Insurance Question

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eventualpilot

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eventualpilot
I have the opportunity to dry lease a Cessna 210, which I would use for my instrument rating as well as personal flying.

First thing I need to do it look at the insurance cost/availability.

I am a private pilot certificate with about 225 hours. 10 hours of retractable time.

I would need hull coverage of $250K-$300K. I don’t have any issue of dual with an instructor for an extended period of time as an insurance requirement.

Can I get this level of coverage (most likely beyond simple renters insurance)? If so, what would an approximate cost be? Any broker suggestions?
 
It's going to cost you with your hours, if your 75+ LOL.
 
eventualpilot said:
I have the opportunity to dry lease a Cessna 210, which I would use for my instrument rating as well as personal flying.

First thing I need to do it look at the insurance cost/availability.

I am a private pilot certificate with about 225 hours. 10 hours of retractable time.

I would need hull coverage of $250K-$300K. I don’t have any issue of dual with an instructor for an extended period of time as an insurance requirement.

Can I get this level of coverage (most likely beyond simple renters insurance)? If so, what would an approximate cost be? Any broker suggestions?
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The most hull value AVEMCO would give me at that hour range was $250k a couple years ago. Other insurers were fine going quite a bit higher, but the insurance premium was substantially more.
I don't think insurance would care that much about an extended amount of dual time unless there's something unique to 210s that I'm not aware of (though I do vaguely recall reading on PoA about how insurers really don't like 210s, but I don't have any direct experience w/that). When I got my retractable at 56h TT and a few hrs of retract, they only required 10h dual in same type and then I was good to fly solo.
 
What is the "bump up" on the owners insurance to list you as a "named pilot"? Would that be a better option?
I'm sure the insurance will require additional dual hours with a CFI or CFII that has 210 experience.
 
eventualpilot said:
I have the opportunity to dry lease a Cessna 210, which I would use for my instrument rating as well as personal flying.

First thing I need to do it look at the insurance cost/availability.

I am a private pilot certificate with about 225 hours. 10 hours of retractable time.

I would need hull coverage of $250K-$300K. I don’t have any issue of dual with an instructor for an extended period of time as an insurance requirement.

Can I get this level of coverage (most likely beyond simple renters insurance)? If so, what would an approximate cost be? Any broker suggestions?
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210's are expensive to insure. My experience has been almost twice what another comparable aircraft would cost. Most likely need a minimum of 10 hours dual in the aircraft. If you are not a member of AOPA, join and use their insurance portal. They shop 2-3 insurers for the coverage you want.
 
AOPAs broker is no bargain, either. Oddly enough I was using USAA's brokerage (I use them for other insurance products) until they sold out to USAIG and then after a couple of year USAIG decided they wouldn't write Navion policies anymore under any circumstances. The brokerage couldn't find anything so I gave up on them. I tried Travers, but they couldn't write a hull policy at the valuation I wanted. I ended up with Avemco because they were willing to have me send them a list of the things that made my hull worth that much and they wrote it.

Of course having a ton of time in type helped a lot. It was right before I got my instrument rating so that didn't enter into the discussions.
 
A 210 will be tough, but if anyone can get you the best quote, it's Angelo Manuele.

angelo@blueskiesinsurancegroup.com

He's an honest broker, that will shop hard for you.

He also has CFIs ready-to-rock in case the underwriter specifies type-specific training.

Edit: Are you willing to throw the dice for a year and go liability-only while you build hours? If you are able, this is an option some are finding attractive.
 
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not sure insurance will quote you. It might help if you have a lot of retract time. But they usually like instrument for 210's. . . So if its being "dry leased" - you will want to have that insurance checked before you sign. It might prove more difficult than you think.
 
Talk to Avemco. Being an underwriter, a quote from them won’t interfere with getting subsequent quotes from a broker.
 
Stewartb said:
Talk to Avemco. Being an underwriter, a quote from them won’t interfere with getting subsequent quotes from a broker.
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dont believe avemco will insure him in a 210. last I checked a few years ago, they required 250 TiT and he doesnt have that.
 
BillTIZ said:
What is the "bump up" on the owners insurance to list you as a "named pilot"? Would that be a better option?
I'm sure the insurance will require additional dual hours with a CFI or CFII that has 210 experience.
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My experience is that the premium is based on the most expensive person. That's even true in co-ownership arrangements.

The separate question is what @eventualpilot means by "dry lease." Are we talking about hourly rental from time to time (i.e., non-owner policy for the lessee) or a longer term lease. If the latter, are we talking exclusive or non-exclusive? If exclusive, what does the lease say about who has the burden of insuring the airplane?
 
midlifeflyer said:
My experience is that the premium is based on the most expensive person. That's even true in co-ownership arrangements.

The separate question is what @eventualpilot means by "dry lease." Are we talking about hourly rental from time to time (i.e., non-owner policy for the lessee) or a longer term lease. If the latter, are we talking exclusive or non-exclusive? If exclusive, what does the lease say about who has the burden of insuring the airplane?
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It would be a long term lease with exclusive use of the aircraft.

No lease agreement drawn up. Based on my conversations with the owner he said that insurance is probably the biggest hurdle. He told me to get some quotes and basically said if I am insurable and have no issue with the cost we'll move on to discuss lease terms.
 
I just signed a final sales contract on a T210, hull value $300,000. ASEL/IR, high performance/ 360hrs total/220 in 182/ no retract/complex endorsement. Assured Partners is my broker, 3 underwriters willing to write for 1mil/200k per passenger.
Quotes ranged from $11-18K and varied widely on dual and solo requirements before covering passengers. I chose London which requires 3hrs dual with a CFII 25hrs in M/M, 250hrs retract/ 1000 hrs total time. I must have 15hrs solo before carrying passengers….$11,800 first year and should drop a bit after 250hrs. IPC required annually….which is a good thing IMO. Getting coverage with low time and no instrument rating, if possible, will be very costly. You will save mucho dinero, if that matters to you, if you get your IR prior to getting insurance quotes for a 210.

Only London allowed BasicMed! This is NOT a pressurized craft…??? After age 70 they do not insure BM in this aircraft. I’m 62 and if I am still in this airplane at that age, hopefully they will have softened on that stance.
 
It sounds like you and the owner and contemplating a dry lease agreement for the use of his aircraft.

If that is the case, in all of those arrangements that I have seen, the new operator and pilot is added to the existing insurance policy. Because it is a commercial operation by definition, and because the experience may be a bit lower than the owner, there will likely be an increase in premium, which would be the lessee’s responsibility to cover.

I hope it works out!

Abram Finkelstein
N685AS
 
With enough money someone will provide you with insurance,with requirements you may not be in agreement with with,you are a low time pilot for a 210
 
Thanks for the insight. Didn't know what to expect, but it seems that based on my level of experience, I'd likely face an initial annual insurance cost of $12,000+.
 
You might not be able to find insurance without first having your instrument rating. Even at an exaggerated premium, you may be SOL. That was the first question out of my agent’s mouth….”You are instrument rated, correct”.
 
flyingron said:
Oddly enough I was using USAA's brokerage (I use them for other insurance products) until they sold out to USAIG and then after a couple of year USAIG decided they wouldn't write Navion policies anymore under any circumstances. The brokerage couldn't find anything so I gave up on them.
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FYI, USAA now has an agreement with Falcon as a broker. But you have to go through USAA website. You get people at Falcon that ONLY deal with USAA customers.
 
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