Instrument Written Holding Question

eetrojan

eetrojan

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eetrojan
OK, I have another potentially stupid question. As I study, one of the written questions asks for the appropriate entry for entering the hold on a missed approach (marked up figure below)

(Refer to figure 230.) During the VOR/DME or GPS-A missed approach at Baldwin Muni (7D3), what would be the appropriate entry for the holding?

A - Direct
B - Teardrop
C - Parallel
Click to expand...

Apparently, the correct answer is parallel.

Given that the hold has you intercepting radial R-345 and then flying to HOPPR on that radial, it seems like you'd be flying right on the border between parallel and teardrop. That said, why do you choose parallel over teardrop?

Aren't they both equally viable options?

Does the tie always go to parallel?

Figure132.jpg
 
What is your source for the 'correct' answer?

I agree with you that the 'correct' answer should be 'Teardrop' or 'Teardrop or Parallel' (even though that choice is not given). There should be no preferences when on the border.

When 'on the border' it is the pilot's choice. Actually since entries are non-regulatory it is always the pilot's choice :rolleyes:

Most of us will simply let Garmin tell us the 'right' answer as we approach the fix. :eek:

The FAA exams are littered with such inconsistencies and outright errors.
 
You asked why you would do the parallel entry over the teardrop?

My answer: Because the parallel would result in less maneuvering. LEFT, RIGHT to enter the hold. The teardrop would be LEFT, RIGHT, RIGHT.

2 turns versus 3.
 
DGlaeser said:
What is your source for the 'correct' answer?

I agree with you that the 'correct' answer should be 'Teardrop' or 'Teardrop or Parallel' (even though that choice is not given). There should be no preferences when on the border.

When 'on the border' it is the pilot's choice. Actually since entries are non-regulatory it is always the pilot's choice :rolleyes:

Most of us will simply let Garmin tell us the 'right' answer as we approach the fix. :eek:

The FAA exams are littered with such inconsistencies and outright errors.
Click to expand...

The Q&A are from Sheppard Air's preparation course.

Thanks for your thoughts!
 
I don't care what the book says. I would do a tear drop entry. Much easier. Gives you more time to get established on the inbound radial before you begin your right turn at the holding fix.
 
I was told that if your heading is within 5 degrees of two entry options, pick the one that requires the least amount of turns. I am also studying for my IFR written so good question!
 
coma24 said:
You asked why you would do the parallel entry over the teardrop?

My answer: Because the parallel would result in less maneuvering. LEFT, RIGHT to enter the hold. The teardrop would be LEFT, RIGHT, RIGHT.

2 turns versus 3.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I sort of thought of that... i.e. it might make sense to prioritize the parallel over the teardrop when you're coming in "on the border" from the fix end, because you'll fly straight through the fix and won't have to turn.

On the other hand, I think I once read that the teardrop is preferred over the parallel (though for holds-in-lieu near the final approach segment) because you'll get more time or distance to intercept the inbound course at a shallower angle.

If parallel is correct, this question sure seems sneaky because the arrow on the end of the dashed-line representing the missed approach course screams teardrop. It's only the "R-345 to HOPPR" text that gets you back to "on the border."
 
If you're already established on the 345 prior to HOPPR I'd say you are on the border. I always thought if within 5 degrees of the hold area it's the pilot's choice???
 
Triggerhappyjack said:
I was told that if your heading is within 5 degrees of two entry options, pick the one that requires the least amount of turns. I am also studying for my IFR written so good question!
Click to expand...

That "tie-breaker" makes sense too, but I'd love to see an FAA source if there is one.

Good luck on your test!
 
Velocity173 said:
If you're already established on the 345 prior to HOPPR I'd say you are on the border. I always thought if within 5 degrees of the hold area it's the pilot's choice???
Click to expand...
The hold entry is ALWAYS the pilot's choice. Remember these holding entries are only recommended. The pilot can enter any way he wants as long as he stays on the protected side and follows the holding procedure
 
Velocity173 said:
If you're already established on the 345 prior to HOPPR I'd say you are on the border. I always thought if within 5 degrees of the hold area it's the pilot's choice???
Click to expand...

I interpret the bolded part of the missed approach instructions as inherently requiring me to get established on the 345 radial.:

MISSED APPROACH: Climb to 2600, then left turn via the HIC VOR/DME R-345 to HOPPER/14 DME and hold.
Click to expand...

Also, since HOPPR is defined as a DME distance on R-345, my sense it that it would be tough fly direct to HOPPR without being established on the radial, unless you were using GPS.

If you were using GPS, would it be improper to climb to 2600, make a left turn, and simply track directly to HOPPR? I think so, but curious...
 
register@teamandras.com said:
If you were using GPS, would it be improper to climb to 2600, make a left turn, and simply track directly to HOPPR? I think so, but curious...
Click to expand...

I don't know the answer, but I would think that it would be improper because otherwise they would tell you to fly direct HOPPR. But someone else who knows, please chime in.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
If you were using GPS, would it be improper to climb to 2600, make a left turn, and simply track directly to HOPPR? I think so, but curious...
Click to expand...
You have to track to HOPPR via the 345 radial. If you begin a left turn and then hit direct to HOPPR you might not be established on 345 radial.
 
jordane93 said:
The hold entry is ALWAYS the pilot's choice. Remember these holding entries are only recommended. The pilot can enter any way he wants as long as he stays on the protected side and follows the holding procedure
Click to expand...

Sure the entry is always the pilots choice, but the FAA recommended entry is there to assist in remaining in the protected airspace.
 
Velocity173 said:
Sure the entry is always the pilots choice, but the FAA recommended entry is there to assist in remaining in the protected airspace.
Click to expand...

And for the test, and presumably for the practical exam too, you need to select the FAA-endorsed entries.

I'm still wondering what the FAA's official tie-breaker is when you're "on the border" between a P and a T.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
And for the test, and presumably for the practical exam too, you need to select the FAA-endorsed entries.

I'm still wondering what the FAA's official tie-breaker is when you're "on the border" between a P and a T.
Click to expand...
I believe the FAA allows the pilot to enter at his discretion.
 
jordane93 said:
I believe the FAA allows the pilot to enter at his discretion.
Click to expand...

Sounds reasonable, but that would lead me to believe that the question in Sheppard Air may be incorrect in its wording because it has two correct answers.
 
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register@teamandras.com said:
If you were using GPS, would it be improper to climb to 2600, make a left turn, and simply track directly to HOPPR? I think so, but curious...
Click to expand...
Yes, it would be incorrect, since you would not be doing what is called for in the procedure. And your IFR approach GPS should guide you accordingly.

As for which type of entry, the question/answer combination is inappropriate because both TD and P entries comply with the guidance in the AIM. But in the real world, if both entries would keep me inside the protected space, I'll do TD because that gets me intercepted back on the inbound course a lot farther out, no tht makes it all much easier.
 
FWIW, the only situation where I would do a parallel entry on that missed is if there were a very strong crosswind from the east and I doubted whether I could avoid being blown out of the protected airspace with a teardrop entry.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the actual FAA answer instead of a Sheppard error. A lot of their knowledge test questions are truly bad questions that do not test your knowledge of anything. Some are so badly phrased they don't even make sense, others refer to unreadable charts or do not have a uniquely correct answer, like this one.

Just make sure you know what your options really are, verify the answer that the FAA wants, and memorize it.
 
azure said:
FWIW, the only situation where I would do a parallel entry on that missed is if there were a very strong crosswind from the east and I doubted whether I could avoid being blown out of the protected airspace with a teardrop entry.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

azure said:
I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the actual FAA answer instead of a Sheppard error. A lot of their knowledge test questions are truly bad questions that do not test your knowledge of anything. Some are so badly phrased they don't even make sense, others refer to unreadable charts or do not have a uniquely correct answer, like this one.

Just make sure you know what your options really are, verify the answer that the FAA wants, and memorize it.
Click to expand...

Memory may or may not work in this instance.

It's my understanding that Sheppard encourages test takers to report back on the new questions that relate to the new figures in the 2014 Addendum. Since that means you have to memorize it and write it down as soon as you can after turning in your test, the wording of the question and possible answers passed on may be a little different than the actual ones.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes, it would be incorrect, since you would not be doing what is called for in the procedure. And your IFR approach GPS should guide you accordingly.

As for which type of entry, the question/answer combination is inappropriate because both TD and P entries comply with the guidance in the AIM. But in the real world, if both entries would keep me inside the protected space, I'll do TD because that gets me intercepted back on the inbound course a lot farther out, no tht makes it all much easier.
Click to expand...

Thank you Ron.
 
There were back when I took the written a few questions that just couldn't be answered (doesn't anybody at the FAA proofread these things by actually trying to take the tests as PUBLISHED?). It was my understanding if you got one of these questions on the test, you got a pass on it.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Also, since HOPPR is defined as a DME distance on R-345, my sense it that it would be tough fly direct to HOPPR without being established on the radial, unless you were using GPS.
Click to expand...

Did no one teach you the pencil trick? (Which I think I read somewhere we're not supposed to use it anymore?)
 
Banjo33 said:
Did no one teach you the pencil trick? (Which I think I read somewhere we're not supposed to use it anymore?)
Click to expand...

I just Googled the pencil trick. Actually, I do know that, but I think of it as the "thumb trick" (I mentally lift the horizontal line by 20 degrees with my right thumb for right turns, and with my left thumb for left turns). It wouldn't help with this knowledge exam problem, though, because there's no HSI.

If there was an HSI, and you used the pencil method, would that resolve the ambiguity between P and TD somehow?
 
FWIW, it looks like the test writer may have interpreted the "climbing left turn" part of the MA while looking at Fig 10-6 of the Inst Flying Hdbk and thought being on the left side of the holding pattern meant the pilot should continue the left turn all the way until established in the holding pattern crossing HOPPR [after the course reversal]. Which would be a parallel entry over... 6NM or so.

Stupid question, though. Agree in real life just pick an entry and DO IT.
 
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flyingron said:
There were back when I took the written a few questions that just couldn't be answered (doesn't anybody at the FAA proofread these things by actually trying to take the tests as PUBLISHED?). It was my understanding if you got one of these questions on the test, you got a pass on it.
Click to expand...


I have seen credit for one of these "gimme" questions before, since I took the stupid instrument written three times and passed it each time. It was marked as not scored on the final result sheet.

The problem is, to get them onto that status, someone has to report them. That means at least some people will not bother and miss them until someone who cares takes extra time out of their day to go fix the FAA's screwup.

And let's say I'd bothered to memorize which question it was, that I knew couldn't be answered correctly, and then I walk out and get a note in the scoresheet that it didn't count anyway...?

Waste of f---ing time by people who could easily fix it up front with only slightly more effort.

Why they don't just remove the damn things from the question pool altogether when they're reported and confirmed is beyond me. It's obviously a left over from printed test books.

The test center software can't possibly be smart enough to be able to tell you the question ended up a "gimme", but not smart enough to simply remove it from the pool. Sheesh. It's a freaking computer, not a printed piece of paper. Just send out an update and delete the damn thing.

They're so stuck in the 1950s it's beyond annoying, it's just sad. But hey...

ADS-B is so slow it still can only send you METARs instead of, oh... Plain text. That'd be way too modern. LOL. Yay old crap!

(Cue some one here posting his opinion that he loves METARs for their brevity and consistency, because they had to learn them... While every other hobby on the planet switched to weather described in English with even upper and lower case and punctuation decades ago. Hell, I bet boaters, race car drivers, and the like, can get it in a choice of languages, even. But we just have to stick to tradition and teletype shorthand in aviation, the place where technology goes to die inside a "certification" process that lasts years and multiplies the cost by 10.)

So yeah... Taking the written three times, not recommended. Ha. It just serves to annoy at how outdated and useless most of the material is, and highlights the awful wording and bad questions that are meaningless.

Best to go get the flying done so you don't get two extra shots at being totally annoyed at the hideous quality level of the test you're taking that is supposedly important information you need to stay alive, but is sprinkled with stupid RMI questions from the mid-1970s... And even then, stupid stuff like "which way do you turn the knob" when in the real world, there's instant feedback if you turned it the wrong way, and your fingers will naturally just reverse when your eyeballs see the needle going the wrong direction.

:)
 
denverpilot said:
Why they don't just remove the damn things from the question pool altogether when they're reported and confirmed is beyond me. It's obviously a left over from printed test books.
Click to expand...
I'm not so sure about that. I got, and posted about one that was not in any of the study materials so I assume it was new. It was about instrument currency requirements and was so confusingly worded, and the only choices that weren't obviously wrong had such utterly stupid, ambiguous wording involving "required iterations and repetitions" that I ended up just giving up and guessing. I got it wrong, of course, though I think I understand the currency requirements pretty well. Questions worded so that you have to be a code-breaker to decipher them seem to be something the FAA cranks out quite regularly and, I can only assume, quite intentionally, up until at least two years ago. I doubt they've changed their ways since, though I'd love to be proved wrong on that.
 
olasek said:
I know for fact you can't fail the practical test by choosing incorrect entry - provided you don't stray into unprotected side.
Click to expand...
If by "stray into unprotected side" you mean cross over onto the nonholding side of the holding course, that's still OK as long as you don't leave the protected airspace, which extends a few miles on the nonholding side of the holding course.
Explains and uses an entry procedure that ensures the
aircraft remains within the holding pattern airspace for a​
standard, nonstandard, published, or nonpublished holding​
pattern.
Click to expand...
And, of course, if you go too far on the holding side, you still bust there, too, but obviously you have a couple of miles more protected space on the holding side than on the nonholding side of the holding course to allow for the displacement of the outbound leg by the turn radius.
 
Figure132.jpg


Never been a fan of using that template to figure the entry out, I just look at the thing and figure it out. Long as you are on the protected side it doesn't really matter much.

But looking at it, I'd say teardrop is what I would do, I'd also wager that's what a Garmin would sequence up.
 
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James331 said:
Move never been a fan of using that template to figure the entry out, I just look at the thing and figure it out. Long as you are on the protected side it doesn't really matter much.
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You don't have to be "on the protected side", only within the protected airspace, which extends a few miles on the nonholding side of the holding course. For example, it is perfectly normal to be a mile or so off on the nonholding side while executing a parallel entry at a pretty steep arrival angle.

But looking at it, I'd say teardrop is what I would do,
Click to expand...
Me, too.

I'd also wager that's what a Garmin would sequence up.
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Depends on how accurately you fly the track to the holding fix. The slightest displacement off the arrival course line towards the holding side will result in a parallel entry being directed by the Garmins. What it would do if you were exactly on the arrival course line is probably something only the people who wrote the software could tell you, but I don't think it's likely you'd really have absolutely zero cross-track error.
 
Ron Levy said:
You don't have to be "on the protected side", only within the protected airspace, which extends a few miles on the nonholding side of the holding course. For example, it is perfectly normal to be a mile or so off on the nonholding side while executing a parallel entry at a pretty steep arrival angle.

Me, too.

Depends on how accurately you fly the track to the holding fix. The slightest displacement off the arrival course line towards the holding side will result in a parallel entry being directed by the Garmins. What it would do if you were exactly on the arrival course line is probably something only the people who wrote the software could tell you, but I don't think it's likely you'd really have absolutely zero cross-track error.
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If you have the A/P flying it, I'd wager you're going to be doing a teardrop.
 
James331 said:
If you have the A/P flying it, I'd wager you're going to be doing a teardrop.
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Depends on the autopilot and whether you have GPSS. Some, like the Century II/III, almost always stabilize on the downwind side of the course line when in NAV mode. So, if you want to make that bet, you should not give too steep odds. In any event, it's far from a certainty, and I've seen it command a parallel in that situation enough times to be confident of that statement.
 
Ron Levy said:
Depends on the autopilot and whether you have GPSS. Some, like the Century II/III, almost always stabilize on the downwind side of the course line when in NAV mode. So, if you want to make that bet, you should not give too steep odds. In any event, it's far from a certainty, and I've seen it command a parallel in that situation enough times to be confident of that statement.
Click to expand...

Ether of the two planes I fly would, GNS with Stec and GPSS, and GNS with KFC 325 and GPSS.

..as would most good IFR rigs.

Only century autopilots Ive seen were inoped, or only good enough for VFR cross counties, nothing Id trust single pilot IMC.
 
James331 said:
***
Never been a fan of using that template to figure the entry out, I just look at the thing and figure it out. Long as you are on the protected side it doesn't really matter much.

But looking at it, I'd say teardrop is what I would do, I'd also wager that's what a Garmin would sequence up.
Click to expand...

I don't really use that template to determine my entry, but I added it to the figure so that everybody would understand where I understood myself to be ("on the border" between P & TD) when trying to answer the question.

After a bunch of practice, I can usually just "see" the one correct entry based on a mental picture of the holding pattern and the aircraft's bearing to the fix, but sometimes I need to work a little harder to decide between two possible entries.

For me at least, it's easy to distinguish between Parallel and Teardrop when the entry is close to the border, but it's a bit more difficult for me when the entry is close to the border between Parallel and Direct or between Teardrop and Direct.
 
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Richard L.Taylor in his excellent book Instrument Flying provides the following simpler formula for entering a hold, I quote:

When you arrive at the holding fix, turn in the shorter direction to the heading that parallels the holding course. Fly outbound for not more than one minute, proceed direct to the holding fix and start the racetrack in the appropriate direction....
 
olasek said:
Richard L.Taylor in his excellent book Instrument Flying provides the following simpler formula for entering a hold, I quote:

When you arrive at the holding fix, turn in the shorter direction to the heading that parallels the holding course. Fly outbound for not more than one minute, proceed direct to the holding fix and start the racetrack in the appropriate direction....
Click to expand...

Or just have situational awareness and look at it, using formulas and circles and what not just make a simple matter confusing IMO
 
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