Ipad doesn't mean paperless !

sdflyer

sdflyer

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sdflyer
So according AC 91.78 Your Ipad should be accompanied either by paper copies or another fully charged Ipad. Otherwise, you are not legal.

More about it on page 21
http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2011/media/SepOct2011.pdf

So the button line is flying with Ipad is more expensive since it doesn't void paper charts (unless sure you have another fully charged ipad.)
 
sdflyer said:
So according AC 91.78 Your Ipad should be accompanied either by paper copies or another fully charged Ipad. Otherwise, you are not legal.
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Do me a favor. Download AC 91-78 and tell me where it says that. Did you actually read it?

Did you even READ that safety brief you posted:
sdflyer said:
The FAA does not require you to carry paper, but AC 91-78 suggests that pilots consider a secondary source of aeronautical information. The secondary source could be a separate electronic display.
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Nowhere does it say "you are not legal". It's pretty clear, it is legal, but it is suggested you have a backup.
 
ROFL... I was just about to post the same thing.

Reading and retention. I haz it! :rofl: :nono:
 
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jesse said:
Did you even READ that safety brief you posted:


Nowhere does it say "you are not legal". It's pretty clear, it is legal, but it is suggested you have a backup.
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If you such a good lawyer Jesse, you can go ahead and argue with FAA ! I called FSDO and they confirmed explicitly.
 
dmspilot said:
Yeah... they're called advisory circulars, as in, they are advisory. :yesnod:
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Not only that the ADVISORY circular does not say it is illegal, nor do the federal aviation regulations, if a FSDO inspector says that he needs to be educated. They're not god.
 
denverpilot said:
Call a different FSDO. :)
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...or the Chief Counsel, from whence came the FAA web site statement that Part 91 operators aren't even required to have paper charts. Or perhaps the FSDO person to whom he spoke thought he was a Part 121/125/135 or Subpart F/K operator.
 
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I believe Chief Counsel opinions printed out and rolled up work well as clue bats. :)
 
FSDOs all singing the same tune, will we only ever read about that in an April 1 'news' article?
 
I heard from someone the other day that you can get dinged for having out of date charts in the plane but not if you have no charts in the plane. Huh?

What if you have an out of date chart in addition to a current and charged iPad
 
I've been on the fence for weeks over whether or not to buy I-pad or other tablet and start practicing with electronic charts. Thanks for starting this thread.

At recent training sponsored by local FSDO, the FAA inspectiors described their MO for conducting ramp checks. Note that there are Maint inspectors and Ops inspectors, they apparently look at different things. The Ops guy said, if he didn't find current paper, he'd accept current data on an Ipad.

I don't use a cell phone much, I pay $100/yr for an old T-Mobile brick and usually don't even turn it on.

I'm just cheap. One look at the internet message boards proves that most of what folks have to say isn't worth paying to hear. Phone company marketing people have always done a great job of creating a sense of need for their more expensive products. In any case,

I'm thinking IPAD might be responsive enough, I believe I can upload sufficent qty of latest charts when I'm near a big wifi pipe.

Maybe I can update and use my Garmin Aera 510 datafor a backup, on my the occational long cross country.

Another tablet concern I had is tabbing across screens to an app that lets me write down frequencies, clearance changes, hold instructions etc.

I tried one tablet device that ran on the andriod OS and found it to be clunkier than Apple's. At this point, I'm leaning toward the I-pad.
 
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Another tablet concern I had is tabbing across screens to an app that lets me write down frequencies, clearance changes, hold instructions etc.
Click to expand...

maybe you know, the ipad has just such a thing, 'scratchpad' which has obviated need for almost any paper in the cockpit.
 
kontiki said:
I've been on the fence for weeks over whether or not to buy I-pad or other tablet and start practicing with electronic charts. Thanks for starting this thread.

At recent training sponsored by local FSDO, the FAA inspectiors described their MO for conducting ramp checks. Note that there are Maint inspectors and Ops inspectors, they apparently look at different things. The Ops guy said, if he didn't find current paper, he'd accept current data on an Ipad.

I don't use a cell phone much, I pay $100/yr for an old T-Mobile brick and usually don't even turn it on.

I'm just cheap. One look at the internet message boards proves that most of what folks have to say isn't worth paying to hear. Phone company marketing people have always done a great job of creating a sense of need for their more expensive products. In any case,

I'm thinking IPAD might be responsive enough, I believe I can upload sufficent qty of latest charts when I'm near a big wifi pipe.

Maybe I can update and use my Garmin Aera 510 datafor a backup, on my the occational long cross country.

Another tablet concern I had is tabbing across screens to an app that lets me write down frequencies, clearance changes, hold instructions etc.

I tried one tablet device that ran on the andriod OS and found it to be clunkier than Apple's. At this point, I'm leaning toward the I-pad.
Click to expand...

I've tried several different options for charting over the years and at this time the iPad solutions are hands down winners IMO, at least for IFR. For VFR I think that keeping the DB in a good panel mount or portable GPS reasonably current would be sufficient.

When I started flying IFR I'd just purchase NACO approach books and low enroute charts on a per trip basis but more than once I had to scramble for a chart that wasn't readily available. I tried Jepp's regional service for a while and hated it. The monthly updates involved at least a couple hours of mind numbing effort, the cost was steep, and inevitably I needed to fly outside my chart boundaries every month or two. Then I went with Howie Keith's Airchart service. I liked the bound charts but the process of checking the "Updater" got to be pretty tedious in the last few months of the annual cycle when the list of changes one needed to peruse before each flight was up to 20 pages long. Towards the end of my Airchart days free NACO approach chart downloads became available and I started printing approaches for each flight and used only the bound low enroute and sectional books. Of course that left me with no approach chart in the rare instance when I needed an unplanned diversion for weather.

Next I got Jepp charts on the MFD in my panel. For backup I purchased a Samsung Q1 tablet (still have it and looking to sell) with JeppView loaded. Between the MFD and my GNS480 both of which have airways I don't think I pulled out a low enroute (Airchart) more than once in a few years. I never got fully comfortable with the MFD presentation which split each approach chart into four separate pages and the near $1000 annual subscription was a bit hard to swallow.

Now I'm using ForeFlight on an iPad2 with my iPhone as an emergency backup. The price for updates ($75 or $150 with geo referenced approaches) is substantially better than anything from Jepp and the display on the iPad is large enough I can read the text while viewing an entire approach chart. My only gripe so far is the propensity for the iPad to register inadvertent screen touches causing a switch to something other than what I want to see at a critical time.

Since I've gotten used to the iPad I haven't carried a single paper chart in the plane on several trips.
 
kontiki said:
At recent training sponsored by local FSDO, the FAA inspectiors described their MO for conducting ramp checks. Note that there are Maint inspectors and Ops inspectors, they apparently look at different things. The Ops guy said, if he didn't find current paper, he'd accept current data on an Ipad.
Click to expand...
While the FAA Inspector's ramp check checklist calls for them to ask if you have current charts (and foremost of us, it doesn't matter if they're electronic or paper), if you don't have them, there is nothing they can do other than point out the things that can go wrong without them. The only time lack of current charts can factor into an enforcement action is as an aggravating condition if you break a specific reg (e.g., busting airspace) -- see the FAQ link above.

I'm thinking IPAD might be responsive enough, I believe I can upload sufficent qty of latest charts when I'm near a big wifi pipe.
Click to expand...
You can upload every VFR and IFR chart in the USA on a 32gB iPad (and maybe a 16gB -- I haven't tested that). Download each 28 days takes about 2 hours for the coverage package I have on automatic selection, which is everything east of the Mississippi except the H-charts.

Maybe I can update and use my Garmin Aera 510 datafor a backup, on my the occational long cross country.
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The 510 is more useful as a navigator and in-flight weather unit, while the iPad is more useful for flight planning and charts.

Another tablet concern I had is tabbing across screens to an app that lets me write down frequencies, clearance changes, hold instructions etc.
Click to expand...
You can do that on the Scratchpad page of Foreflight, but I found that it's a lot easier to stick with my old kneeboard and 5x8 mini-legal pad for that.

I tried one tablet device that ran on the andriod OS and found it to be clunkier than Apple's. At this point, I'm leaning toward the I-pad.
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iPad seems to be what the pros are choosing, and after 10 months with iPad/Foreflight, I'm very happy with my choice.
 
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Ron Levy said:
You can do that on the Scratchpad page of Foreflight, but I found that it's a lot easier to stick with my old kneeboard and 5x8 mini-legal pad for that.
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I kept cockpit paper for jotting notes also. Thought that FF's scratchpad was too limited.

Then I came across the Notes Plus app. I still use the FF Scratchpad for ATIS but everything else I need to write in flight (so far anyway) is just three clicks away (one double to the multi-tasking board and one more to switch to the app).

Except for checklists (I still like the sense of picking it up to use it) my paper is all backup at this stage.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
FSDOs all singing the same tune, will we only ever read about that in an April 1 'news' article?
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I recently went to the FAA customer service website to ask a question (I know; I should know better). The answer was "call your FSDO."

I replied that this was a nationwide problem and not one where it would be a good idea to have different local interpretations.

They replied that

"Our FSDOs are standardized and provide the same information."

And it wasn't even April 1.
 
i'm missing something here. The publication the OP referenced states on page 21:
As far as the FAA is concerned, “The in-flight
use of an EFB in lieu of paper reference material is
the decision of the aircraft operator and the pilot
in command” for part 91
Click to expand...
and
The FAA does not require you to carry paper, but
AC 91-78 suggests that pilots consider a secondary
source of aeronautical information.
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
I believe it was the FSDO Inspector to whom the OP spoke who was "missing something," not the OP, who merely asked someone who should know, and got the wrong answer.
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You're right, but I was referring to the original post - reading something and getting the opposite of what was said in it. May be understandable, but still "missing something."
 
denverpilot said:
I thought it was awesome that you asked. I'm sure they were like deer in headlights. ;)
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Whole Thread. Me in Green; FAA in red:

Customer (Mark Kolber) 09/22/2011 07:58 AM
In addition to expanding the use of ATDs, the 2009 revision to 61.57 appears to have limited the use of a combination of flight in aircraft and the use of simulators and FTDs. Previously, one could use a combination of aircraft and simulator/FTDs to meet the 6 approach requirement. Now it appears that they cannot be used in combination at all, unless there is also an ATD in the mix. At least as the reg reads, you can do the 6 in an aircraft, the 6 in a sim/FTD, with the only approved combination being an aircraft, a sim/FTD and an ATD. The Final Rule Supplementary Material give no guidance on this limitation; is it merely an error in the way the rule was re-written or was it intentional?


Response (FAA Customer Service Agent) 09/28/2011 04:09 PM
Dear Mr. Kolber:

Your local FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) can give the best answer to your question. Their personnel will evaluate your question along with any specific issues you may have. You can find contact information for your local FSDO on our website at: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/

Thank you for your question.

Customer (Mark Kolber) 09/28/2011 05:01 PM
This is a national issue that is subject to multiple interprettation and
needs to be dealt with no a national not a reigonal basis. What happens
if FSDO A says you're current but you have an incident at FSDO B and they
decide you're not.


Response (FAA Customer Service Agent) 09/28/2011 05:10 PM
Dear Mr. Kolber:

Our FSDOs are standardized and provide the same information. If you don't want to talk to an inspector in a FSDO, we recommend that you contact the regional Flight Standards Division.

Customer (Mark Kolber) 09/28/2011 08:30 PM
I'm sorry but that's simply not accurate. I could pass this around and get a really good laugh out of it.


Customer (Mark Kolber) 09/28/2011 08:38 PM
>Our FSDOs are standardized and provide the same information.
You're joking, right?

Response (FAA Customer Service Agent) 10/04/2011 02:05 PM
Dear Mr. Kolber:

If you are having difficulty communicating with a FSDO, we recommend that you contact the regional office.
 
Or bring up the time that the Memphis FSDO said GPS couldn't be used in lieu of an NDB.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can upload every VFR and IFR chart in the USA on a 32gB iPad (and maybe a 16gB -- I haven't tested that). Download each 28 days takes about 2 hours for the coverage package I have on automatic selection, which is everything east of the Mississippi except the H-charts.
Click to expand...

You need a better internet connection. The entire US VFR (mosaic of sectionals and tacs), IFR LO's, and georeferenced terminal procedures doesn't take over an hour on mine.
 
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