Interesting thing happened to me.

jordane93

jordane93

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I was flying on Sunday and was about 7 miles to the south of FRG getting ready to land. I was at TPA (1100ft) and tower asked if I saw a drone at my 11 o clock 800ft. I didn't see the it but ATC said it was no factor and I could continue straight in. About a minute later, ATC said the drone was following me and was at my 6 o clock and he called up the drone to see if it was on the frequency. I never saw it but it got me thinking. It was about 5 miles from the airport at 800ft so it would definitely be in FRG's airspace. The drone was not legal to be in the airspace correct? Don't RC and drones have designated areas where they can launch from?
 
Kind of creepy actually...
He called the drone to see if it was on freq?? Do they have some sort of radio relay to the base operator?
 
And also scary at Republic, depending where the drone was that airport is under the Bravo for JFK. If I recall it starts at 2000, but only been there once.
 
You think the average RC pilot knows and/or gives a damn about FAA rules? lol
 
Kritchlow said:
Kind of creepy actually...
He called the drone to see if it was on freq?? Do they have some sort of radio relay to the base operator?
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Let's not forget that "drone" can mean more than a hobbyist RC guy with a 1 lb quad copter. It could possibly have been a bigger UAV/UAS which often do have radios onboard which relay to an operator somewhere in the world. If this was the case, then they will know FAA rules and are probably complying.
 
If it's a model aircraft operating within 5 miles of the airport, they just have to notify the tower of the operation.

Not sure how this tower was able to inform you on the position of the aircraft. Odds of seeing it visually or on a radar feed is pretty slim. No requirement to be up on frequency either.

FAA really needs to get on the ball with all these UAS commercial and model aircraft out there. I'm sick of hearing about near misses and ACs that are advisory and not regulatory. Get something in writing now.
 
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If it was following at your six it was no RC quadcopter or no RC plane......it would have to be a regular drone with a remote pilot who could see you......... possibly PD related or DHS I'm guessing........been flying RC since 1972 and it's not us........
 
Velocity173 said:
If it's a model aircraft operating within 5 miles of the airport, they just have to notify the tower of the operation.

Not sure how this tower was able to inform you on the position of the aircraft. Odds of seeing it visually or on a radar feed is pretty slim.
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Yea I was wondering the same thing.
 
Direct C51 said:
Let's not forget that "drone" can mean more than a hobbyist RC guy with a 1 lb quad copter. It could possibly have been a bigger UAV/UAS which often do have radios onboard which relay to an operator somewhere in the world. If this was the case, then they will know FAA rules and are probably complying.
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Agreed, and if the controller had altitude information, then presumably the "drone" had a transponder, suggesting it was a legitimate UAS. I wonder why the controller was unable to establish radio contact with the operator.
 
drotto said:
And also scary at Republic, depending where the drone was that airport is under the Bravo for JFK. If I recall it starts at 2000, but only been there once.
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Depends on where you are. The NY Bravo can start anywhere from 500ft-4000ft.
 
UngaWunga said:
You think the average RC pilot knows and/or gives a damn about FAA rules? lol
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Actually the "average" RC pilot probably knows more about airspace rules thane the "average" full scale pilot. And obeys the rules a lot better than the full scale pilot.
What you are seeing with all the intrusions by drones are people who have no previous affiliation with RC aircraft, and no knowledge that there are even rules involved. The new drones can be bought almost anywhere and flown by any idiot with $200.00 cash. No actual flying skill involved.
 
I can see these drones becoming a nuisance, kind of creepy for sure!
 
Shepherd said:
Actually the "average" RC pilot probably knows more about airspace rules thane the "average" full scale pilot. And obeys the rules a lot better than the full scale pilot.
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How exactly do you figure that? I'm having a hard time believing that someone with a $1000 toy is going to have more knowledge about airspace than someone who has tens of thousands of investment in certification, a potentially 6 figure aircraft, and their own life on the line.
 
JasonM said:
:rolleyes: :nono: :mad2:
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I have, twice, so far been unable to land at an airport as a result of high speed RC aircraft maneuvering all over the runway and airport.

The last time this happened I had already faced headwinds significantly higher than forecast and was down to 30 minutes of fuel remaining when I made it to the airport. Keep in mind this 30 minutes of fuel remaining was in an aircraft that cruises at about 70 knots. I also had no confidence that just because I had 30 minutes of fuel remaining fuel would actually continue to feed the engine for that entire 30 minutes.

I flew final twice and had to go around both times. I then had to climb up to an altitude where they hopefully wouldn't hit me and circle the field. I was starting to scope out alternative landing locations around the airport and had picked out a dirt road that looked like my best chance when they finally landed the things.

Fairly annoying. Both of these occurrences had no NOTAMS published and nobody staffing the FBO for me to voice my complaints. They obviously saw and heard me - why they decided they could continue to fly I'm not sure.
 
Was there an appropriate ass-kicking each time?
 
If it's an RC hobby model they probably don't have a radio relay on board. If it's an actual UAV for law enforcement, military or other then they probably do have radio, complete with primary frequency and guard.

The aircraft I fly on daily is constantly sharing both airspace and taxiway with UAVs. Of course, these UAVs have pilots that strictly adhere to the rules. Of course it would be completely different if some hobbyist was just all over the airport with no regard to anything else in the air.
 
mercurial said:
How exactly do you figure that? I'm having a hard time believing that someone with a $1000 toy is going to have more knowledge about airspace than someone who has tens of thousands of investment in certification, a potentially 6 figure aircraft, and their own life on the line.
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Every radio control club that I have ever belonged to has mandatory airspace briefings every month at the scheduled meetings. If there are any changes, such as TFR's etc, those notices get sent to members, and are posted at the club flying field.
In addition to FAA regulations, we have AMA regulations, and local club regulations that are rigorously enforced.
With the exception of other RC fliers on the site, I'll bet there isn't a single pilot here who can name a single regulation related to RC aircraft.
Did you know that there are occasionally requirements for full scale aircraft to give way to models? Never covered that in the written exam, did they.
I rest my case.
 
Shepherd said:
Every radio control club that I have ever belonged to has mandatory airspace briefings every month at the scheduled meetings. If there are any changes, such as TFR's etc, those notices get sent to members, and are posted at the club flying field.
In addition to FAA regulations, we have AMA regulations, and local club regulations that are rigorously enforced.
With the exception of other RC fliers on the site, I'll bet there isn't a single pilot here who can name a single regulation related to RC aircraft.
Did you know that there are occasionally requirements for full scale aircraft to give way to models? Never covered that in the written exam, did they.
I rest my case.
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That's all well and good but I seriously doubt every single rc pilot belongs to a club that does that. Many others have little regard for airspace and full scale airplanes. It's scary for us because we have more than just a toy on the line if there is a crash caused by an rc flyer that isn't as informed as the ones in the clubs you belong to. Jesse's story above highlights the disregard many rc pilots have for rules and airspace.
 
Shepherd said:
Did you know that there are occasionally requirements for full scale aircraft to give way to models? Never covered that in the written exam, did they.
I rest my case.
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well yeah.....anytime a possible midair could occur - possible loss of pilot's life vs loss of $200 toy - I'm gonna give way. Don't trust the modeler to.
Really don't want my case rested in that fashion.
 
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wrbix said:
well yeah.....anytime a possible midair could occur - possible loss of pilot's life vs loss of $200 toy - I'm gonna give way. Don't trust the modeler to.
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Exactly. +1
 
There is a drone development program at Redstone Army Airfield (well actually in the restricted area to the west) and they occasionally use the runway for practice. I have been in the pattern with drones doing touch and go's and the operator is on frequency calling his position reports.
 
jordane93 said:
Sometime between 3-5pm local time.
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I'm probably not going to listen to two hours of live atc archives, but maybe someone will. I'd be very interested to see if the tower actually was in communication with the operator at some point.
 
Direct C51 said:
Let's not forget that "drone" can mean more than a hobbyist RC guy with a 1 lb quad copter. It could possibly have been a bigger UAV/UAS which often do have radios onboard which relay to an operator somewhere in the world. If this was the case, then they will know FAA rules and are probably complying.
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That's what I'm thinking. ATC isn't going to try to contact a hobby drone on the radio.

Also, I doubt if a hobby drone would even be visible to radar, much less by eyesight. Full size aircraft are hard enough to spot.
 
A big part of the problem today is how the hobby of model flying has changed in the last 10-15 years.
In the past, building a RC plane was a big investment in money and time. It took months to build a plane. Kits, engines and radios were very expensive. The normal process was find someone who belonged to a club, go to the field, hang out, have someone TEACH you to fly (instead of turning your plane back into a kit). In the process you joined the AMA, learned the rules, and had fun.

Now, any cretin with a a few dollars can buy the entire shebang, pre-built, pre-programmed, ready to fly. It requires no time, or talent, or club membership.

The problem will continue to grow.
 
FRG's tower frequency is archived on LiveATC.net. Has some found this exchange on there and if so can you post the link?

Hopefully that audio could clarify what happened here. On the surface I don't see how the tower was following a small consumer drone from that distance... without a transponder primary radar would struggle to see something like that as a big bird likely produces a stonger return. Also the whole thing of trying to contact them on the tower frequency sounds strange.

If this was a precordinated activity then not sure why the tower would be alarmed that it was following their traffic

Post the audio or it didn't happen :lol:
 
I built an RC plane with my father about 20 years ago (took 10 years to finish the damn thing and we never flew it, but that's another story.) The "field" we would routinely visit was just a street in an area which had never been developed, and I seriously doubt any of the guys out there knew what airspace was. And this was only a couple miles from the airport I'm now flying out of. I doubt that this sort of arrangement is, or ever was, all that uncommon in the RC world.
 
For the real drones, I thought they were supposed to have a chase plane at all times. Am guessing that was relaxed, as we get lots of notams for the area between 5T6 Dona Ana NM and Deming to south of Tuscon for "Lights out operation", which ironically requires you to leave ALL of yours on at night according to the FSS guys when briefing. I was told by a drone operator that the heat signature from our engine should be enough, but I guess not.
 
Shepherd said:
Every radio control club that I have ever belonged to has mandatory airspace briefings every month at the scheduled meetings. If there are any changes, such as TFR's etc, those notices get sent to members, and are posted at the club flying field.
In addition to FAA regulations, we have AMA regulations, and local club regulations that are rigorously enforced.
With the exception of other RC fliers on the site, I'll bet there isn't a single pilot here who can name a single regulation related to RC aircraft.
Did you know that there are occasionally requirements for full scale aircraft to give way to models? Never covered that in the written exam, did they.
I rest my case.
Click to expand...

I agree. I've flown rc off and on over the years and the real pros always observe proper protocol at airports I've visited. Very careful to give right of way to GA aircraft.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I agree. I've flown rc off and on over the years and the real pros always observe proper protocol at airports I've visited. Very careful to give right of way to GA aircraft.
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I flew with an RC guy a few days ago and he said most people are regulation abiding RC flyers that follow the rules but there are always a handful that have to ruin it for the rest.
 
Shepherd said:
Every radio control club that I have ever belonged to has mandatory airspace briefings every month at the scheduled meetings. If there are any changes, such as TFR's etc, those notices get sent to members, and are posted at the club flying field.
In addition to FAA regulations, we have AMA regulations, and local club regulations that are rigorously enforced.
With the exception of other RC fliers on the site, I'll bet there isn't a single pilot here who can name a single regulation related to RC aircraft.
Did you know that there are occasionally requirements for full scale aircraft to give way to models? Never covered that in the written exam, did they.
I rest my case.
Click to expand...
But you can't equate voluntary club membership to mean the same thing as the mandatory 100% standards based training, and the 100% requirement of passing both written and practical exams that certificated pilots go through. In what universe does that even make sense?
 
Lindberg said:
What time was this? It'd be interesting to check live atc archive.
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jordane93 said:
Sometime between 3-5pm local time.
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I just listened to the first hour. Nada about any drone/UAV/UAS activity.

If someone else wants to listen to the last hour be my guest. I'm calling BS on this without something in the LiveATC archives to back it up.
 
Rigged4Flight said:
I just listened to the first hour. Nada about any drone/UAV/UAS activity.

If someone else wants to listen to the last hour be my guest. I'm calling BS on this without something in the LiveATC archives to back it up.
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You're right. I just made up the entire story for fun.:dunno::rolleyes2:
 
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