Interesting Checkride Question

[poadeleted20]

...everything installed is part of the type certificate design or an approved alteration to the type certificate design.

Except I don't think that's (the underlined portion) true. Can you show me where the FAA has stated that?

I could if I took the time to find it somewhere in the NPRM for the original version of 91.213. I just don't feel like it today. But that is fundamental to why they put that regulation in there, especially that last line I quoted about the approved altered conditions.

For a counter example, attached is the Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) for my plane, a C177B. It lists required equipment. Cigar lighter isn't anywhere on there. So, whether there is a cigar lighter or not is irrelevant to whether it complies with the type certificate. I do have a factory installed cigar lighter, even though its not shown on the TCDS.

The TCDS is not the complete type design, just a summary of data applicable to the type. You'd have to go to the Aircraft Certification Office to get the full type design data. But the FAA really does take the position that an aircraft isn't airworthy unless either a) everything installed in it works or b) anything that doesn't work has been dealt with IAW 91.213.

 

[PPC1052]

You'd have to go to the Aircraft Certification Office to get the full type design data.

I recognize that there is a distinction between the TC and the TCDS. But the FAA order 8110.4C states that all required equipment is to be included there on the TCDS.

But the FAA really does take the position that an aircraft isn't airworthy unless either a) everything installed in it works or b) anything that doesn't work has been dealt with IAW 91.213.

I would like to see that if you have the time to find it. It seems contrary to the regs, etc. But that certainly wouldn't be the first time the FAA took such a position.

 

[poadeleted20]

I recognize that there is a distinction between the TC and the TCDS. But the FAA order 8110.4C states that all required equipment is to be included there on the TCDS.

Irrelevant. 91.213(d) doesn't say it applies only to "required equipment". Neither does the type design include only the "required equipment".

I would like to see that if you have the time to find it. It seems contrary to the regs, etc.

Can you show me a regulation that says and aircraft need only have the required equipment working in order to be airworthy? Or that the type design includes only the required equipment?

Seriously, I just don't care enough to do the research on this one. If you need a better answer, ask an FAA Airworthiness Inspector, who probably learned the specific citation in training at the Academy.

 

[PPC1052]

The term "airworthy" is not defined in the regulations,

As an aside, that is actually not true. See, 14 C.F.R. § 3.5(a)

 

[PPC1052]

Irrelevant. 91.213(d) doesn't say it applies only to "required equipment".

Agreed. And I didn't suggest otherwise. In fact, I stated the opposite. But given that it applies to all inoperative equipment, it doesn't necessarily follow that an aircraft must be unairworthy without placarding, etc.

 

[PPC1052]

Can you show me a regulation that says and aircraft need only have the required equipment working in order to be airworthy?

The term airworthy means "the aircraft conforms

to its type design and is in a condition for safe operation." 14 CFR 3.5 If the aircraft has all required equipment operational, then under the plain meaning of the words, it "conforms." A perfectly reasonable construction of this language is that non-required equipment would be irrelevant to "conformity." Otherwise, it would be "required." Don't get misunderstand me. I am not claiming that this is correct. I am just answering your question. If there is authority that rejects this interpretation, I am not aware of it. Maybe you are.

If it were otherwise, wouldn't a crack in my Royalite headliner ground my plane?​

 

[poadeleted20]

As an aside, that is actually not true. See, 14 C.F.R. § 3.5(a)

Thanks!

Airworthy means the aircraft conforms to its type design and is in a condition for safe operation.

Yup -- "conforms to its type design", which includes a lot more than what's in the TCDS. So, there is regulatory basis for this.

 

[poadeleted20]

The term airworthy means "the aircraft conforms to its type design and is in a condition for safe operation." 14 CFR 3.5 If the aircraft has all required equipment operational, then under the plain meaning of the words, it "conforms." A perfectly reasonable construction of this language is that non-required equipment would be irrelevant to "conformity." Otherwise, it would be "required."

I don't follow that. Either it's part of the design or not, and the regulation says "conforms to its type design," not "has all required equipment operational". The fact that the regulations didn't require that it be part of the design doesn't change the fact that it is part of the design as approved by the FAA (and if wasn't approved, it would not be authorized to be there).

 

[Old Geek]

It's a trick question. You are not allowed to smoke in a cockpit. There are no cig lighters, they are charging points for a cell phone or a laptop. And unless it's listed under the MEL (min equipment list) and required equipment for day/night flight you can fly with it broken.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Please....

 

[Marauder]

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Please....

Ain't going to happen...