Insurance maximums too low?

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dave Taylor
I had a flight the other day with a full load of 4.
Coincidentally I'd read about a crash which had 3 very serious injuries and a pilot fatality.
My insurance is "$1M smooth"
Combine all this with recent stories of medical bills for people with bad stuff in the $million range,
I got to thinking about what could happen and how to mitigate the risk to my assets.

Besides refusing to fly people or asking them to sign waivers.
And taking all reasonable precautions to fly good equipment, fly safely.

If I crash and have three people all with really serious injuries, my agent says the ins co will pay out $333,333 each and that's it. Further, she says no higher limits are available.

Whenever I inquire about it I am told an umbrella would not protect my personal assets or my small business in the event of an aviation incident.

Any ideas?

(whenever I'm told insurance cannot be purchased, I have to wonder if it is a really high risk situation!)
 
If this is the case, an LLC might be the best option to safeguard yourself.
 
If your insurer paid $333K each for three occupant's medical bills do you think you're finished? Those three occupants will probably have lawyers who believe you to be liable for more than medical expenses. You can sit around and come up with lots of improbable situations to support needing more insurance. Insurers must love that.
 
Stewartb said:
If your insurer paid $333K each for three occupant's medical bills do you think you're finished? Those three occupants will probably have lawyers who believe you to be liable for more than medical expenses. You can sit around and come up with lots of improbable situations to support needing more insurance. Insurers must love that.
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Couldn't you say they inherited the risk when they got in the plane?
 
ktup-flyer said:
Couldn't you say they inherited the risk when they got in the plane?
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You could. They, or their heirs might say otherwise. Unfortunately we live in one of, if the most, litigious countries in the world.
 
Ryanb said:
If this is the case, an LLC might be the best option to safeguard yourself.
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Wouldn't protect one much, if any, if they are the pilot, owner or maintenance person for the plane. The lawyers will sue them all, irregardless of what caused the accident.
 
Liability only on anything of ours older than 5 yrs and rarely have auto or plane passengers other than immediate family and CFI that flies EAB too. I dislike property/health insurance about as much as paying interest on a loan(interest-free since 2008).
 
Some pilots like to offer rides to anyone and everyone on facebook or at the airport. I used to think that would be awesome in flight training. Not anymore. I just open my gull-wing doors with "EXPERIMENTAL" in big black letters. See, you don't really want to fly with me in a plane my family helped me build in the garage.
 
Just got my new insurance for the new bird and they offered me an extra million for only a few hundred dollars more. Probably because I filled out the box "AOA Training" in the recent training experience
 
If you are the injured passenger your perspective after several months in the hospital will likely be different than in the moments when you climbed into your friend's plane. It's human nature. Big insurance policies pretty much assure legal action. Once the policy limits are exceeded it'll be your pot of gold that determines how hard they'll come after you. Some see insurance as protection. Some see it as bait. If you have assets worth protecting you should already have had a discussion with your attorney about how to protect them.
 
wayne said:
Wouldn't protect one much, if any, if they are the pilot, owner or maintenance person for the plane. The lawyers will sue them all, irregardless of what caused the accident.
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Wrong. The LLC avoids personal liability for any debts that may occur, which is strong protection in the event that extensive injury or deaths occur. Only the LLC is liable for the debts and liabilities. Lawyers can sue, but they can't go any further than the LLC. By having this, his personal assets and business would be covered, which is what he's wanting. If somebody gets hurt in his airplane, they can still come back and sue, it doesn't matter if he's the pilot or not.
 
So, no one can think of anything that might help?
Can't get higher limits
Umbrella won't help
LLC won't help

Still plan to fly people.
 
Ryanb said:
Wrong. The LLC avoids personal liability for any debts that may occur, which is strong protection in the event that extensive injury or deaths occur. Only the LLC is liable for the debts and liabilities. Lawyers can sue, but they can't go any further than the LLC. By having this, his personal assets and business would be covered, which is what he's wanting. If somebody gets hurt in his airplane, they can still come back and sue, it doesn't matter if he's the pilot or not.
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I don't think an LLC protects your personal assets from your own actions. It'll protect you from the actions of other members, but not your own negligence. If you were flyin it and your pocket be deep, some F. Lee Bailey wanna be is going to start drooling and go for it. You don't have to have actually been negligent. They just gotta convince a few jurors that they think someone else should have your money.
 
You can get more insurance. You just need to go outside of aviation insurers.
 
Stewartb said:
You can get more insurance. You just need to go outside of aviation insurers.
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Let me know who. Nobody I know will write liability policies that don't specifically exclude aviation other than your traditional aviation policies.
 
Ryanb said:
Wrong. The LLC avoids personal liability for any debts that may occur, which is strong protection in the event that extensive injury or deaths occur. Only the LLC is liable for the debts and liabilities. Lawyers can sue, but they can't go any further than the LLC. By having this, his personal assets and business would be covered, which is what he's wanting. If somebody gets hurt in his airplane, they can still come back and sue, it doesn't matter if he's the pilot or not.
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This is soooo NOT true.
 
luvflyin said:
I don't think an LLC protects your personal assets from your own actions. It'll protect you from the actions of other members, but not your own negligence. If you were flyin it and your pocket be deep, some F. Lee Bailey wanna be is going to start drooling and go for it. You don't have to have actually been negligent. They just gotta convince a few jurors that they think someone else should have your money.
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This is generally correct. An LLC is great when the airplane is in a partnership. It provides some protection for you if your partner takes a bunch of Young Eagles up and crashes into a school.

But if you are the one flying the airplane and you kill someone, an LLC won't do you a damn bit of good.
 
luvflyin said:
I don't think an LLC protects your personal assets from your own actions.
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That could be. I don't know how protection works if the LLC owner is negligent.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
But if you are the one flying the airplane and you kill someone, an LLC won't do you a damn bit of good.
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This is where I was flawed then with my theory. Otherwise, I'm not sure what was so untrue about my post.
 
Talk to your business insurance folks. When I asked they had two options, Lloyd's of London and one I can't remember. Too rich for my needs. It's cheaper to hire a 135 guy when I want to move people.
 
Ryanb said:
This is where I was flawed then with my theory. Otherwise, I'm not sure what was so untrue about my post.
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Sorry, it's not that your entire post was wrong, just that you seemed to be under the impression that the protections of an LLC would shield you if you were involved in an accident as the pilot operating the aircraft.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
So, no one can think of anything that might help?
Can't get higher limits
Umbrella won't help
LLC won't help

Still plan to fly people.
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Sell everything you got. Buy gold and get lotsa cash. Put under mattress. Pray that the bottom doesn't drop out of gold or inflation starts getting bad. Sorry, I don't know any real solutions
 
Now in my case I can't imagine any of the few people I've flown with would sue me, nor would their significant others be likely to. There are pockets of people in this world who still understand accidents happen even when people are doing their best and wouldn't act litigiously unless someone was being extremely negligent. I in fact have told my wife several times if anything happens to me as long as it was clearly an accident and the responsible party is remorseful not to sue or press any charges. People are imperfect and make mistakes.... and if we held everyone accountable for every little thing that might happen nobody would ever be able to do anything fun again.

That said, if you had an accident with a person like me you still aren't safe from lawsuit. Whatever isn't covered by your liability insurance will likely be picked up by the victim's health insurance.... and they can always sue you. Best bet is to fly as safely as possible, follow every best practice to avoid an accident and do so every time. Be damned sure if there ever is an accident that you've done everything reasonably possible to avoid it. At least that way there's a strong defense.... and hopefully... preferably.. there just aren't any accidents.
 
RV10flyer said:
Liability only on anything of ours older than 5 yrs and rarely have auto or plane passengers other than immediate family and CFI that flies EAB too. I dislike property/health insurance about as much as paying interest on a loan(interest-free since 2008).
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Do you not carry property and health insurance? I suppose if you have enough assets to cover a total loss or major health issue you might come out ahead if nothing major happens to you or your house. Otherwise, I guess there is always GoFundMe.
 
Ryanb said:
This is where I was flawed then with my theory. Otherwise, I'm not sure what was so untrue about my post.
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Maybe that your completely missed my point that the LLC could not protect you from your own actions that contributed or caused the accident.

As others have stated, the LLC can help insulate you from actions of others in your co-ownership.
 
cowman said:
I can't imagine any of the few people I've flown with would sue me, nor would their significant others be likely to.
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I am slightly worried about a victim's insurer (health or disability, perhaps others) looking to: first my insurance, then to me.
Tell me if that is impossible.
 
A lot depends on what you have. The more you have the more they will go after. Your 401Ks (unless considered excessive) and your home are protected in most states. At some point the lawyers are going to settle for what they can get because they want to get paid.
 
Just to put things in perspective in my state car insurance mins are bodily injury: $25,000 per person / $50,000 per accident, property damage $10,000.
 
A bit off topic, but a question about this subject. How does insurance work on a leaseback aircraft?
wayne said:
Maybe that your completely missed my point that the LLC could not protect you from your own actions that contributed or caused the accident.

As others have stated, the LLC can help insulate you from actions of others in your co-ownership.
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Apologies, I was not aware of each contingency.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I am slightly worried about a victim's insurer (health or disability, perhaps others) looking to: first my insurance, then to me.
Tell me if that is impossible.
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It's not impossible. In fact that is exactly what can happen. Your best friend who would never ever sue you has an insurance claim and his insurance comes after you to recoup their loss.
 
Ryanb said:
If this is the case, an LLC might be the best option to safeguard yourself.
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Nope, useless. Unless someone else is flying it and you're not on board.
 
RV10flyer said:
Liability only on anything of ours older than 5 yrs and rarely have auto or plane passengers other than immediate family and CFI that flies EAB too. I dislike property/health insurance about as much as paying interest on a loan(interest-free since 2008).
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So if you plow your 5 year old car that's worth $20000 into a telephone pole, you're willing to eat the repair (or take what it's worth in salvage) for the couple hundred bucks a year you would have paid for collision insurance?
 
DFH65 said:
Just to put things in perspective in my state car insurance mins are bodily injury: $25,000 per person / $50,000 per accident, property damage $10,000.
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Worthless. Pays for an ambulance ride and a broken arm.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It's not impossible. In fact that is exactly what can happen. Your best friend who would never ever sue you has an insurance claim and his insurance comes after you to recoup their loss.
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Precisely. That's why I asked that question. That is what this thread is all about. Thanks.
 
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