anything. If you go into it thinking you already know everything, you are not going to learn anything. If you take the classes, pay attention, and try to gain knowledge, you will come out ahead. Yes, a lot of people waste a lot of time and money getting an education. That is not the fault of the education.
 
steingar said:
There is a gal serving bar at the local beer theatre with a degree from my school. Makes me sad.
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Some of those bartenders really rake in the dough. I see where you're coming from.. she's not applying her knowledge... but actually she may be making a smart decision. More money... less stress...

I quit my $17 an hour laboratory job as an intern one summer because I could almost make more money mowing lawns at $10 an hour (cash). Taxes, stress and the cost of fuel / time to drive 40mi each day made that 'real' job suck. I actually found mowing lawns to be less boring and more satisfying.

jus playing devil's advocate
 
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Given the combination of the quality of today's HS education, the entry-level opportunities available to most HS graduates and their overall level of maturity and understanding of the real world, it's hard to argue that a few more years of formal training is a bad thing. Where will most of them find themselves in three years if they enter the job market fresh out of HS? Promoted to Fry Cook II?



Maxmosbey said:
I think you are right. With anything you do, you get out of it what you put into it. If you take classes and just go through the motions, you aren't going to learn anything. If you go into it thinking you already know everything, you are not going to learn anything. If you take the classes, pay attention, and try to gain knowledge, you will come out ahead. Yes, a lot of people waste a lot of time and money getting an education. That is not the fault of the education.
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dell30rb said:
Some of those bartenders really rake in the dough. I see where you're coming from.. she's not applying her knowledge... but actually she may be making a smart decision. More money... less stress...

I quit my $17 an hour laboratory job as an intern one summer because I could almost make more money mowing lawns at $10 an hour (cash). Taxes, stress and the cost of fuel / time to drive 40mi each day made that 'real' job suck. I actually found mowing lawns to be less boring and more satisfying.

jus playing devil's advocate
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It takes a special kind of person to find greater reward in brute manual labor than the process of scientific discovery. I realized I wanted to be a scientist after I got my first experimental result.
 
steingar said:
It takes a special kind of person to find greater reward in brute manual labor than the process of scientific discovery. I realized I wanted to be a scientist after I got my first experimental result.
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And that's the beauty of humanity. There are millions of people that look at your job and say, "ugh, how can he just sit and read and write and do experiments inside all day?"
 
dell30rb said:
Some of those bartenders really rake in the dough. I see where you're coming from.. she's not applying her knowledge... but actually she may be making a smart decision. More money... less stress...

I quit my $17 an hour laboratory job as an intern one summer because I could almost make more money mowing lawns at $10 an hour (cash). Taxes, stress and the cost of fuel / time to drive 40mi each day made that 'real' job suck. I actually found mowing lawns to be less boring and more satisfying.

jus playing devil's advocate
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Well said. It boils down to whether or not the education will help make you a happy person.

For me, the education was essential. I am an Aerospace systems engineer by trade, a physicist by education. I do math on a regular basis. I began learning calculus in high school, but was definitely not prepared to do engineering for space systems.

Could I have found a career that I would have been happy with without a college education? I don't think so.
 
steingar said:
It takes a special kind of person to find greater reward in brute manual labor than the process of scientific discovery. I realized I wanted to be a scientist after I got my first experimental result.
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I don't think it takes someone "special", just different. Some people wouldn't want to be cooped up in a lab all day doing research and looking through books. There are many people who prefer a less academic and more hands-on job. I would not want to sit there all day and pore through computer code, but there are plenty of people who do that, right here. Many people would not want a hurry up and wait job like I have but it's OK for me. Granted, if I didn't need to work I wouldn't do it. There are many people for whom their job is not the centerpiece of their life. In fact, I would say that would be the situation for most people.
 
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