interested in ownership? am I out of my league?

We have four partners in our 76 Warrior. We're paying $150 month fixed and $17hr dry to fly and the plane is hangared.
 
EppyGA said:
We have four partners in our 76 Warrior. We're paying $150 month fixed and $17hr dry to fly and the plane is hangared.
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Can I join? ;)


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$100/month insurance (probably less) + $100/month hangar rent + $600 annual insp. (generous) = $250/month. Been doing it for the last couple years with my sweet C150, flying on cheap auto fuel. And, now that I have a Mooney you can buy my 150!
 
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wby0nder said:
$100/month insurance (probably less) + $100/month hangar rent + $600 annual insp. (generous) = $250/month. Been doing it for the last couple years with my sweet C150, flying on cheap auto fuel. And, now that I have a Mooney you can buy my 150!
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These are realistic numbers.

And a Cherokee is only a rounding error more expensive to operate. You can tie down and go naked on the hull coverage and cut that price down.
 
wby0nder said:
$100/month insurance (probably less) + $100/month hangar rent + $600 annual insp. (generous) = $250/month. Been doing it for the last couple years with my sweet C150, flying on cheap auto fuel. And, now that I have a Mooney you can buy my 150!
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Nice! Not sure that would accomplish the mission with my 200 lb frame..add my wife and a bag or 2, and we're in trouble...I like the idea of running on auto fuel though!


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bartmc said:
These are realistic numbers.



And a Cherokee is only a rounding error more expensive to operate. You can tie down and go naked on the hull coverage and cut that price down.
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I like the idea of a Cherokee....I'd have to look at tie down costs in my area, but there are a few rural airports within 40 minutes drive or so.


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Well, if your wife is small you're good to go. But, this plane is way too nice to tiedown outside. You'd definitely want a hangar.
 
Don't sell yourself short there are deals out there.. I picked up my vfr cherokee (my avatar) 140 with 152hrs on the engine for $15k., it's a sweet little bird.. I also posted on here a while back a very nice looking Musketeer that was at our field with 4 partners and only 1 regular flier. One of those guys finally gave up his portion for $3,500., that plane had monthly fixed costs or $70 including hangar, insurance etc..
Look around and be patient something just might fall in your lap!
 
hyphen81 said:
I like the idea of a Cherokee....I'd have to look at tie down costs in my area, but there are a few rural airports within 40 minutes drive or so.


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I don't think its wise to jump into ownership on your budget but it seems a few on here are blowing things out of proportion. Yes, **** can happen and you need to be able/willing to accept that risk. It doesn't cost $15,000 per year to operate a Cherokee under normal or even bad circumstances, it doesn't cost $30,000 to overhaul an o320 and $100-$150/per month will likely rent a hangar around Franklin TN. Or $10-$25 for a tie down. I budgeted $800 for my annuals and my insurance was about the same. I'm not saying its cheap and I'm not saying $250 a month is going to cut it but let's be real.
 
I consider myself lucky. I'm bought a share of a 172N almost two years ago. Share price was $3300 (1/15 share, about $15K in the bank and a hangar, electric tug, etc included). Our dues to cover fixed costs are $60/month. To fly the plane, it's $65/(tach)hour wet. Did some calcs and figured that (once I was sunk into the share price) this was cheaper than renting if I fly an average of one hour per month. Everything over and hour a month "saves" me about $60/hr vs renting from the local FBO*. And if/when I decide to get out, there's SOME value in the share (maybe not $3300, but the convenience of a plane that's always been available when I want it, no minimums, etc has been worth it).

Long story short, $250/month gets me access to the plane and about 3 hours of flight time. If I rented, I'd only be able to get about 2 hours/month for that money. (And would be subjected to scheduling conflicts, minimums, etc that I don't have now.)

*To be fair, the FBO's 172 is nicer than the one I "own" but as a guy just trying to get some ratings as cheaply as possible, the differences really don't matter to me.
 
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bartmc said:
I don't think its wise to jump into ownership on your budget but it seems a few on here are blowing things out of proportion. Yes, **** can happen and you need to be able/willing to accept that risk. It doesn't cost $15,000 per year to operate a Cherokee under normal or even bad circumstances, it doesn't cost $30,000 to overhaul an o320 and $100-$150/per month will likely rent a hangar around Franklin TN. Or $10-$25 for a tie down. I budgeted $800 for my annuals and my insurance was about the same. I'm not saying its cheap and I'm not saying $250 a month is going to cut it but let's be real.
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If I opt to continue my training and accept this as my life now, versus taking up knitting or maybe magic, then I would probably start with a club membership. Just pay the $300 per month for my couple of hours. Perhaps down the line an opportunity for joint ownership will come available and maybe then I could jump on it. The flying club actually sounds pretty nice. There's no daily minimum hours or anything if you take it on a trip, so that's a bonus too.


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mjburian said:
I consider myself lucky. I'm bought a share of a 172N almost two years ago. Share price was $3300 (1/15 share, about $15K in the bank and a hangar, electric tug, etc included). Our dues to cover fixed costs are $60/month. To fly the plane, it's $65/(tach)hour wet. Did some calcs and figured that (once I was sunk into the share price) this was cheaper than renting if I fly an average of one hour per month. Everything over and hour a month "saves" me about $60/hr vs renting from the local FBO*. And if/when I decide to get out, there's SOME value in the share (maybe not $3300, but the convenience of a plane that's always been available when I want it, no minimums, etc has been worth it).



Long story short, $250/month gets me access to the plane and about 3 hours of flight time. If I rented, I'd only be able to get about 2 hours/month for that money. (And would be subjected to scheduling conflicts, minimums, etc that I don't have now.)



*To be fair, the FBO's 172 is nicer than the one I "own" but as a guy just trying to get some ratings as cheaply as possible, the differences really don't matter to me.
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That sounds like a pretty sweet deal. $65/hr wet makes it a lot easier to go on a 4 hour round-trip without cringing when you think about what it's costing you.


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weilke said:
That is the kind of deal you should be looking for. 3-4 partners, simple plane, solid financials.
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So, is that type of thing be fairly easy to find, or should I not hold my breathe?


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wby0nder said:
Well, if your wife is small you're good to go. But, this plane is way too nice to tiedown outside. You'd definitely want a hangar.
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She'd fly away if there weren't seat belts;)


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Pinstriper said:
Don't sell yourself short there are deals out there.. I picked up my vfr cherokee (my avatar) 140 with 152hrs on the engine for $15k., it's a sweet little bird.. I also posted on here a while back a very nice looking Musketeer that was at our field with 4 partners and only 1 regular flier. One of those guys finally gave up his portion for $3,500., that plane had monthly fixed costs or $70 including hangar, insurance etc..

Look around and be patient something just might fall in your lap!
Click to expand...


She's a nice looking plane! This gives me hope! I would only be flying VFR and would be thrilled to have a Cherokee...I think I like the aesthetics of a Cherokee more than a 172...never actually flown one though, so I can't comment on much more than that. I've heard they're similar though.


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hyphen81 said:
So, is that type of thing be fairly easy to find, or should I not hold my breathe?
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Put up postings at the local airports that you are looking for a share in a 4-seater. Ask around, talk to mechanics, flight instructors and managers of small airports. Leave your business card.

Often partnerships have 2 partners that fly, one who lost his medical, and one who has moved across the country and hasn't bothered to look for a buyer for his $7000 share. Nobody is advertising those shares, but if someone comes around who is looking, they may be available.
 
hyphen81 said:
She's a nice looking plane! This gives me hope! I would only be flying VFR and would be thrilled to have a Cherokee...I think I like the aesthetics of a Cherokee more than a 172...never actually flown one though, so I can't comment on much more than that. I've heard they're similar though.
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Dont get too hung up about the particular type of aircraft. Cherokee, Grumman, 172, Musketeer are all very similar. Look for the right partners if that is the route you want to go.
 
hyphen81 said:
Luckily (or maybe not), my wife would let me drive us to the poor house without the slightest protest...she's more avid about me finishing my ppl than I am, and she doesn't even really like flying...maybe she just wants me out of the house;)


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Or maybe she just wants the insurance money....:D

I asked a friend once to do the math for me on his Aeronca Chief I know that isn't really the plane for you mission but all in gas and all flying about 75 hours a year he was at about $50 an hour. Obviously his tie down is cheap and he lives in climate where this is possible.

Here are his numbers:

Gas - $5.70 per gallon, 4 gallons per hour = $22/hr
Oil - $8 per quart, 4 quarts per 25 hours = $1.3/hr
Tie-down - $35/month, assume 75 hours/yr = $5.6/hr
Insurance - $1200/yr = $16/hr
Annual Inspection - $500/yr = $6/hr
BFR - $200/2yr = $1.33/hr
Total - about $50 / hr. or $3750 per year.
 
DFH65 said:
Here are his numbers:

Gas - $5.70 per gallon, 4 gallons per hour = $22/hr
Oil - $8 per quart, 4 quarts per 25 hours = $1.3/hr
Tie-down - $35/month, assume 75 hours/yr = $5.6/hr
Insurance - $1200/yr = $16/hr
Annual Inspection - $500/yr = $6/hr
BFR - $200/2yr = $1.33/hr
Total - about $50 / hr. or $3750 per year.
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Annual for $500? Squawk or no I'm not buying it.

Where is the kitty for unexpected repairs?
 
My guess for a hangar around Franklin would be around $200/mo. Check around. I think you will have to tie down.
 
bartmc said:
I spend $125/mo (or 1500 a year) on a hangar

1500 on insurance and 1500 on an annual on a bonanza.



Insurance and annual will be half that on a 172/cherokee.





I pay $125/mo for a hangar though a tie down would be free.



What am I missing here?



I had a Cherokee for 4 years and all in every cent spent on it didn't come close to $10k per year and certainly not $15000. That's including replacing or upgrading pretty much the entire panel, interior, hoses, gaskets, filters Etc
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One if the biggest things you are probably missing is location, location, location. One if the biggest reasons there is such a huge range in what people report as their costs is that fixed costs can vary greatly between locations. You spend $125/month on a hangar. When I was in San Diego, it cost me $150 for a tiedown on the ramp. Hangars where I am currently start at $400/month and go up from there. A&P shop costs can vary as well. Most of us live where we have employment to support our habit and thus don't have as much choice in those fixed costs. Doesn't mean your numbers are wrong, just means they are right for your area.
 
Fearless Tower said:
One if the biggest things you are probably missing is location, location, location. One if the biggest reasons there is such a huge range in what people report as their costs is that fixed costs can vary greatly between locations. You spend $125/month on a hangar. When I was in San Diego, it cost me $150 for a tiedown on the ramp. Hangars where I am currently start at $400/month and go up from there. A&P shop costs can vary as well. Most of us live where we have employment to support our habit and thus don't have as much choice in those fixed costs. Doesn't mean your numbers are wrong, just means they are right for your area.
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True but people should qualify that when giving advice I think so as not to unnecessarily scare people away from the hobby.

Yes, "you" (not you specifically) may spend $400 a month on a hanger and $3k at your annual on a Cherokeee but that's not what "has" to happen in the vast majority of places in the US.

You can keep a Cherokee in a hanger, pay for the annual, and pay your insurance for 5k a year in most places, especially in the south where he's at where things are cheaper. Tie down for cheap and it's more like 3k a year in fixed costs.

Yes, he'd need a "crap happens" fund (probably built by putting $10 or so away for every flight hour; let's say 100 hours) so he can spend another $1200 or so a year in excess maintenance. If he wants to upgrade it'll cost him, but you don't "have" to upgrade things. The above numbers includes $1500 for the annual and an annual shouldn't cost that much on a Cherokee unless you have to replace a few things.

I get about 8gph in the Cherokee I fly. So wet costs, even with the extra $10 is only about $50 an hour ($5.03 a gallon for members at VKX…my uncles airport in MS is only $4.63 a gallon for everyone).

Now this assumes he gets a good engine that takes him to TBO over the course of 10 years or so. If he buys a lemon, all bets are off. But you take that risk with any big purchase in life.
 
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Bill Jennings said:
Annual for $500? Squawk or no I'm not buying it.

Where is the kitty for unexpected repairs?
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Are you familiar with a Chief? It is tube fabric and a motor slapped together. If an uneventful annual on a 172 can be done for a $1000-1500 I can't see why a Chief can't be done for half that. I am also pretty certain it is owner assisted since this guy has owned it forever and restored the thing himself a few years back.
 
DFH65 said:
Are you familiar with a Chief? It is tube fabric and a motor slapped together. If an uneventful annual on a 172 can be done for a $1000-1500 I can't see why a Chief can't be done for half that. I am also pretty certain it is owner assisted since this guy has owned it forever and restored the thing himself a few years back.
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I know what a Chief is, I'm still surprised you could get a no squawk annual on one for $500. Maybe owner assisted. Good for him, but I wouldn't think that typical.
 
Just to add my 2 cents about location, at DPA, tie downs are $35 a month, hangars are in the $350-400 range. So just to put a roof over your planes head would blow your budget.
I joined a flying club, $100 to join, 40 a month dues and a decent Warrior for $100 wet. It is nice when the weather is bad, or when normal life bills pile up to just write a $40 check for the month and not worry. But man the siren call of ownership is getting louder every day for me..
 
hyphen81 said:
That sounds like a pretty sweet deal. $65/hr wet makes it a lot easier to go on a 4 hour round-trip without cringing when you think about what it's costing you.


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There are some downsides to a large number of pilots sharing a single airplane but that's probably about as inexpensive as it gets for a 172. Even if you borrowed $3000 at 10% your monthly fixed costs wouldn't amount to more than $90. As to the downsides, if most of those 15 pilots actively use the airplane there will be many scheduling conflicts. Also at $65 wet I doubt the club is building an engine reserve fund and that means the members who fly a lot are doing so at the expense of those who don't.
 
For me, the right cost/benefit seems to be with a 2-way or 3-way partnership. I wouldn't want any more.
 
gismo said:
There are some downsides to a large number of pilots sharing a single airplane but that's probably about as inexpensive as it gets for a 172. Even if you borrowed $3000 at 10% your monthly fixed costs wouldn't amount to more than $90. As to the downsides, if most of those 15 pilots actively use the airplane there will be many scheduling conflicts. Also at $65 wet I doubt the club is building an engine reserve fund and that means the members who fly a lot are doing so at the expense of those who don't.
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That's why I consider myself lucky. Of the 15 in the club, only about 5 actually fly the thing. In two years, I've maybe once wanted the plane and found it unavailable. No problem, though, because I flew Wednesday night instead of Tuesday night. Definitely worth the (very minimal) inconvenience to me.

Also, I'm told by the treasurer that we have about $18K in the engine fund right now, with the engine at about 1100 hours. Seems to me like we're on pace to have plenty available, even with a few minor squawks this annual, a new transponder and a few other minor fixes/updates that have been done. As I said, I've only been in the club about two years, but they've owned the plane since new and I'm told that nobody in the club (longest member at this point has been in it about 16 years) has any recollection of an assessment.

Anyway, there are two shares for sale right now if anyone in the Milwaukee area is looking. Plane is based at Timmerman (KMWC). It's not as well-appointed as some of the other birds around here, but it's definitely in good shape and, like I said, I couldn't find a cheaper way to work through some ratings.
 
charheep said:
Just to add my 2 cents about location, at DPA, tie downs are $35 a month, hangars are in the $350-400 range. So just to put a roof over your planes head would blow your budget.

I joined a flying club, $100 to join, 40 a month dues and a decent Warrior for $100 wet. It is nice when the weather is bad, or when normal life bills pile up to just write a $40 check for the month and not worry. But man the siren call of ownership is getting louder every day for me..
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That flight club sounds like a great deal! The one I've looked at here is over an hour from me, has a $1,000 fee to join, plus $90/ mo. And $107 wet for a 172, with a minimum of 2 hours per month.


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Y'all should really email Ron and get his info. He accounts for everything!

Luckily most of us are a bit blind when it comes to spending $$$ on our hobbies. That blindness helps because if we tallied up the true costs, we wouldn't get off the sofa. I have a buddy who was telling me yesterday that he & his wife's horse hobby was costing him $400/month. He was just talking boarding. I didn't have the heart to point out that he also bought a $40k pickup and a trailer to haul them around to events at 10mpg. :rofl:

So those who say you can get it done on the cheap are right, and so is Ron. If you buy a plane with a "7" P&I and let it fade/wear out to being a "3", you've lost money but you might not notice the hit until you go to sell the plane. Similar on taking the engine from 800SMOH to 1800SMOH. All these things are costing you $$$ but you may not notice.
 
Currently renting a 172 for $110 kinda hard to justify buying. Eventually I would like to buy something my mission is kicking around the skies on nice days, the occasional air show or pancake breakfast and a longer 4-5 hour cross country once in awhile.

On my short list not in any particular order are: Tripacer, Colt, Champ, Chief, Cub

I really hope when and if I get to the point of buying I could find two other guys to go in on it with me but that is tough in the area I live. There are a few other pilots close by but they already own their own.
 
I'm 4 way partners in a Cherokee 235 at $250 a month is very reasonable from a fixed cost perspective. You figure your fixed costs are hangar fees and insurance. Our insurance is barely $1k a year split 4 ways. Hangar fees are a couple hundred a month / 4.

Now, any reasonable partnership is going to take some $$ amount per Hobbs hour for the TBO...sometimes a bit more to cover regular maintenance or the annual. An annual can be anywhere from a few hundred bucks to thousands depending on all kinds of circumstances. So, plan on having to deal with that as well as various other maintenance issues over the course of a year you'll have to chip in for. In the year I've been in my Cherokee we've had 2 instruments go bad (now the VOR or NAV radio is on the fritz...), vacuum pump, starter, battery & solenoid replacements, flap reskinned, door reseal, the plane slipped off the jack point when having some work done and poked a hole on the underside of the wing (thankfully not near a spar) so had to have that patched up, etc...

People look at $20-30k to buy a plane and think it's going to be like maintaining a car. Nope.
 
hyphen81 said:
My normal mission would probably be about 80% flying locally, sightseeing, and a $100 burger, but I'd like to also use the plane to fly to the coast (Tennessee to Florida), as my wife and I enjoy going to the beach, and have relatives there.


I'm not opposed to owning with a few other people, which I think would be best case scenario. I just don't know of anyone in my area yet.
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Hey, Jon,

I'm nearly in the same boat but just ahead of you. I got my PPL last fall, and I also live in Franklin. Right now I rent at JWN which can be difficult at times due to availability and daily mins for overnights. In fact, this weekend two of their three 172's are down for maintenance (or at least flagged that way in the scheduler). :(

I'll PM you with my contact info if you decide on looking for partnerships. I'd definitely be interested. I think something "simple" like a Warrior, Cherokee 180, 172, or Grumman Cheetah or Tiger would be the way to go for a first plane. I've admittedly only flown in 152's, 172's, and a Cherokee 180. I hope to eventually get my IFR ticket, so something that has a decent panel would be nice.
 
mark.staggs said:
Hey, Jon,



I'm nearly in the same boat but just ahead of you. I got my PPL last fall, and I also live in Franklin. Right now I rent at JWN which can be difficult at times due to availability and daily mins for overnights. In fact, this weekend two of their three 172's are down for maintenance (or at least flagged that way in the scheduler). :(



I'll PM you with my contact info if you decide on looking for partnerships. I'd definitely be interested. I think something "simple" like a Warrior, Cherokee 180, 172, or Grumman Cheetah or Tiger would be the way to go for a first plane. I've admittedly only flown in 152's, 172's, and a Cherokee 180. I hope to eventually get my IFR ticket, so something that has a decent panel would be nice.
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That sounds great Mark! I'm hoping to finish my private this year, and then I'd be interested in exploring that possibility. We should definitely talk!


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Btw. In trainer planes like warriors and 172s there is not much difference in premiums between a low time ppl and a student. If you both think that this could work, go looking for a plane now. You van finish your ppl in your own plane using a freelance cfi.
 
DFH65 said:
Or maybe she just wants the insurance money....:D

I asked a friend once to do the math for me on his Aeronca Chief I know that isn't really the plane for you mission but all in gas and all flying about 75 hours a year he was at about $50 an hour. Obviously his tie down is cheap and he lives in climate where this is possible.

Here are his numbers:

Gas - $5.70 per gallon, 4 gallons per hour = $22/hr
Oil - $8 per quart, 4 quarts per 25 hours = $1.3/hr
Tie-down - $35/month, assume 75 hours/yr = $5.6/hr
Insurance - $1200/yr = $16/hr
Annual Inspection - $500/yr = $6/hr
BFR - $200/2yr = $1.33/hr
Total - about $50 / hr. or $3750 per year.
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Tying an aeronca chief or any tube and fabric taildragger down outside isn't cheap. They go south quickly under these conditions regardless of Ceconite stitts, etc. if you can't afford a hangar don't buy one.( Unless it's a dog to begin with.)
 
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