IR and X Plane

TexasAviation

TexasAviation

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TexasAviation
I just started working on my instrument rating. Bought the King Schools videos and love what I'm learning so far.

I've also heard a home simulator can be useful for instrument training, so I bought X Plane and a yoke. (I know I can't log the time ... don't worry.)

So far, I've just flown the sim in the clouds and shot the ILS at my home field a few times. It's fun! And humbling.

Any recommendations for useful things to do in the sim as a beginner? I'd like to learn as much as I can without burning real avgas. :)
 
TexasAviation said:
I just started working on my instrument rating. Bought the King Schools videos and love what I'm learning so far.

I've also heard a home simulator can be useful for instrument training, so I bought X Plane and a yoke. (I know I can't log the time ... don't worry.)

So far, I've just flown the sim in the clouds and shot the ILS at my home field a few times. It's fun! And humbling.

Any recommendations for useful things to do in the sim as a beginner? I'd like to learn as much as I can without burning real avgas. :)
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Sims can be excellent procedure trainers for IR. Also good for visiting new fields and flying new (to you) approaches.

BUT not until you've had enough instruction to have the correct procedures to practice. You can build up too many bad habits that then have to be unlearned.

John
 
Yeah -- stay off the sim until you get actual instruction. All you'll do at this point is develop bad habits that you'll have to unlearn later which potentially will bog your training down.
 
Get some instruction first. Don't develop bad habits. Once you have an idea of what instrument training is like, go use the sim.
 
You've spent the money, but American Flyers has an IR course that interfaces with FSX which I found to be pretty helpful. But yes, do in conjunction with a CFI and real world flying.
 
I will be the lone voice of dissent, I suppose.

Every time this comes up, it's all "Don't do it until you get some instruction, you'll develop bad habits." Except an explicit list of bad habits is never given. So, ignore that.

Second, I did it the way everyone recommends, and I had to buy the damn simulator to figure it out for myself after my instructor couldn't seem to convey the technique. I had to unlearn the bad habits acquired sitting next to a CFII for 40+ hours.

So, unless the people sayin not to 'cause reasons won't get REALLY explicit, I'd say go for it. Can't really hurt, can definitely help. And no, it's not you, the yoke is REALLY sensitive. I'm thinking of building my own so I can dial back the pitch sensitivity.
 
Ok here's a few bad habits:

-- Not establishing headings or decent rates but chasing needles instead
-- not learning power settings/configs
-- not establishing a proper scan or understanding what instrument is primary for what
-- focusing on flying IAPs and not fundamental attitude flying
 
tsts4 said:
Ok here's a few bad habits:

-- Not establishing headings or decent rates but chasing needles instead
-- not learning power settings/configs
-- not establishing a proper scan or understanding what instrument is primary for what
-- focusing on flying IAPs and not fundamental attitude flying
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Agree with this. Home sims can be fun, but as @tsts4 stated, caution must be used to not introduce bad habits.
 
And I'll add: not learning to use trim properly which I've found to be essential to good instrument flying.
 
I'll add that avionics are too perfect as a rule, weather is not realistic, some GPS models are imperfect (and it really matters IFR), and the control forces are totally wrong. You can get something from it, but you need guidance about what works and what doesn't. Going straight to an approach is the wrong thing. Fundamentals. If you can't fly a Pattern A that really looks like a Pattern A, you're not ready for instrument procedures.

What the sims can do well is fail instruments. But it's not at all the same experience if you fail them, rather than an instructor when you don't expect it. FSX-based sims can do compass turns well, with all the errors. But, do you know how to do a compass turn? If you guess, you WILL make a bad habit.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'll add that avionics are too perfect as a rule, weather is not realistic, some GPS models are imperfect (and it really matters IFR), and the control forces are totally wrong. You can get something from it, but you need guidance about what works and what doesn't. Going straight to an approach is the wrong thing. Fundamentals. If you can't fly a Pattern A that really looks like a Pattern A, you're not ready for instrument procedures.

What the sims can do well is fail instruments. But it's not at all the same experience if you fail them, rather than an instructor when you don't expect it. FSX-based sims can do compass turns well, with all the errors. But, do you know how to do a compass turn? If you guess, you WILL make a bad habit.
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Oh yeah! Compass turns. Good catch.
 
TexasAviation said:
I just started working on my instrument rating. Bought the King Schools videos and love what I'm learning so far.

I've also heard a home simulator can be useful for instrument training, so I bought X Plane and a yoke. (I know I can't log the time ... don't worry.)

So far, I've just flown the sim in the clouds and shot the ILS at my home field a few times. It's fun! And humbling.

Any recommendations for useful things to do in the sim as a beginner? I'd like to learn as much as I can without burning real avgas. :)
Click to expand...

As others said, I'd highly recommend using with your CFI first and following his guidance, great tools for sure, just make sure you learn the right way vs instilling the wrong way as far as instrument flying goes, ones saves money, other is going to cost you money ;)

Some bad habits, the sequence/flow for a to around, for dropping the gear, the width of the pattern you fly a circling approach, course intercept angles, sequence you use to start a decent, etc etc. There is a reason you can't just play on a flight sim for XX hours, self endorse and take a check ride
 
And let me again add: After you've got the fundamentals they are excellent for practicing hold entries and approach procedures.
 
The other thing you get lax on, even in an approved simulator with a CFII beating down on you, is procedural issues. Radio comms, reporting, even tuning in and identifying nav aids. I do think simulators are useful for augmenting instrument hand flying skills on approaches, but that's about it. As mentioned, proper trim is essential and I have not been able to adequately replicate it on a simulator. I'm sure maybe the full motion simulators the majors use for training probably can, but not a PC based setup.

That said, there is some value in being able to immediately jump into another approach having just completed one, cramming a lot of practice in a short period of time.
 
One of the great advantages of the Sim is that you can jump back to the "heading for the hold" or "heading for the IAF" without actually having to burn 100LL flying there. My instructor did some ADF work in the sim with me as my aircraft doesn't have it (though that was purely for my personal education as it wasn't going to be testable and frankly, I doubt I'll ever fly a plane with an ADF).
 
AggieMike88 said:
Agree with this. Home sims can be fun, but as @tsts4 stated, caution must be used to not introduce bad habits.
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lol.

Guys, I GOT my bad habits from an instructor. It took buying the sim to work out why I was having so much trouble. As sensitive as the sim is in both roll and (esp) pitch, if you can fly that and maintain PTS, you can fly the real airplane.

Nothing I've seen so far is a reason not to fly a sim before taking a single IFR lesson with an instructor. Read an article or two on instrument scans, and try it. It's laughable that somehow having an instructor say the same thing is any better... they can't see your eyes.

Very curious what makes compass turns more complicated than UNOS. Works for me.
 
I spent a good portion of time during my IFR training on x-plane. My suggestions:

1) Use same model and configuration aircraft that you're training in reality (ie, steam gauge vs. g1000, etc.)
2) Get accustomed to x-plane (x-camera, weather controls, identifying failures, etc.)
3) Connect to your iPad, so that you can use Cloud Ahoy, ForeFlight, etc. - to analyze your progress and record flights to share with your instructor
4) Use PilotEdge - both to get comfortable with IFR radio comms, but also to file and fly IFR flight plans
5) Force yourself to follow a syllabus which allows you to practice the different types of approaches (ILS/LOC, GPS, VOR, etc.), DME ARCs, missed approaches, ODPs, etc.

Finally, don't waste money buying a super high end system. There are good cloud-based desktop alternatives which are inexpensive and give you 95% the same experience.

Hope that helps. Happy flying
 
+1 on Instrument scan and procedures. No sim will replicate the feel...not even the multi-million $$ ones, I'm told. My wife does FSI twice a year, and also practices instrument scans, etc using an add-on C550 in our basement sim. She likes the ROI on our sim better.

There are also add-on radios that are quite good on functionality. The upper-end GTN 'replicas' for X-Plane actually require the Garmin Trainer app be installed, and feed output into the sim from it. Garmin Pilot(and others, of course) will talk to XP and the functionality is the same as rw.

If you got the Saitek/Logitech yoke...you'll find the centering springs annoying. There is a simple mod (check YouTube) that will make it perform much better for you.

Careful...it's addictive :)

Jim
 
Horse-hockey on "not" using it - wear it out, any sim, fly the heck out of it! I used MS when working my instrument some years back, and use the latest version now. I bet you're smart enough to understand the diffrences between the airplane and the sim - no evil demon will infiltrate your brain from the sim, and establish unbreakable bad habits that will kill you someday. Honest. Geez, some of the crap that passes for advice here. . .posters worried that "the other guy" will be lead astray so much easier than they would be, of course. . .
 
I bought the carenado mooney model for xplane. While not exact, it's surprisingly close. I was very happy with how well what I teach myself on the sim translates to the airplane. I do wish the 430 buttonology was closer but it hasn't been a problem yet.

The ONLY thing that continues to irritate me is that xplane refuses to allow users to reduce pitch sensitivity. It's a common complaint on the forums. I don't care if that's how they think it should act.. I own a plane, and I know it's not. Yeah, yeah.. I get the pressure vs. displacement thing. All I want is a way to take it from 1/8" travel being a 500fpm swing. And the eclipse yoke doesn't help with this.. those springs.... bleah. Time to make my own with some firmware that will let me lie to xplane.

(Edit: The reason I mention it is that the sim is more difficult to control than the real thing. I've found that going from sim to plane, the plane feels a lot easier to deal with, since I've really had to keep my scan up in the sim to get it to do what I want.)
 
Palmpilot said:
I have used X-Plane successfully for IFR practice. I use a joystick rather than a yoke, and I found that it was much more realistic when I got one with little or no hysteresis. The one I got uses Hall effect sensors.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826280020

https://www.amazon.com/Hercules-2960706-Thrustmaster-T-16000M-Flight/dp/B001S0RTU0
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If you are getting a joystick (which I use too - and fully agree with), suggest you try to find a less expensive one. Here's what I use: Logitech Extreme 3D Pro
 
nj-pilot said:
If you are getting a joystick (which I use too - and fully agree with), suggest you try to find a less expensive one. Here's what I use: Logitech Extreme 3D Pro
Click to expand...

I have that one too. It's good enough, but I might not know what I'm missing. Would be interested in comparing them.
 
Should be on a game playing forum
 
nj-pilot said:
If you are getting a joystick (which I use too - and fully agree with), suggest you try to find a less expensive one. Here's what I use: Logitech Extreme 3D Pro
Click to expand...
That looks very much like the Logitech one that I found unsatisfactory. I found it too difficult to make the fine adjustments in pitch and bank that are necessary for IFR work.

I didn't spend that much because of not being able to find anything cheaper.
 
Self studied for the IFR rating, did countless hours before first flight IFR flight with instructor. Don't recall having to unlearn anything...at all. Picked up IFR clearance over the phone, did all the radio work, shot several approaches at Allentown.

PC yokes are terrible unless you wanna drop $800 on PFC yoke. Not all joysticks are created equal....the Thrustmaster T-16000M is a game changer. It's unbelievably precise. Completely worth it.

Regarding x-plane pitch sensitivity, you can adjust the response curve for pitch, roll and yaw.

Regarding the buttonology for built-in "garmin" 430 in xplane, if you're looking for something of higher fidelity, try the Reality XP 430. It uses the Garmin trainer under the covers, so the implementation is pretty much the same as the real equipment.
 
coma24 said:
Regarding x-plane pitch sensitivity, you can adjust the response curve for pitch, roll and yaw.
Click to expand...

I did. Went from linear to full exponential... it's still too sensitive. Like, < 1/8" travel. REALLY sensitive.

Do you know if I can edit some parameter(s) in the plane model itself to make it even less sensitive?
 
Was there software included with your joystick?.... That may be another way to adjust it.

Pretty much anything in XP plane model parameters can be adjusted (you can even build your own airplane from scratch)....but it's not for the faint of heart or newbie. Confirm that your joystick is calibrated inside XP, and check for proprietary software with it. Good luck!

Jim
 
coma24 said:
Self studied for the IFR rating, did countless hours before first flight IFR flight with instructor. Don't recall having to unlearn anything...at all. Picked up IFR clearance over the phone, did all the radio work, shot several approaches at Allentown.

PC yokes are terrible unless you wanna drop $800 on PFC yoke. Not all joysticks are created equal....the Thrustmaster T-16000M is a game changer. It's unbelievably precise. Completely worth it.

Regarding x-plane pitch sensitivity, you can adjust the response curve for pitch, roll and yaw.

Regarding the buttonology for built-in "garmin" 430 in xplane, if you're looking for something of higher fidelity, try the Reality XP 430. It uses the Garmin trainer under the covers, so the implementation is pretty much the same as the real equipment.
Click to expand...

I got my PFC yoke for a couple hundred, they pop up on eBay every so often. I also second the Reality XP (tho, the database is tricky to update these days). I have the Emuteq Garsim that is a 1:1 recreating of a GNS530. Desktop Aviator also has a unit that will drive a GNS for much less $$ but it ain't as purdy.
 
Sundancer said:
Horse-hockey on "not" using it - wear it out, any sim, fly the heck out of it! I used MS when working my instrument some years back, and use the latest version now. I bet you're smart enough to understand the diffrences between the airplane and the sim - no evil demon will infiltrate your brain from the sim, and establish unbreakable bad habits that will kill you someday. Honest. Geez, some of the crap that passes for advice here. . .posters worried that "the other guy" will be lead astray so much easier than they would be, of course. . .
Click to expand...
I wish I could "like" this post more than once. Just understand the limitations of the simulator itself and fly the simulated wings off of it. I rely heavily upon the autopilot in the sim as I'm more concerned a out procedural ops combined with energy management. Hand flying a sim takes away some processing power you could be using for something more important.

In the sim, I use steam gauges with no GPS and fly the old-fashioned way. If you can do that, the only problem you'll have in a transition to glass is the button pushing. You will have excellent situational awareness.

The key is being able to revert back to the "old method" when the new stuff fails. And, the new stuff does fail. I have plenty of experience with that.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
In the sim, I use steam gauges with no GPS and fly the old-fashioned way. If you can do that, the only problem you'll have in a transition to glass is the button pushing. You will have excellent situational awareness.
Click to expand...

Have you ever flown a G1000 using the autopilot during an IFR procedure? How about using VNAV?

Sure, it's just button pushing, like programming a computer is just mouse clicks.

There are a lot of ways for the non-proficient to screw up "pushing buttons."

And the nominal scan is much simpler, but the reversionary and standby scans are pretty weird.

The transition is much easier than the other way around, but it's not "just" anything. It takes some real work, several hours worth if you've never used it before. Especially when NO sim gets it 100% right. Even the manufacturer's sim won't do FLC, which is best practice for climbs.

You might know where you are in space due to the moving map, but that isn't all there is to situational awareness. You need to know where traffic is, where terrain is, where weather is, and what your minimums are -- the moving map doesn't show that last part. You need to know where you are in the procedure as well. It's common in a course reversal to have the same point show up multiple times, at different altitudes. Sometimes the same point shows up in the missed approach procedure, too.
 
MAKG1 said:
Have you ever flown a G1000 using the autopilot during an IFR procedure? How about using VNAV?
Especially when NO sim gets it 100% right. Even the manufacturer's sim won't do FLC, which is best practice for climbs.
Click to expand...

I'm not exactly sure what sim kicked your dog in the past but I'm sorry.

Where do you see that a Garmin G1000 sim with GFC700 FCS won't do FLC?? Our CAP squadron has members from Olathe who work at Garmin and we regularly have G1000 refresher courses where Garmin lends us their G1000 simulators. They are fully functional (hardware and software) and include a fully functional GFC700. We fly entire approaches in LNAV, +v, LPV, we set up climb profiles using FLC, we do CAS descents all by using the GFC700 on the simulator.

The software that drives the sim is commercially available and can be incorporated into FSX or X-Plane and you can have a real 1:1 experience with the buttonology.

You keep making this argument that somehow, sim avionics can't recreate RW avionics. I tend to agree if you use the stock avionics that Microsoft/Laminar Research provide, but there are other options out there that use OEM software that faithfully reproduce every button push and knob turn.
 
labbadabba said:
I'm not exactly sure what sim kicked your dog in the past but I'm sorry.

Where do you see that a Garmin G1000 sim with GFC700 FCS won't do FLC?? Our CAP squadron has members from Olathe who work at Garmin and we regularly have G1000 refresher courses where Garmin lends us their G1000 simulators. They are fully functional (hardware and software) and include a fully functional GFC700. We fly entire approaches in LNAV, +v, LPV, we set up climb profiles using FLC, we do CAS descents all by using the GFC700 on the simulator.

The software that drives the sim is commercially available and can be incorporated into FSX or X-Plane and you can have a real 1:1 experience with the buttonology.

You keep making this argument that somehow, sim avionics can't recreate RW avionics. I tend to agree if you use the stock avionics that Microsoft/Laminar Research provide, but there are other options out there that use OEM software that faithfully reproduce every button push and knob turn.
Click to expand...
Garmin's OEM G1000 trainer has a bug where the FLC button has no effect, so you cannot climb per best practices. The VS button works fine.

Maybe they have some unreleased fix for it they have been sharing with you but not others, but the one you buy for $25 off their website has been broken in this manner for years. It wouldn't make sense for them not to release such a fix if they had it, unless they broke something else. But it has the look of abandonware, so I'm doubtful that anyone cares.
 
I had been playing flight sim games since I was 10... I had no issues in either PPL or Instrument training. I still play these games and don't feel as if I'm confused with anything when I get in a real plane.
 
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