interested in ownership? am I out of my league?

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hyphen81

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hyphen81
Is it possible to get into an ownership situation for around $250 per month? Would the aircraft you could get at that monthly payment be a clunker? With the maintenance that goes into keeping an aircraft in good condition, what is a safe amount to factor in to cover normal and reasonable maintenance?

I realize this question has a lot of ins and outs, and may be somewhat vague, but I'd love to know about your personal experience in ownership and if my budget is way off base.

My normal mission would probably be about 80% flying locally, sightseeing, and a $100 burger, but I'd like to also use the plane to fly to the coast (Tennessee to Florida), as my wife and I enjoy going to the beach, and have relatives there.

I would be looking for something simple, as I'm still working on my PPL, and am doing all my flying in a 172. I'm just trying to get an idea of what I'm in for to try and keep this dream alive.

I've already priced out a flying club here locally, which would come out to about $300 a month wet to fly 2 hours/mo. I'd love to fly more than that, and am considering ownership as a possible way to accomplish that, but I'm just scratching the surface on what that would entail.

I'm not opposed to owning with a few other people, which I think would be best case scenario. I just don't know of anyone in my area yet.

ok, you may now commence poking holes in my dreams. :wink2:
 
You'll need partners. Also, you'll need to be prepared for "unexpected" expenses.

Does $250 include gas, or just the fixed costs?
 
Not trying to rain on your parade, $250 a month isn't even in the ballpark. Figure $10-15,000/year to own and fly a light simple single like a 172 or Cherokee. For a full analysis of where I got those numbers, send me an email (and only an email -- no posts, PM's, phone calls, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves) and I'll send you back a paper I wrote detailing what's involved in owning a plane like that.
 
I like to use ESP thought waves.
 
Dans2992 - Ok, I was kind of figuring I'd need partners anyway. I was thinking $250 as the fixed cost, not fuel.

Ron - I'll email you on that. I'd definitely like to learn all I can.


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hyphen81 said:
Is it possible to get into an ownership situation for around $250 per month? Would the aircraft you could get at that monthly payment be a clunker? With the maintenance that goes into keeping an aircraft in good condition, what is a safe amount to factor in to cover normal and reasonable maintenance?

I realize this question has a lot of ins and outs, and may be somewhat vague, but I'd love to know about your personal experience in ownership and if my budget is way off base.

My normal mission would probably be about 80% flying locally, sightseeing, and a $100 burger, but I'd like to also use the plane to fly to the coast (Tennessee to Florida), as my wife and I enjoy going to the beach, and have relatives there.

I would be looking for something simple, as I'm still working on my PPL, and am doing all my flying in a 172. I'm just trying to get an idea of what I'm in for to try and keep this dream alive.

I've already priced out a flying club here locally, which would come out to about $300 a month wet to fly 2 hours/mo. I'd love to fly more than that, and am considering ownership as a possible way to accomplish that, but I'm just scratching the surface on what that would entail.

I'm not opposed to owning with a few other people, which I think would be best case scenario. I just don't know of anyone in my area yet.

ok, you may now commence poking holes in my dreams. :wink2:
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Depends on many things. If you live where hangars are cheap, for considerably less than $3000 a year you could share an "inexpensive" airplane with 2-3 people. A partnership divides all the fixed costs by the number of owners but the operating (hourly) costs often go up slightly.

Something that burns 3 gal/hr and costs less than $20k could be that affordable, especially if you and your partners performed as much of the maintenance as possible. But even with 3 partners, a 172 is probably going to cost more than that and if you're stuck with a "high rent" airport you might have to pay most of that $3000 for a tiedown.

One thing you may not realize is that owning is rarely cheaper than renting, especially if you're only flying a few hours/month.
 
So then, probably a flying club is the best I'm going to do....that's a bummer.

I could afford more than $250 a month, right now I'm paying $700 a month for flight training, but that's a limited time thing so it feels less painful. to imagine spending that kind of dough for 15 or 20 years makes me a bit nauseous. But maybe I could afford more than $250. Just trying to keep it conservative. I suppose if I want to keep it conservative I should pick up knitting...that's probably pretty cheap. Needles...yarn...how much could it be? although, I run the risk of falling asleep from the boredom and stabbing myself in the eye (that's the leading cause of death for knitters)..

How hard is it to find people for a joint ownership venture? Is that like, a few and far between situation? I would imagine it is..



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Our Cherokee 180 ran about that in fixed costs, plus about $40/hr (+/-).
Now we could have reduced the fixed cost by changing insurance coverage, keeping it somewhere cheaper, etc. But we chose to insure it properly, and keep it close to home. Another thing we did was to fix what needed fixing before it got expensive to fix. which kept annual cost down. But actually had no real effect on the fixed cost. As fixing things costs something. But prevents the surprize $2k annual.

Actually the cost of ownership is a variable. Even with the same airplane. Depending on location, insurance coverage, A&P/IA fees, hangar, or tie-down, and myriad other things.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not trying to rain on your parade, $250 a month isn't even in the ballpark. Figure $10-15,000/year to own and fly a light simple single like a 172 or Cherokee. For a full analysis of where I got those numbers, send me an email (and only an email -- no posts, PM's, phone calls, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves) and I'll send you back a paper I wrote detailing what's involved in owning a plane like that.
Click to expand...

That's exceptionally high numbers for a Cherokee or 172 unless you're flying several hundred hours a year or have a serious fuel leak.

You can easily operate a Cherokee 75 hours a year or so for 1/2 to 1/3 of that.

I operated my bonanza out of Signature for 100hrs on less than that. With plenty of unexpected MX and some updates.
 
For that much, just rent. Otherwise your going to fly junk.
 
Find two partners to go in on a 172 or Cherokee 180. $250 should cover your monthly fixed share (unless you carry a note on the plane).
 
weilke said:
Find two partners to go in on a 172 or Cherokee 180. $250 should cover your monthly fixed share (unless you carry a note on the plane).
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$250 should be split 2-3 ways on one of those.
 
hyphen81 said:
I suppose if I want to keep it conservative I should pick up knitting...that's probably pretty cheap. Needles...yarn...how much could it be? although, I run the risk of falling asleep from the boredom and stabbing myself in the eye (that's the leading cause of death for knitters)..
Click to expand...

Now that's funny :lol:
 
weilke said:
Find two partners to go in on a 172 or Cherokee 180. $250 should cover your monthly fixed share (unless you carry a note on the plane).
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Chances are if the monthly fixed cost budget is $250, the purchase price will need to be financed.
 
A decent equipped Cherokee 140 can be had for around $35-40k with a mid-time engine. Same with a 172 but maybe a little more for it.

20 year note is about $200 a month if you put 5k down at 6%.

If you find a partner, even with the note, you can be around $300 a month + fuel. $100 each month on the note, split a $45 a month tie down fee, split the insurance (let's say $60 a month for your share), and split the annual (let's say $1500 yearly at $75 a month for your sure; Cherokees are usually cheap to annual). Try to do as much of your own maintenance as you can.

Put away $10 an hour besides fuel costs for other maintenance besides the already accounted for annual because things will always come up when it goes into the shop.

Now, if you have major engine problems, all bets are off, but it's doable.
 
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I consider my ownership situation to be a quite far towards the cheap end of the scale for a sole ownership.
My total fixed costs (hangar, insurance, tax, typical maintenance expenses) come to about $500/month. Then if I want to fly, it's $35/hr on top of that.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not trying to rain on your parade, $250 a month isn't even in the ballpark. Figure $10-15,000/year to own and fly a light simple single like a 172 or Cherokee. For a full analysis of where I got those numbers, send me an email (and only an email -- no posts, PM's, phone calls, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves) and I'll send you back a paper I wrote detailing what's involved in owning a plane like that.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

I added up my expenses, and it ended up being around 16K last year in my mooney. I flew around 60 hrs or so. No major expenses, but a few minor squawks and maintenance issues. This includes insurance, hangar, annual, IFR certification, garmin updates etc. you'd be surprised at how much stuff can hit your wallet.
 
Its just like buying a car, if you want one with all the bells and whistles you are going to pay for it. But if you want a basic VFR machine it can be done. I bought a 1964 172 with a 0 time engine for less than $30K but it needed interior work and a good waxing. My budget to own it was $500 a month, that was insurance, hangar and payment. I offset that by letting a friend use it for training.
 
My first plane was a Cherokee 180D. Me & a partner each put in $300 a month and that was plenty. Eventually we needed a new engine and it was 10K each. In todays dollars figure $350 a month (with a partner) dry. With gas, you'll be spending close to what your spending now.

Good news: you'll have airplane keys in your pocket. It's a good feeling. Worth it to me, YMMV.

Bad news: eventually the mechanic is going to call and tell you to write a 5 figure check (or card or loan). Make sure you can handle it.
 
Bonchie said:
A decent equipped Cherokee 140 can be had for around $35-40k with a mid-time engine. Same with a 172 but maybe a little more for it.



20 year note is about $200 a month if you put 5k down at 6%.



If you find a partner, even with the note, you can be around $300 a month + fuel. $100 each month on the note, split a $45 a month tie down fee, split the insurance (let's say $60 a month for your share), and split the annual (let's say $1500 yearly at $75 a month for your sure; Cherokees are usually cheap to annual). Try to do as much of your own maintenance as you can.



Put away $10 an hour besides fuel costs for other maintenance besides the already accounted for annual because things will always come up when it goes into the shop.



Now, if you have major engine problems, all bets are off, but it's doable.
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What's the fuel burn on a Cherokee 140?

So if I'm thinking about this correctly....in a shared ownership situation, let's say I'm paying $300 a month just for the "privilege" to own the plane, then we'll say I'm paying $55 an hour for fuel (9 gals x $6/gal). Plus the $10 an hour you mentioned for random maintenance, so we'll round up to $70 / hour to actually fly it. By my calculations, 6 hours per month is the point where owning outruns the flying club. Starting to look less appealing by the minute...

On the bright side, I bought a lottery ticket, so I'm just sort of waiting for that to pan out.. ;)


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From the answers so far I would say your wishing in one hand and s$&$ing in the other to see which fills up first. I think your cutting it way to close for a realistic outcome. Save more money.
 
hyphen81 said:
By my calculations, 6 hours per month is the point where owning outruns the flying club. Starting to look less appealing by the minute...
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You will find that once you own a share, you will fly more. The $250 is just gone at the beginning of the month, when you want to go flying, the only cost you are going to think about is the fuel. In a 2 or 3-way partnership, the plane will be pretty much available any time you want and you can take it for a 1 or 2 week trip which is not an option with rentals and tends to be difficult with club planes.

Most partnerships either rotate 'priority weeks' or they come up with a schedule for the year. During 'your' week, you can do with the plane what you want and if someone else wants to fly, they have to coordinate with you. 1:2 or 1:3 is almost as good as sole ownership for the day to day operation. If you have situations where you would need to relocate the plane for 2-3 weeks at a time several times a year, sole ownership is the only reasonable option.
 
I have a 1976 Piper Warrior and I budget $300/mo. $110 for an open t-hanger, $60 for insurance. I think that $250/mo is doable, not counting gas. A big deal finding an AP/AI that you can trust and work with. Someone that will let you do some of the work under his guidance. Owner assisted annuals are a big help. Try and find an independent. But Ron is correct in that you need to have a reserve fund for the unexpected. A good partner is great but if you have to have one to afford a plane I would suggest that you should not buy a plane
 
Hi Jon.

I spend $224/mo for a hangar. If you tie down, you can get by cheaper, but plan on spending time to wash/wax the airplane a couple times a year, minimum. Also, you need a good canopy cover. Based on my experience, the $250/mo is not enough. If you figure about double that, you will be in the ballpark for a simple, fixed-gear airplane barring having to fund a new engine. There are a lot of threads in here talking about cost. Try searching.
 
I'd also ask yourself, " am I being premature?" I'd finish flight training first rent for a spell then decide. Insurance is high for a recent private license holder. You may decide after some instruction that you are no longer interested. Something could happen financially. Etc. I'd be conservative unless money were abundant and it sounds like maybe it is not.
 
I spend $125/mo (or 1500 a year) on a hangar
1500 on insurance and 1500 on an annual on a bonanza.

Insurance and annual will be half that on a 172/cherokee.


I pay $125/mo for a hangar though a tie down would be free.

What am I missing here?

I had a Cherokee for 4 years and all in every cent spent on it didn't come close to $10k per year and certainly not $15000. That's including replacing or upgrading pretty much the entire panel, interior, hoses, gaskets, filters Etc
 
bartmc said:
I spend $125/mo (or 1500 a year) on a hangar
1500 on insurance and 1500 on an annual on a bonanza.

Insurance and annual will be half that on a 172/cherokee.


I pay $125/mo for a hangar though a tie down would be free.

What am I missing here?

I had a Cherokee for 4 years and all in every cent spent on it didn't come close to $10k per year and certainly not $15000. That's including replacing or upgrading pretty much the entire panel, interior, hoses, gaskets, filters Etc
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Your hangar rent quote is only a dream for most. Usually twice that. The Cherokee you lucked out on as it didn't require a major while you owned it. 25-30 grand. Insurance with good hull coverage and good liability is a must and for a low time pilot quite high and be sure to know exactly what the policy covers and does not. Very important. Leaving it tied down outside is called diminishing returns. Not a sound idea .
 
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bartmc said:
That's exceptionally high numbers for a Cherokee or 172 unless you're flying several hundred hours a year or have a serious fuel leak.

You can easily operate a Cherokee 75 hours a year or so for 1/2 to 1/3 of that.
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Including fuel, oil, maintenance, hangar, and insurance? Not hardly. Fuel alone would run $3000. Oh, you might have a year here and there where nothing breaks or wears out, and maybe you live where you can get a tie-down for $50/month, but in the long run, it's just not happening for $5K/year. I've owned four airplanes over the last 36 years (three of them light simple singles), so I know full well what ownership means to the budget.
 
Ron Levy said:
Including fuel, oil, maintenance, hangar, and insurance? Not hardly. Fuel alone would run $3000. Oh, you might have a year here and there where nothing breaks or wears out, and maybe you live where you can get a tie-down for $50/month, but in the long run, it's just not happening for $5K/year. I've owned four airplanes over the last 36 years (three of them light simple singles), so I know full well what ownership means to the budget.
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Post the spreadsheet. I spent $15000 In my first year of ownership on the bonanza. That was based in a hangar at signature for $400 per month and about 100hrs of flying. If you're spending 10000+ on a Cherokee to fly < 100 hrs per year, you're doing something wrong.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Your hangar rent quote is only a dream for most. Usually twice that. The Cherokee you lucked out on as it didn't require a major while you owned it. 25-30 grand. Insurance with good hull coverage and good liability is a must and for a low time pilot quite high and be sure to know exactly what the policy covers and does not. Very important. Leaving it tied down outside is called diminishing returns. Not a sound idea .
Click to expand...

$70,000 hull value on the bo with 250TT 0 complex and 0 high performance was $1700 per year. It's down a lot since then. Input about $7500 in upgrades into the Cherokee. Got only a tiny bit back on the sell. $10000 a year for "normal" hours????? YGBFSM. Someone's mechanic is livin good.

30 grand for an overhaul on an o320???? I have some Arizona ocean front real estate you might be interest in.
 
hyphen81 said:
Is it possible to get into an ownership situation for around $250 per month? Would the aircraft you could get at that monthly payment be a clunker? With the maintenance that goes into keeping an aircraft in good condition, what is a safe amount to factor in to cover normal and reasonable maintenance?

I realize this question has a lot of ins and outs, and may be somewhat vague, but I'd love to know about your personal experience in ownership and if my budget is way off base.

My normal mission would probably be about 80% flying locally, sightseeing, and a $100 burger, but I'd like to also use the plane to fly to the coast (Tennessee to Florida), as my wife and I enjoy going to the beach, and have relatives there.

I would be looking for something simple, as I'm still working on my PPL, and am doing all my flying in a 172. I'm just trying to get an idea of what I'm in for to try and keep this dream alive.

I've already priced out a flying club here locally, which would come out to about $300 a month wet to fly 2 hours/mo. I'd love to fly more than that, and am considering ownership as a possible way to accomplish that, but I'm just scratching the surface on what that would entail.

I'm not opposed to owning with a few other people, which I think would be best case scenario. I just don't know of anyone in my area yet.

ok, you may now commence poking holes in my dreams. :wink2:
Click to expand...

Don't give up your dream. If you really want it bad enough you will get it. I'm a newbie as well and I'm going to start by finishing up school and then rent for a few years until I'm ready for the full commitment. I read how much an Airplane costs in a previous post. (To maintain, Fuel and fly). John from a previous post said that you can rent for 100 wet where I live, I'm going to take full advantage of that.
 
I have a friend that paid approx $5K for his part of a 172. Four man partnership. They all pay less than $300/mo then $75/hr for fuel. Most of the other guys don't fly much.

Myself...well we did it the long, hard way. Finally paid off all debt at 38, PPC, built our RV-10 and now we are out about $500/mo plus extra for fuel $75/hr. There are many ways to reach your goal. Some require more sacrificing than most families can endure. I sure am lucky to have my understanding wife of 25 yrs! Good luck.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I'd also ask yourself, " am I being premature?" I'd finish flight training first rent for a spell then decide. Insurance is high for a recent private license holder. You may decide after some instruction that you are no longer interested. Something could happen financially. Etc. I'd be conservative unless money were abundant and it sounds like maybe it is not.
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I'm not talking about buying now, just weighing the costs and trying to figure out how ill use my PPL once I get it. If I can't afford to fly once I'm done, it doesn't make much sense to dump a bunch of money into training.


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I spend more then that keeping my Flybaby in the air. For that budget you are by far better off renting.
 
Flymeariver said:
Can I send my wife to yours for some training? My wife doesnt understand anything to do with planes and value to having.
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Luckily (or maybe not), my wife would let me drive us to the poor house without the slightest protest...she's more avid about me finishing my ppl than I am, and she doesn't even really like flying...maybe she just wants me out of the house;)


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$250/mo into a savings account for about 8 years will get a flyable but rough airplane. Then you'll have to feed and care for it.
 
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