Interesting thing happened to me.

Rigged4Flight said:
I just listened to the first hour. Nada about any drone/UAV/UAS activity.

If someone else wants to listen to the last hour be my guest. I'm calling BS on this without something in the LiveATC archives to back it up.
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If you're going to accuse this, don't you think you should at least listen to the second hour?

I do not believe Jordan would make it up.
 
jordane93 said:
I was flying on Sunday and was about 7 miles to the south of FRG getting ready to land. I was at TPA (1100ft) and tower asked if I saw a drone at my 11 o clock 800ft. I didn't see the it but ATC said it was no factor and I could continue straight in. About a minute later, ATC said the drone was following me and was at my 6 o clock and he called up the drone to see if it was on the frequency. I never saw it but it got me thinking. It was about 5 miles from the airport at 800ft so it would definitely be in FRG's airspace. The drone was not legal to be in the airspace correct? Don't RC and drones have designated areas where they can launch from?
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I just noticed this....

If it was 5 miles south of FRG at 800, it was in Class E. FRG Class D only goes 4 miles in that direction.

The drone operator didn't bust a reg, presuming all the facts are correct. Not even the Mode C reg if ATC knew the drone's altitude.
 
It's surprising how often in my Flybaby pilots call up ATC confused as hell as to why they just spotted an airplane that ATC didn't give them a traffic warning for and how often ATC forgets that there are lots of guys like me buzzing around with a poor primary radar return and no transponder.

Audio from the last time. In this case I jumped on the radio to explain things to ATC since the other traffic was telling them I was at an altitude that would be an airspace violation which I definitely was not:
http://angelldevelopment.com/invisible-flybaby.mp3

I usually monitor ATC frequencies for whatever area I'm buzzing around in but rarely tell them I'm there since they rarely are able to get a radar return in the first place unless I climb really high.

Keep in mind it's fairly hard for me to understand what ATC is saying, with my poor radio reception and loud open cockpit environment, so my response at one point didn't make the most sense.
 
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MAKG1 said:
I just noticed this....

If it was 5 miles south of FRG at 800, it was in Class E. FRG Class D only goes 4 miles in that direction.

The drone operator didn't bust a reg, presuming all the facts are correct. Not even the Mode C reg if ATC knew the drone's altitude.
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The RC might have been right on the border of the Class D. But according to Rigged4Flight I made this all up so it really doesn't matter.
 
jordane93 said:
The RC might have been right on the border of the Class D. But according to Rigged4Flight I made this all up so it really doesn't matter.
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You were there. You are familiar with the radio traffic going on at the time of the encounter. And yet you expect us to wade through 2 hours of traffic to get the unedited version of your story.

Yes, I call BS. And I will gladly offer a public apology if you would be so kind as to prove me wrong with a link to the recording and a time on that recording of the incident.
 
Rigged4Flight said:
You were there. You are familiar with the radio traffic going on at the time of the encounter. And yet you expect us to wade through 2 hours of traffic to get the unedited version of your story.

Yes, I call BS. And I will gladly offer a public apology if you would be so kind as to prove me wrong with a link to the recording and a time on that recording of the incident.
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lol!!! I don't think he expected you to wade through anything!!
 
Kritchlow said:
lol!!! I don't think he expected you to wade through anything!!
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It does seem odd that Jordan can't estimate his arrival with better than two hours precision. But I don't really care enough to call bull**** or wade through an hour of tape. And abiding by the presumption that everything on the internet is bull****, it doesn't really matter.
 
Rigged4Flight said:
You were there. You are familiar with the radio traffic going on at the time of the encounter. And yet you expect us to wade through 2 hours of traffic to get the unedited version of your story.

Yes, I call BS. And I will gladly offer a public apology if you would be so kind as to prove me wrong with a link to the recording and a time on that recording of the incident.
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:rolleyes2: Ok.
 
Lindberg said:
It does seem odd that Jordan can't estimate his arrival with better than two hours precision. But I don't really care enough to call bull**** or wade through an hour of tape. And abiding by the presumption that everything on the internet is bull****, it doesn't really matter.
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I don't care either to search through the tapes. I have a lot more better things to do. It happened a week ago so I don't really remember down exact hour. I flew like 5 hours that day so it all is a blur to me.
 
For the record, I frequently don't pay much attention to what time it is when I make a VFR flight. I fly whenever I can. Why would the time of day within some specified limit be important? Unless you are worried about sunrise/sunset time, I don't get it.

Ernie
 
ebetancourt said:
For the record, I frequently don't pay much attention to what time it is when I make a VFR flight. I fly whenever I can. Why would the time of day within some specified limit be important? Unless you are worried about sunrise/sunset time, I don't get it.

Ernie
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I'm just trying to remember the time so I can look up the archives for LiveATC
 
jordane93 said:
I found it! I did this all for you Rigged4Flight. Skip to 17:30. My mistake the aircraft/drone/RC whatever was at 300ft. It climbed to 600ft and was following me.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfrg/KFRG-Twr1-Apr-26-2015-2030Z.mp3
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Thanks! And for the record: I am sorry I called BS on your story.

Having said that, I should point out that the only person on the radio that said it was a drone did not identify himself, and when asked by Tower whether he was sure, this unidentified person said "I'm not sure if it is but I just wanted just to say that." No one attempted to communicate with a drone. No one saw a drone. The only traffic in the area other than fixed wing that Tower was attempting to talk to around that timeframe were helicopters. But other than that, everything you said was accurate.

Here's the radio exchange.
17:42 Tower: "Hey do you see an aircraft very low like 300' just north of the inner shoreline there just off your left?"
17:46 Jordane: "We'll look for him but as of now I don't see anything."
17:50 Tower: "Yeah it's not traffic for you, I was just wondering what it might be if you saw it. No big deal. Thank you."
17:56 Unknown: "It's a drone"
18:01 Tower: "Is that somebody who's saying that they know it? Cause it wouldn't surprise me."
18:06 Tower: "It does have a transponder though. Although they've gotten pretty sneaky with the drones lately."
18:10 Unknown: "I'm not sure if it is but I just wanted just to say that."
18:14 Tower: "That figures. There actually are a couple groups that fly RC airplanes within the delta but we're not aware of that going on right now. They have to call us before they do it."
18:22 Unknown: "Ha okay that's good."
18:27 Jordane: "If I smack into a drone I'll let you know"
 
Rigged4Flight said:
Thanks! And for the record:I am sorry I called BS on your story.

Having said that, I should point out that the only person on the radio that said it was a drone did not identify himself, and when asked by Tower whether he was sure, this unidentified person said "I'm not sure if it is but I just wanted just to say that." No one attempted to communicate with a drone. No one saw a drone. The only traffic in the area other than fixed wing that Tower was attempting to talk to around that timeframe were helicopters. But other than that, everything you said was accurate.

Here's the radio exchange.
17:42 Tower: "Hey do you see an aircraft very low like 300' just north of the inner shoreline there just off your left?"
17:46 Jordane: "We'll look for him but as of now I don't see anything."
17:50 Tower: "Yeah it's not traffic for you, I was just wondering what it might be if you saw it. No big deal. Thank you."
17:56 Unknown: "It's a drone"
18:01 Tower: "Is that somebody who's saying that they know it? Cause it wouldn't surprise me."
18:06 Tower: "It does have a transponder though. Although they've gotten pretty sneaky with the drones lately."
18:10 Unknown: "I'm not sure if it is but I just wanted just to say that."
18:14 Tower: "That figures. There actually are a couple groups that fly RC airplanes within the delta but we're not aware of that going on right now. They have to call us before they do it."
18:22 Unknown: "Ha okay that's good."
18:27 Jordane: "If I smack into a drone I'll let you know"
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Ok Fellow pilots in the know about this stuff....

How big are these "transponders":dunno:

How are the powered,:dunno: as you know, transponders are the second highest amp draw , next to landing lights......
 
300 feet and not talking to anyone sounds Just as much like a power line inspection than a drone to me.

Ben, I see much bigger draws from electric gear, flaps, and transmitting comm radios than landing lights. Especially with the newer LED landing lights.

Battery powered transponders are sometimes used on gliders. And not all drones are tiny quad copters.
 
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MAKG1 said:
300 feet and not talking to anyone sounds Just as much like a power line inspection than a drone to me.

Ben, I see much bigger draws from electric gear, flaps, and transmitting comm radios than landing lights. Especially with the newer LED landing lights.

Battery powered transponders are sometimes used on gliders. And not all drones are tiny quad copters.
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..

Thanks sir...

I can see heavy loads for the gear flaps and other momentary devices.. And LED's are really changing the landscape for low draw landing lights...

I will google transponders for gliders to see what comes up.... It makes perfect sense though...
 
N801BH said:
Ok Fellow pilots in the know about this stuff....

How big are these "transponders":dunno:

How are the powered,:dunno: as you know, transponders are the second highest amp draw , next to landing lights......
Click to expand...

I have never seen any model aircraft used in the "hobby" that has a transponder. They add weight are expensive and not required under any hobby rules. RC rules and FAA regs preclude their need.
Commercial use is a completely different game where all the FAA regs and rules apply
 
1RTK1 said:
I have never seen any model aircraft used in the "hobby" that has a transponder. They add weight are expensive and not required under any hobby rules. RC rules and FAA regs preclude their need.
Commercial use is a completely different game where all the FAA regs and rules apply
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I only asked since the tower controller claimed it was transponder equipted
 
If it had a transponder it was military or commercially operated.

As mentioned before you can go out and buy a quad copter for as low as $200 dollars. Many of the people that buy them are not affiliated with any club and have no idea of the rules, let along use common sense when flying them. Some of the more expensive ones have sophisticated gps and can have flight plans loaded in them which takes them miles out of sight, line of sight (never exceeding it) is one of the hobbies (AMA's) rules for flight.
 
1RTK1 said:
If it had a transponder it was military or commercially operated.
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No one that saw it either visually or electronically said it was a drone, UAS, UAV, or any other type of unmanned anything.

If it had a transponder, it may have been a UAV, or - I know this is a stretch but just hear me out - maybe it just might have been a helicopter or fixed-wing aircraft with a human inside.

The only reason anyone said anything about drones was because someone got on the radio and made a joke. All of a sudden the sky is falling and everyone's getting triggered by the D word. At least on this forum. On the radio it was a non-event and a moment of levity.

I admit it triggered me as well, but in the opposite direction. I fly as air crew on a plane that is constantly sharing the sky, runways and taxiways with multiple UAVs. We line up and wait, hold short, see-and-avoid, change course and altitude, etc every day among both manned and unmanned aircraft alike. If this was a UAV with a transponder outside of a MOA or other previously announced or restricted airspace, it would have been either in radio contact with ATC or would have had prior approval from ATC for the flight. That's how the military runs any UAV big enough for the tower to have seen a radar return. They are not the boogieman everyone makes them out to be. People get so chicken little over things. It's like tossing a pine cone into a chicken pen and watching all the hens get in an uproar and run for cover.

I should have been a better man than I was, and I shouldn't have just blurted out the BS label. It wasn't nice and it wasn't professional and Jordane didn't deserve to be treated like that. I own that lapse in my personal judgement and decorum. Even on this forum. Please resume your clucking and pay no attention to my teeth grinding in the background.
 
Someone owning up to their mistakes, on a forum? :yikes:

Seriously though, nice show of what people can be capable of since we see it so rarely on here (even in RL!)
 
Velocity173 said:
FAA really needs to get on the ball with all these UAS commercial and model aircraft out there. I'm sick of hearing about near misses and ACs that are advisory and not regulatory. Get something in writing now.
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What would you like them to do? We've had this discussion about laws before...

They're utterly useless to actually stop the behavior of more than a handful who get caught.

Those few have the book thrown at them and it gives some number of folks pause before doing something stupid, but there's a large and growing portion of the population who have no sense of community, no connection to their neighbors, and a significant narcissism streak who'll do it anyway.

Until you fix the underlying morals problem, all FAA can do is say "no" and catch an occasional dummy who does it in such a blatant way, or in a very visible location, that they're easy to scoop up. The technology for remotely flying or even autonomous flying has surpassed the ability to monitor and track it.

How would they "get on the ball"?
 
denverpilot said:
What would you like them to do? We've had this discussion about laws before...

They're utterly useless to actually stop the behavior of more than a handful who get caught.

Those few have the book thrown at them and it gives some number of folks pause before doing something stupid, but there's a large and growing portion of the population who have no sense of community, no connection to their neighbors, and a significant narcissism streak who'll do it anyway.

Until you fix the underlying morals problem, all FAA can do is say "no" and catch an occasional dummy who does it in such a blatant way, or in a very visible location, that they're easy to scoop up. The technology for remotely flying or even autonomous flying has surpassed the ability to monitor and track it.

How would they "get on the ball"?
Click to expand...

1) They need to work closely with law enforcement agencies and get some enforcement action going for those in violation of the law. Same way they've prosecuted laser incidents.

2) They need to work closely with RC model manufacturers and get Public Law 112-95 sec 336 printed in all instruction manuals.

3) They need to get AC 91-57 printed in all RC model instruction manuals.
 
It's fairly trivial for the manufacturers to make these things unable to fly above 500 ft or near airports since there is a GPS and onboard computer.

Many manufacturers already do this for certain locations (eg some drones will just refuse to fly in DC). I suspect we'll see this sort of approach expanded to cover a lot more airspace to try and make these things as idiot proof as feasible. They're too small to be seen by most primary radar and equipping them with transponders isn't really viable for the consumer grade toys as the transponder would cost more than the aircraft.

As for the original post, thanks for the link to the audio. Interesting that the UFO had a transponder. I sort of suspect it was likely a helicopter or other small aircraft rather than a drone (not clear if the guy that said drone was really serious) but regardless the tower said they've had issues.
 
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Rigged4Flight said:
If it had a transponder, it may have been a UAV, or - I know this is a stretch but just hear me out - maybe it just might have been a helicopter or fixed-wing aircraft with a human inside.

I fly as air crew on a plane that is constantly sharing the sky, runways and taxiways with multiple UAVs
.
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Correct, I was only commenting about the hobby side of so called "drones." No one I know of uses transponders in any RC hobby aircraft, they are too expensive and not needed if the rules are followed.
I'm really not that worried about personal UAV's, but you can't stop some idiot from doing something stupid.

I had a good friend that flew UAV's in Iraq and Afghanistan for a few years, they were much more expensive and sophisticated than any hobby aircraft made.

By the way, that video I posted is of a 40% scale model of the full sized aircraft. I fly a couple just like that, although not quite as low or as well...
 
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Velocity173 said:
1) They need to work closely with law enforcement agencies and get some enforcement action going for those in violation of the law. Same way they've prosecuted laser incidents.



2) They need to work closely with RC model manufacturers and get Public Law 112-95 sec 336 printed in all instruction manuals.



3) They need to get AC 91-57 printed in all RC model instruction manuals.
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Mmmm ok. I see one action that may have some impact (local LE education), and two actions that are the same as printing tags for mattresses.

Better than I expected, actually.

The laser stuff: Only a handful actually caught compared to the numbers reported. Getting the local media in a frenzy when it happens has probably had more long term effect on that particular stupidity than anything LE has done.

The ideal of actually catching the idiots is pretty rare. That sheriff helo video, where the supreme doofus was lasing an LE helicopter while they guided ground units to his location, was probably the most public media clip for that particular problem.

Shown by the media and they're omnipresent "airplanes are dangerous and here's something that will make them moreso" is a double edged sword.
 
denverpilot said:
Mmmm ok. I see one action that may have some impact (local LE education), and two actions that are the same as printing tags for mattresses.

Better than I expected, actually.

The laser stuff: Only a handful actually caught compared to the numbers reported. Getting the local media in a frenzy when it happens has probably had more long term effect on that particular stupidity than anything LE has done.

The ideal of actually catching the idiots is pretty rare. That sheriff helo video, where the supreme doofus was lasing an LE helicopter while they guided ground units to his location, was probably the most public media clip for that particular problem.

Shown by the media and they're omnipresent "airplanes are dangerous and here's something that will make them moreso" is a double edged sword.
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Drones will continue to be a trivial problem... till one brings down an aircraft and causes loss of life......:sad::sad:

Then, ALL hell will break out...... And it ain't gonna be pretty...:no:
 
denverpilot said:
Mmmm ok. I see one action that may have some impact (local LE education), and two actions that are the same as printing tags for mattresses.

Better than I expected, actually.

The laser stuff: Only a handful actually caught compared to the numbers reported. Getting the local media in a frenzy when it happens has probably had more long term effect on that particular stupidity than anything LE has done.

The ideal of actually catching the idiots is pretty rare. That sheriff helo video, where the supreme doofus was lasing an LE helicopter while they guided ground units to his location, was probably the most public media clip for that particular problem.

Shown by the media and they're omnipresent "airplanes are dangerous and here's something that will make them moreso" is a double edged sword.
Click to expand...
I had a green laser incident at one point, where the offender kept lighting up any airplane he had line of sight of. I narrowed down his EXACT location to the HOUSE address (absolutely 100% positive it was that house, after all it's a damn laser that is a direct shot) and gave it to ATC. He did this for over a hour. They could have easily rolled up with a squad car during this time and nailed the guy..but no. I called law enforcement after landing to followup and after about three hours they finally sent an officer to talk to me.

I waited DAYS and they didn't attempt to go to the house. Finally did an interview with local media who aired it and talked to the FAA. That did the trick, with local law enforcement finally investigating four to five days later along with the FAA. Of course at that point the people at the address didn't "know anyone with a laser".

About a week later someone else lasered a police chopper in Omaha. That of course resulted in all of the squad cars in the region instantly coming down on the offender followed by an arrest.

Really I didn't expect them to make an arrest - mostly I wanted them to scare whoever lived there and bring attention to the issue so that others would stop being stupid with their lasers. I got that result..it just took some complaining and time.
 
Let's see...

A citizen is placed in danger by some honyock with a laser and he can't even get the cops out of the donut shop to take a look.

But let the same thing happen to a police aircraft and every cop within 100 miles shows up.

Protect their own, but couldn't care less about citizens, color me surprised.
 
timwinters said:
Let's see...

A citizen is placed in danger by some honyock with a laser and he can't even get the cops out of the donut shop to take a look.

But let the same thing happen to a police aircraft and every cop within 100 miles shows up.

Protect their own, but couldn't care less about citizens, color me surprised.
Click to expand...


And it's only going to get worse....:mad2::mad2::mad:
 
jesse said:
I had a green laser incident at one point, where the offender kept lighting up any airplane he had line of sight of. I narrowed down his EXACT location to the HOUSE address (absolutely 100% positive it was that house, after all it's a damn laser that is a direct shot) and gave it to ATC. He did this for over a hour. They could have easily rolled up with a squad car during this time and nailed the guy..but no. I called law enforcement after landing to followup and after about three hours they finally sent an officer to talk to me.

I waited DAYS and they didn't attempt to go to the house. Finally did an interview with local media who aired it and talked to the FAA. That did the trick, with local law enforcement finally investigating four to five days later along with the FAA. Of course at that point the people at the address didn't "know anyone with a laser".

About a week later someone else lasered a police chopper in Omaha. That of course resulted in all of the squad cars in the region instantly coming down on the offender followed by an arrest.

Really I didn't expect them to make an arrest - mostly I wanted them to scare whoever lived there and bring attention to the issue so that others would stop being stupid with their lasers. I got that result..it just took some complaining and time.
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That's crazy. People are morons.
 
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