Interesting Checkride Question

[AggieMike88]

Working through an Oral Exam prep, this question was presented about inoperative equipment:

"Can you take off if the cigarette lighter on the aircraft is broken?"

I'll see what you guys say as an answer and the ensuing discussion before I reveal what the prep course said is the answer and the add on information.

 

[James331]

NEF item I'd say?

Is it on the MEL?

Take it were talking pt91?



For a pt 91 bugs smasher with no MEL, I'd say placard and deactivate/remove it with approximate logbook entries.


Of course the most correct answer is "it was working when I took off"

 

[AggieMike88]

Yes. Ride in question will be Part 91.

What is NEF?

 

[James331]

Non Essential Furnishings

http://www.nbaa.org/ops/maint/inoperative-equipment/nonessential-equipment-furnishings.php

It doesn't apply to your pt91 ride though

 

[murphey]

Depends if any other part of the electrical system depends on the lighter outlet.

 

[flyingron]

Depends what you mean by broke. I'd certainly want to make sure I didn't have a overly fused (or even in some cases unfused) wire that may start cooking away in flight. There are ADs about this

 

[CTLSi]

Working through an Oral Exam prep, this question was presented about inoperative equipment:

"Can you take off if the cigarette lighter on the aircraft is broken?"

I'll see what you guys say as an answer and the ensuing discussion before I reveal what the prep course said is the answer and the add on information.

It's a trick question. You are not allowed to smoke in a cockpit. There are no cig lighters, they are charging points for a cell phone or a laptop. And unless it's listed under the MEL (min equipment list) and required equipment for day/night flight you can fly with it broken.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

It's a trick question. You are not allowed to smoke in a cockpit. There are no cig lighters, they are charging points for a cell phone or a laptop. And unless it's listed under the MEL (min equipment list) and required equipment for day/night flight you can fly with it broken.

.....and what are those little things that look deceptively like ashtrays?

 

[tsts4]

It's a trick question. You are not allowed to smoke in a cockpit.

You got a reference for that?

 

[Zeldman]

It's a trick question. You are not allowed to smoke in a cockpit. There are no cig lighters, they are charging points for a cell phone or a laptop. And unless it's listed under the MEL (min equipment list) and required equipment for day/night flight you can fly with it broken.

Is there a specific FAR stating that you can't smoke in your personally owned aircraft while flying part 91?

Charging points, I can understand. My airplanes have AC power so the crew brings their chargers.

 

[CTLSi]

Here is a discussion of smoking and safety issues for aviation:

http://www.flightsafety.org/asw/jan09/asw_jan09_p31-34.pdf?dl=1

 

[tsts4]

Here is a discussion of smoking and safety issues for aviation:

http://www.flightsafety.org/asw/jan09/asw_jan09_p31-34.pdf?dl=1

OK, not smart but where is it prohibited? And remember that particular question was more than likely written years before the advent of portable electrical devices for cockpit use.

 

[warthog1984]

It's a trick question. You are not allowed to smoke in a cockpit. There are no cig lighters

I've been in more than 1 airplane with a working cig lighter; heating element and all.

 

[LoneAspen]

"Can you take off if the cigarette lighter on the aircraft is broken?"

I suppose it depends on if you're in Colorado or not.

 

[JoeSelch]

It's a trick question. You are not allowed to smoke in a cockpit. ...

Wrong. Again.

 

[NJP_MAN]

Of course the most correct answer is "it was working when I took off"

 

[poadeleted20]

14 CFR 91.213 is pretty clear -- if it isn't working, you have to go through the inoperative equipment process before flying.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may take off an aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment installed unless the following conditions are met:

Since what you're flying falls within 91.213(d), that's the route you take. To make that long story short, since the cigarette lighter isn't required equipment under any regulation, AFM/POH, or AD for your 182, you can either remove it or deactivate it and placard it INOP and then go fly legally. However, you cannot just ignore it and go fly legally without going through the process.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

It's a trick question. You are not allowed to smoke in a cockpit.

I've seen the local news helicopter pilot light up a Marlboro in the chopper. While I was hot fueling it no less. He use to fly Hueys and is probably one of the scariest guys I know. You can go tell him to put it out

Never seen a reg that says you can't smoke in your own plane.

14 CFR 91.213 is pretty clear -- if it isn't working, you have to go through the inoperative equipment process before flying.
Since what you're flying falls within 91.213(d), that's the route you take. To make that long story short, since the cigarette lighter isn't required equipment under any regulation, AFM/POH, or AD for your 182, you can either remove it or deactivate it and placard it INOP and then go fly legally. However, you cannot just ignore it and go fly legally without going through the process.

This. I'd say a nice cork with an INOP sticker ought to do the trick! If you do that, take a picture and post it here.

 

[poadeleted20]

Never seen a reg that says you can't smoke in your own plane.

Try 14 CFR 91.9. My plane has an AFM-required "NO SMOKING" placard. So, smoking in my plane is violating the placarded restriction and thus a violation of 91.9.

 

[Matthew]

Sounds like I need to start preflighting my cigarette lighter outlet, if my rental even has one.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Try 14 CFR 91.9. My plane has an AFM-required "NO SMOKING" placard. So, smoking in my plane is violating the placarded restriction and thus a violation of 91.9.

91.9 doesn't have the word smoking anywhere in it. What your aircraft manufacturer says is a different story.

 

[nimdabew]

.....and what are those little things that look deceptively like ashtrays?

Coin holders for the toll booth.

 

[AggieMike88]

14 CFR 91.213 is pretty clear -- if it isn't working, you have to go through the inoperative equipment process before flying.

I knew you would provide the correct answer.

The creator of the prep course said that most students get the answer wrong because they are thinking of the question in the sense "is the lighter a required item like a radio, generator, or altimeter?" So they answer "yes, you can take off".

The question is meant to quiz you on 91.213. Per the questions discussion, the bad lighter, being permanently installed on the airframe, makes the aircraft unairworthy per the strict interpretation of the rules until a mechanic renders it fully INOP, placards it, and makes the appropriate logbook entry.

Does everyone do this 100% of the time? Maybe not. But that's not the intent of the original question.

Anyhow, MY intent was to share an interesting scenario based way of quizzing you on the rules about inoperative equipment. And because this was posed in an interesting manner, it's a detail and rule I am ow unlikely to forget.

 

[mrkbbd]

Going back to the "No Smoking" comment - if you personally add the placard (not required by the manufacturer), do you violate 91.9 by smoking, or does it have to be a placard required by the manufacturer? How about those new e-cigarettes, how do those fit in to this?

 

[Z06_Mir]

It's a trick question. You are not allowed to smoke in a cockpit. There are no cig lighters, they are charging points for a cell phone or a laptop. And unless it's listed under the MEL (min equipment list) and required equipment for day/night flight you can fly with it broken.

I'm pretty sure when my plane rolled out of Cessna in 1981 they didn't intend for that electric outlet to charge a portable phone or a computer, but rather light a cigarette.

 

[Jaybird180]

I knew you would provide the correct answer.

The creator of the prep course said that most students get the answer wrong because they are thinking of the question in the sense "is the lighter a required item like a radio, generator, or altimeter?" So they answer "yes, you can take off".

The question is meant to quiz you on 91.213. Per the questions discussion, the bad lighter, being permanently installed on the airframe, makes the aircraft unairworthy per the strict interpretation of the rules until a mechanic renders it fully INOP, placards it, and makes the appropriate logbook entry.

Does everyone do this 100% of the time? Maybe not. But that's not the intent of the original question.

Anyhow, MY intent was to share an interesting scenario based way of quizzing you on the rules about inoperative equipment. And because this was posed in an interesting manner, it's a detail and rule I am ow unlikely to forget.

Wondering if we can just skip to the good part:

"(4) A determination is made by a pilot, who is certificated and appropriately rated under part 61 of this chapter, or by a person, who is certificated and appropriately rated to perform maintenance on the aircraft, that the inoperative instrument or equipment does not constitute a hazard to the aircraft. An aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment as provided in paragraph (d) of this section is considered to be in a properly altered condition acceptable to the Administrator."

 

[MAKG1]

I'm pretty sure when my plane rolled out of Cessna in 1981 they didn't intend for that electric outlet to charge a portable phone or a computer, but rather light a cigarette.

I didn't think you were THAT young.

There were 12V electrical devices in 1981. Including 120V AC inverters, so you could plug in anything that didn't blow the fuse.

Common uses were portable or mobile radios, coffee warmers, and in cars, radar detectors.

 

[MAKG1]

Wondering if we can just skip to the good part:

"(4) A determination is made by a pilot, who is certificated and appropriately rated under part 61 of this chapter, or by a person, who is certificated and appropriately rated to perform maintenance on the aircraft, that the inoperative instrument or equipment does not constitute a hazard to the aircraft. An aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment as provided in paragraph (d) of this section is considered to be in a properly altered condition acceptable to the Administrator."

I've no doubt there are pilots who think they can make that determination.

The truth is, you cannot possibly determine if a cigarette lighter is a hazard without removing it. There could very easily be a hot wire flopping around, which is an electrical fire risk.

 

[poadeleted20]

91.9 doesn't have the word smoking anywhere in it. What your aircraft manufacturer says is a different story.

91.9 doesn't say no intentional spins, or no flight beyond 3.8g's I the Normal category, or anything else like that, either, but it is the reg you violate if you do any of that in my plane. What it does say is you have to obey any "approved" placards, and "NO SMOKING" is an FAA-approved placard in my plane, so smoking in my plane violates 91.9.

 

[poadeleted20]

Going back to the "No Smoking" comment - if you personally add the placard (not required by the manufacturer), do you violate 91.9 by smoking, or does it have to be a placard required by the manufacturer? How about those new e-cigarettes, how do those fit in to this?

Here's the reg:

Sec. 91.9

Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.

So, if it's not an FAA-approved placard, it does not carry the 91.9 force of law.

 

[petrolero]

Sounds like I need to start preflighting my cigarette lighter outlet, if my rental even has one.

Looks like I'll have to fix or placard my lighter that doesn't work. I live in Colorado so maybe I'll take up smoking as a preflight checklist item.

 

[flyingron]

My private checkride was done by a pipe smoking examiner, complete with him opening the window to shake the ash and dottle out.

 

[PPC1052]

Per the questions discussion, the bad lighter, being permanently installed on the airframe, makes the aircraft unairworthy per the strict interpretation of the rules until a mechanic renders it fully INOP, placards it, and makes the appropriate logbook entry.

A slight nit to pick. I don't think the inop cigar lighter makes the aircraft "un-airworthy." If it did, just placarding it wouldn't make it legal. The case law/regs have to components to the term airworthy: 1) in conformity with the type certificate, and 2) in a condition for safe operation.

91.213 just says what you must do to operate with inoperable equipment that does not render the aircraft un-airworthy.

But otherwise, I agree, you must placard and disable or remove, etc. as per 91.213.

 

[AggieMike88]

Regardless of the nits picked, picked on, or accuracy of said nit in the question... I still think it's an interesting way to ask the question about the topic of 91.213.... The "story" of it will help me remember the main points of the FAR.

Reviewed today a video discussing the methods of learning in the FOI. Questions like this are a good way of probing Application and Correlation, and get beyond Rote regurgitation.

 

[poadeleted20]

A slight nit to pick. I don't think the inop cigar lighter makes the aircraft "un-airworthy." If it did, just placarding it wouldn't make it legal. The case law/regs have to components to the term airworthy: 1) in conformity with the type certificate, and 2) in a condition for safe operation.

If anything isn't working, the aircraft is no longer in conformity with its type certificate, and is thus unairworthy -- that's fundamental. However, 91.213 makes clear that this process does in fact take care of the unairworthiness of the aircraft:

An aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment as provided in paragraph (d) of this section is considered to be in a properly altered condition acceptable to the Administrator.

91.213 just says what you must do to operate with inoperable equipment that does not render the aircraft un-airworthy.

91.213(d) says rather more than that. However..

But otherwise, I agree, you must placard and disable or remove, etc. as per 91.213.

...and the reason you must do that is the aircraft is not legally airworthy until you do, and by doing so, put it "in a properly altered condition acceptable to the Administrator" thus making it again airworthy.

 

[PPC1052]

If anything isn't working, the aircraft is no longer in conformity with its type certificate,

Is that really true when the item in question isn't a required item on the required equipment list?

 

[PPC1052]

...and the reason you must do that is the aircraft is not legally airworthy until you do, and by doing so, put it "in a properly altered condition acceptable to the Administrator" thus making it again airworthy.

I see where you are going. But is there a reg or statute that equates, or relates "properly altered condition" with airworthy? I am not aware of one.

91.213 doesn't use the term "airworthy." It just says you can't operate unless all of the equipment is working, unless you meet the various exceptions.

At the end of the day, this argument is largely semantic. The practical answer is you aren't legal to fly with the broken cigar lighter unless you placard and disable, regardless if the reason is that it's not "airworthy" or the reason is that it has "inoperative instruments or equipment."

 

[poadeleted20]

Is that really true when the item in question isn't a required item on the required equipment list?

Yes, it really is true. That's why a) they wrote 91.213, and b) they stuck in the last line about the aircraft being in an approved altered condition once you've done the 91.213 process.

 

[poadeleted20]

I see where you are going. But is there a reg or statute that equates, or relates "properly altered condition" with airworthy? I am not aware of one.

91.213 doesn't use the term "airworthy." It just says you can't operate unless all of the equipment is working, unless you meet the various exceptions.

At the end of the day, this argument is largely semantic. The practical answer is you aren't legal to fly with the broken cigar lighter unless you placard and disable, regardless if the reason is that it's not "airworthy" or the reason is that it has "inoperative instruments or equipment."

The term "airworthy" is not defined in the regulations, but it has been defined in AC's, interpretation letters, and other guidance as meaning two things:

1. The aircraft conforms to its type certificate design or approved altered state.
2. The aircraft is in condition for safe flight.

The logic, as the FAA has explained it, is that everything installed is part of the type certificate design or an approved alteration to the type certificate design. Since it was working when built/installed, it must continue to work in order for it to continue to comply with its TC or approved altered condition. If something isn't working properly, the aircraft no longer conforms to that standard, and is thus unairworthy.

In years past, that created a problem since your aircraft would be technically unairworthy if, say, the cigarette lighter didn't work even though it wasn't really necessary. The FAA realized the silliness of having to get FAA approval for any little unimportant item not working, and they developed 91.213 as a way for us to fly safely and legally with something not working right. Most importantly, they wrote that last line so your airplane would be legal to fly with something inoperative but without further FAA involvement once you completed the process specified in 91.213.

The reason that the term "airworthy" is important in this discussion is that 91.7(a) prohibits flight in an unairworthy condition. The good news is that once you do complete the 91.213 process, your aircraft is once again "airworthy" (i.e., in an approved altered condition) so you are not violating 91.7(a).

 

[PPC1052]

The term "airworthy" is not defined in the regulations, but it has been defined in AC's, interpretation letters, and other guidance as meaning two things:

1. The aircraft conforms to its type certificate design or approved altered state.
2. The aircraft is in condition for safe flight.

Yeah, I know. You quoted me saying exactly that. (Well, almost. I left out the part that said that airworthy isn't expressly defined by the regulations)

The logic, as the FAA has explained it, is that everything installed is part of the type certificate design or an approved alteration to the type certificate design.

Except I don't think that's (the underlined portion) true. Can you show me where the FAA has stated that? For a counter example, attached is the Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) for my plane, a C177B. It lists required equipment. Cigar lighter isn't anywhere on there. So, whether there is a cigar lighter or not is irrelevant to whether it complies with the type certificate. I do have a factory installed cigar lighter, even though its not shown on the TCDS.

FAA order 8110.4C mandates that the TCDS show required equipment. From order 8110.4C:

(24) Equipment.

​

(a) Use the following statement: “The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations (see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification.”

(b) List the additional or special equipment found necessary for type certification, and the exceptions to the prescribed minimum equipment. List alternates to equipment found necessary for certification. Do not list on the TCDS the optional items of equipment, except engines and propellers for which the aircraft manufacturer gets approval. Show the equipment list supplied by the manufacturer with each aircraft. (emphasis added.)​

​

So, if a cigar lighter is required equipment, its got to be on the TCDS. But its not listed as required equipment, and its not required under FAR 23, which is the certification basis for my plane. I don't see how anyone can claim that the cigar lighter is required by the type certificate. And if its not required by the type certificate, and its condition has nothing to do with the safe operation of the aircraft, then its inop condition doesn't make the airplane not "airworthy."

But it is equipment that is inoperable under 91.213. Thus, you can't take off without following those requirements to placard and deactivate.

If an item is required under the type certificate, then if it is not functioning, it would not be in compliance with the type certificate, the aircraft would be "unairworthy," and you can't just placard it and go.

Understand, the above is just me trying to noodle this out, and I am just trying to pick your brain. We come at this from different perspectives, and you probably deal with this more than I ever do. So, I don't pretend know more about this than you.