Is a GTN650+G5 a TAA?

[AA5Bman]

Does anyone know the actual definition of a Technically Advanced Aircraft? I am searching around online and find two different definitions, one that says all you need is a moving map display, an IFR GPS, and an autopilot. The other definition I can find goes into more detail and says something like “a PFD that incorporates all flight instruments, a moving map display, and an integrated two-axis autopilot.”

What I’m really trying to figure out is if adding a Gtn650 and a G5 as HSI to my plane will make it TAA. The GTN650 is both an IFR GPS and a moving map display, and I already have a single-axis autopilot.

 

[RussR]

What were your references?

The main reference for most things is the CFRs. 14 CFR 61.129f contains the definition of TAA for a Commercial Rating.

(j) Technically advanced airplane. Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, a technically advanced airplane must be equipped with an electronically advanced avionics system that includes the following installed components:

(1) An electronic Primary Flight Display (PFD) that includes, at a minimum, an airspeed indicator, turn coordinator, attitude indicator, heading indicator, altimeter, and vertical speed indicator;

(2) An electronic Multifunction Display (MFD) that includes, at a minimum, a moving map using Global Positioning System (GPS) navigation with the aircraft position displayed;

(3) A two axis autopilot integrated with the navigation and heading guidance system; and

(4) The display elements described in paragraphs (j)(1) and (2) of this section must be continuously visible.

This is in the chapter for Commercial ratings because it only really applies to that rating.

 

[mryan75]

Does anyone know the actual definition of a Technically Advanced Aircraft? I am searching around online and find two different definitions, one that says all you need is a moving map display, an IFR GPS, and an autopilot. The other definition I can find goes into more detail and says something like “a PFD that incorporates all flight instruments, a moving map display, and an integrated two-axis autopilot.”

What I’m really trying to figure out is if adding a Gtn650 and a G5 as HSI to my plane will make it TAA. The GTN650 is both an IFR GPS and a moving map display, and I already have a single-axis autopilot.

See above. Nope. Needs a two-axis.

 

[flyingron]

Russ nails it. A TAA is really meaningless outside of the commercial rating and hence is defined as stated. A GTN650 and single G5 isn't a TAA. You might be able to do it with two G5's and an autopilot.

 

[AA5Bman]

Darn.

 

[pnancoz]

I know I'm digging up an old thread.

Russ nails it. A TAA is really meaningless outside of the commercial rating and hence is defined as stated. A GTN650 and single G5 isn't a TAA. You might be able to do it with two G5's and an autopilot.

Why would a second G5 be needed? The G5 on the PFD page contains:
Airspeed
Turn Coordinator
Attitude Indicator
Heading Indicator
Altimeter
Vertical Speed Indicator

This combined with a GTN650 on the moving map page and a 2-axis autopilot should qualify as a TAA. Am I right?

 

[asicer]

I know I'm digging up an old thread.



Why would a second G5 be needed? The G5 on the PFD page contains:
Airspeed
Turn Coordinator
Attitude Indicator
Heading Indicator
Altimeter
Vertical Speed Indicator

This combined with a GTN650 on the moving map page and a 2-axis autopilot should qualify as a TAA. Am I right?

My understanding is that whether dual or single, G5 altitude/airspeed is not considered primary. For this reason, G5 can't qualify as TAA.

 

[flyingron]

Why would a second G5 be needed? The G5 on the PFD page contains

My reading of the reg is that the PFD and MFD are distinct instruments, not "pages" on the same one.

 

[pnancoz]

My reading of the reg is that the PFD and MFD are distinct instruments, not "pages" on the same one.

You would be using the PFD page on the G5 and moving map page on the GTN650.

My understanding is that whether dual or single, G5 altitude/airspeed is not considered primary. For this reason, G5 can't qualify as TAA.

I don't see anything in the requirement that specifies that altitude/airspeed on the display need to be primary. Just that they need to be on the display.

 

[TCABM]

You would be using the PFD page on the G5 and moving map page on the GTN650...

The challenge is

(j) Technically advanced airplane...

(1) An electronic Primary Flight Display (PFD) ...
(2) An electronic Multifunction Display (MFD) ...

(4) The display elements described in paragraphs (j)(1) and (2) of this section must be continuously visible...

I don’t think the GTN moving map page qualifies as continuously visible, but I’m sure it could be argued either way. Still have to have the 2-axis autopilot, too.

 

[N1120A]

The PFD would be the G5s and the MFD would be the moving map GPS + probably an engine monitor. You still need 2 axis on the AP (altitude hold to go with the roll)

 

[RussR]

The challenge is



I don’t think the GTN moving map page qualifies as continuously visible, but I’m sure it could be argued either way. Still have to have the 2-axis autopilot, too.

The MFD must be continuously visible. The moving map page does not have to be. Any other interpretation quickly becomes silly, because an MFD that does not have the ability to be changed from the map page wouldn't really be a "multi"-function display.

Plus, even MFDs in obvious TAA's (like G1000's in Cirruseses) can be configured to not have a moving map displayed if you wanted to.

 

[TCABM]

The MFD must be continuously visible...

Yeah, that. Brain fart on my part; we were just having this discussion a couple weeks ago with one the 172s that’s about to come off the line. It’s got a GTN750 right now and the owner has plans to put in a G3X and some other stuff to get rid of the vacuum system as well so we asked if he had thought about a gfc500 as well to open it up as an option for commercial students since their only options right now are SR20s.

 

[AlphaMike]

This is interesting. I have 2 G5s a GTN750, TT autopilot and JPI 900. Does that qualify as a Technically Advanced Aircraft?

 

[Ravioli]

This is interesting. I have 2 G5s a GTN750, TT autopilot and JPI 900. Does that qualify as a Technically Advanced Aircraft?

You'll hear Yes and No here. (This is PoA after all)

But I agree with @RussR's interpretation and would tell you yes. Heck even my plane with D-100, auto-pilot, and 430W is TAA. Can you believe it? Technically Advanced with such ancient equipment?

I've heard of people doing their commercial in RV-6a's that are TAA. I think it's for bragging rights, and maybe for insurance purposes.

 

[TCABM]

What constitutes an MFD is an interesting discussion to me. The Advanced Avionics Handbook incorporates the following definition for MFD, “A cockpit display capable of presenting information received from a variety of advanced avionics systems.

The following introduction kicks off Chapter 5, Information Systems.
Multi-Function Display
A multi-function display (MFD) presents information drawn from a variety of aircraft information systems. Many installations allow overlay or inclusion of systems indications in the primary flight display (PFD), in addition to the primary flight instrument indications. By allowing you to view information provided by any one or combination of the installed systems, the MFD prevents the need for a separate display for each system. As does the flight management system (FMS)/area navigation (RNAV) unit, the MFD allows you to select different pages from different chapters that display information provided by various aircraft systems.

It seems to me PFD failover isn’t necessary, but the capability to display information from more than one device/box/system is an implied. I guess that means a GTN that is capable of controlling the transponder would qualify as an MFD.

 

[Spacedoc]

For what its worth, the Garmin website lists the 750 and 650 as "GPS/NAV/COMM/MFD". In the 750xi description under Multifunction Display it says "Supporting multiple inputs, the 6.9” display can put moving maps, terrain, traffic, weather, airport diagrams and more at your fingertips." So there's that.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Doesn’t it just matter that your Comm CFI and DPE agree that it’s TAA? Nothing else really counts/matters (other than just for POA discussion funsies).

 

[Flying_Nun]

From AOPA:

According to FAR 61.1, a TAA is an airplane equipped with an electronically advanced avionics system. To further define what electronic display equipment is required in a TAA the FAA also created 61.129(j):

(j)Technically advanced airplane. Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, a technically advanced airplane must be equipped with an electronically advanced avionics system that includes the following installed components:

The primary flight display and multifunction display may be combined on a split screen, as long as the elements specified in 61.129(j) are continuously visible.

An electronic Primary Flight Display (PFD) that includes, at a minimum, an airspeed indicator, turn coordinator, attitude indicator, heading indicator, altimeter, and vertical speed indicator.

An electronic Multifunction Display (MFD) that includes, at a minimum, a moving map using Global Positioning System (GPS) navigation with the aircraft position displayed.

A two axis autopilot integrated with the navigation and heading guidance system.

The display elements described in paragraphs (j)(1) and (2) of this section must be continuously visible


https://www.aopa.org/training-and-s...que/operations/technically-advanced-airplanes


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[JimNtexas]

My club just started a $50K upgrade on our Dakota, an all singing and dancing Garmin system including a 650, dual G5s, and a fancy Garmin Autopilot.

We wanted a TAA and have researched this issue.

This document gives a lot of insight into the thinking behind 61.129:

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...fication-training-and-pilot-schools-and-other

I spoke to an ops inspector at the SAT FSDO about TAAs, in particular I wanted to know who decides what is and isn’t a TAA.

He said like all other checkrides, the Examiner decides if the applicant’s airplane meets the ACS requirements for the Commercial checkride.