interested in ownership? am I out of my league?

weilke said:
Btw. In trainer planes like warriors and 172s there is not much difference in premiums between a low time ppl and a student. If you both think that this could work, go looking for a plane now. You van finish your ppl in your own plane using a freelance cfi.
Click to expand...


I know a guy who did that actually. He bought a Cherokee and his CFI helped him ferry it back here, and then he finished his training in it. My only fear with that would be the what ifs...like, what if I owned a plane but didn't finish getting my license. I guess that's nothing the pressure of a $20K loan won't cure;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
wby0nder said:
$100/month insurance (probably less) + $100/month hangar rent + $600 annual insp. (generous) = $250/month. Been doing it for the last couple years with my sweet C150, flying on cheap auto fuel. And, now that I have a Mooney you can buy my 150!
Click to expand...

bartmc said:
These are realistic numbers.

And a Cherokee is only a rounding error more expensive to operate. You can tie down and go naked on the hull coverage and cut that price down.
Click to expand...

Until a new crank AD comes out or two of your cylinders go to hell or Cessna kicks out some new AD on the rudder (like they did). Point is a lot of unexpected major expenses can come up that one has no control over and if $250/mo is the only room in the budget then it's not going to be for that person.

Plus at some point it's going to need an overhaul, new radios, new transponder, ADS-B by 2020, interior, paint...Each one big one time expenses not reflected in that number.

Look at the cost of ownership over 20 years and things really start to add up. That's what Ron is pointing out.
 
jesse said:
Until a new crank AD comes out or two of your cylinders go to hell or Cessna kicks out some new AD on the rudder (like they did). Point is a lot of unexpected major expenses can come up that one has no control over and if $250/mo is the only room in the budget then it's not going to be for that person.

Plus at some point it's going to need an overhaul, new radios, new transponder, ADS-B by 2020, interior, paint...Each one big one time expenses not reflected in that number.

Look at the cost of ownership over 20 years and things really start to add up. That's what Ron is pointing out.
Click to expand...

The rudder AD was what 2 screws and washers. ADS b isn't required to go flying. And yes, there are risks but it doesn't cost $10k$15k per year to fly average hours in a Cherokee. You can buy another one every other year and fly it for that. Nobody says you have to overhaul the engine. Buy one for $15K and sell it for 10 when the engine gets tired. I sold my /G Cherokee for $18,500 with 600 SMOH it's got 14-20 years of normal hours left in the engine. Time it out and sell it for 10k...engine cost would be $500 per year.
 
bartmc said:
The rudder AD was what 2 screws and washers. ADS b isn't required to go flying. And yes, there are risks but it doesn't cost $10k$15k per year to fly average hours in a Cherokee. You can buy another one every other year and fly it for that. Nobody says you have to overhaul the engine. Buy one for $15K and sell it for 10 when the engine gets tired. I sold my /G Cherokee for $18,500 with 600 SMOH it's got 14-20 years of normal hours left in the engine. Time it out and sell it for 10k...engine cost would be $500 per year.
Click to expand...

All based on hopeful thinking. I prefer to plan around the worst that could happen (as most folks do) and make sure I tell people the worst that could happen. They can then accept the risk as they see fit. But to pretend like no maintenance other than a few hundred bucks on an annual every year could arise is a gross misrepresentation of what ownership is. I've known few people that don't have to drop surprise random AMUs on their airplane every now and then regardless of type.

We each have our opinions :)

I believe the rudder A/D cost more then what most people would imagine a couple bolts and a washer would cost. I'd guess somewhere between .5 to 1 AMU.

I know many people that have had to top their Cessna 150s unexpectedly, actually most owners I've known. That's cost them a few AMU. O-200 is just so prone to valve issues.

At the end of the day if you can't afford to drop $20,000 on yes even a Cessna 150 without undue financial hardship then you can't afford to own.
 
Last edited:
Jimmy cooper said:
Tying an aeronca chief or any tube and fabric taildragger down outside isn't cheap. They go south quickly under these conditions regardless of Ceconite stitts, etc. if you can't afford a hangar don't buy one.( Unless it's a dog to begin with.)
Click to expand...

Like many other things, depends very much on location/environment. I would not want to keep a fabric plane outside here in Norfolk, but would have no problem owning one in San Diego.
 
Ok, I have an example for you guys to poke holes in, but imagine a 3 way shared ownership situation on the following piper cherokee 180:

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/PIPER-CHEROKEE-180/1963-PIPER-CHEROKEE-180/1318485.htm

sale price is $36,900 (I've seen several in the 30K to 40K range that look decent, so this seems like a good example). Each person comes to the table with a 15% downpayment of $1,845. That makes a financed amount of $31,365 on a 15 year note at 6.5%, which is $273.22. Split 3 ways its $91 per month for the loan payment. Several people have given figures of $100 a month for insurance, plus $100 a month for a tie-down, but since I'm a low hour pilot, we'll go with $150 for the insurance piece. Add in the the cost of an estimated $2000 annual, and that's $417 per month, split 3 ways is $139. On top of that, throw in $55 per month per person to cover the eventual engine overhaul. That comes out to $285 per person, per month, fixed costs.

So then, take $15 per hour for incidental maintenance, plus fuel in my area at $6.00 per gallon. with a fuel burn of 10 gallons per hour, a total of $75 / hr.

After a year, you'd have $6230 in reserves to cover the annual (this assumes each person flew 50 hours over the course of the year), and any maintenance that's required, and also the savings for the eventual overhaul is included in that figure. This also would provide a buffer in case something a bit more pricey goes wrong, at which point we could adjust the monthly costs accordingly to cover the eventual overhaul, or sell if it if we start to get worried about long-term costs.

Also, as others have pointed out, you could fly this 150 hours per year for 5 or 6 years and then sell it and upgrade or do whatever, without ever performing the overhaul.

Ok, I think these figures are pretty conservative, but y'all tell me what I'm not taking into account? I'm sure someone will think these figures are totally bogus.. ;)
 
hyphen81 said:
Luckily (or maybe not), my wife would let me drive us to the poor house without the slightest protest...she's more avid about me finishing my ppl than I am, and she doesn't even really like flying...maybe she just wants me out of the house;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Does she hold a big life insurance policy on you? :D
 
Bill Jennings said:
I know what a Chief is, I'm still surprised you could get a no squawk annual on one for $500. Maybe owner assisted. Good for him, but I wouldn't think that typical.
Click to expand...
annual inspection flatrate I pay in the midwest US on our 3 planes:
travel air (retractable twin) $800
pawnee (fixed gear, constant speed prop) $250
aeronca champ $150
an inspection is an inspection. An inspection is not repairs and performing scheduled servicing.
 
hyphen81 said:
Ok, I have an example for you guys to poke holes in, but imagine a 3 way shared ownership situation on the following piper cherokee 180:

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/PIPER-CHEROKEE-180/1963-PIPER-CHEROKEE-180/1318485.htm

sale price is $36,900 (I've seen several in the 30K to 40K range that look decent, so this seems like a good example). Each person comes to the table with a 15% downpayment of $1,845. That makes a financed amount of $31,365 on a 15 year note at 6.5%, which is $273.22. Split 3 ways its $91 per month for the loan payment. Several people have given figures of $100 a month for insurance, plus $100 a month for a tie-down, but since I'm a low hour pilot, we'll go with $150 for the insurance piece. Add in the the cost of an estimated $2000 annual, and that's $417 per month, split 3 ways is $139. On top of that, throw in $55 per month per person to cover the eventual engine overhaul. That comes out to $285 per person, per month, fixed costs.

So then, take $15 per hour for incidental maintenance, plus fuel in my area at $6.00 per gallon. with a fuel burn of 10 gallons per hour, a total of $75 / hr.

After a year, you'd have $6230 in reserves to cover the annual (this assumes each person flew 50 hours over the course of the year), and any maintenance that's required, and also the savings for the eventual overhaul is included in that figure. This also would provide a buffer in case something a bit more pricey goes wrong, at which point we could adjust the monthly costs accordingly to cover the eventual overhaul, or sell if it if we start to get worried about long-term costs.

Also, as others have pointed out, you could fly this 150 hours per year for 5 or 6 years and then sell it and upgrade or do whatever, without ever performing the overhaul.

Ok, I think these figures are pretty conservative, but y'all tell me what I'm not taking into account? I'm sure someone will think these figures are totally bogus.. ;)
Click to expand...


At that price, just have everyone pay cash.

When I bought into my current partnership my buy-in cost was the same as this entire aircraft. My other partners would have been unwilling to do the deal if I had to finance.
 
Ok, I think these figures are pretty conservative, but y'all tell me what I'm not taking into account? I'm sure someone will think these figures are totally bogus.. ;)
Click to expand...

I think you can do it for that, Jon. With 3 partners, $250/mo will do it. Just pick two partners you mix well with. Go for it.
 
hyphen81 said:
sale price is $36,900 (I've seen several in the 30K to 40K range that look decent, so this seems like a good example). Each person comes to the table with a 15% downpayment of $1,845. That makes a financed amount of $31,365 on a 15 year note at 6.5%, which is $273.22.
Click to expand...

You'll have a loan with 4 guarantors, if 2 of your partners stop paying, the bank will come after you for the full amount. You can do that, but it bears some extra risk. Not all the finance companies are going to be willing to do that kind of loan given the 'small' number involved. I know its easy for me to say, but for 10k per person, it would really be preferable if everyone brings cash.

Add in the the cost of an estimated $2000 annual, and that's $417 per month, split 3 ways is $139. On top of that, throw in $55 per month per person to cover the eventual engine overhaul.
Click to expand...
As your overhaul is dependent on usage, most partnerships would allocate overhaul cost on the hourly fee rather than the monthly. An overhaul (including hoses and other stuff that tends to be due at that tiem) for a O320/O360 is maybe $22,000. Nominally, those engines last 2000hrs, so you woul allocate $11/hr for overhaul reserve. Add another $1.50/hr to overhaul and eventurally replace the fixed pitch prop.

The fixed expenses that should make up your monthly share are:
- 'basic annual' (whatever the shop charges for that type, x hrs)
- tiedown/hangar
- insurance
- property tax (if applicable)
- database subscriptions (if applicable)
- corporate registration fees (if you use a 'inc' or 'llc' to register the plane)

The variable expenses that should make up your hourly charge are:
- general maintenance
- engine/prop overhaul reserve

So then, take $15 per hour for incidental maintenance, plus fuel in my area at $6.00 per gallon. with a fuel burn of 10 gallons per hour, a total of $75 / hr.
Click to expand...
What works for us and what seems to be the most common setup is that the plane is stored with the fuel at set level (doesn't have to be 'full', just an agreed upon level). Each pilot fills up on his own account back to that level. The partnership never buys fuel.

$15/hr for incidental maintenance and $12.50/hr for 'rotables' should allow you to cover most mechanical work. Put the reserves into a separate reserve account and the maintenance into the general account to pay for the annual and the random crap that just falls off throughout the year.

Ok, I think these figures are pretty conservative, but y'all tell me what I'm not taking into account? I'm sure someone will think these figures are totally bogus.. ;)
Click to expand...
No, they sound about right. You need to make sure that doing this is not a stretch for you and your partners and that you have to be able to sustain the thing if your partners drop out or just stop paying. A partnership is great if you dont really have to be in a partnership......
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top