Inadvertent regulation error

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What do you do if you bust a reg without realizing it at the time and it's too late to file a NASA form? The bust wasn't witnesses by the feds, but you logged it before you realized it. For a hypothetical example, you flew with a passenger on a night flight but weren't night current. It's the sort of thing that will PROBABLY never come back to haunt you unless the feds are already picking through your log book with a fine toothed comb. Do you modify the entry so it doesn't show the error? Do you call the FAA and self-report after calling an aviation lawyer? Do you just never sign that page of the log book? Do you just hope no one ever digs deeply enough into the log book to find out?

I really dislike the first option, because the idea of compounding an inadvertent mistake with an intentional falsification is just WRONG. So, do you do option 2 or option 3, or another option?
 
That's a really tough question. I would gather the best option is to continue to log your flights like normal, and just not make the mistake again. If you are audited for some reason, prepare to take the lumps, but DO NOT falsify the entry.
 
Unregistered said:
What do you do if you bust a reg without realizing it at the time and it's too late to file a NASA form? The bust wasn't witnesses by the feds, but you logged it before you realized it. For a hypothetical example, you flew with a passenger on a night flight but weren't night current. It's the sort of thing that will PROBABLY never come back to haunt you unless the feds are already picking through your log book with a fine toothed comb. Do you modify the entry so it doesn't show the error? Do you call the FAA and self-report after calling an aviation lawyer? Do you just never sign that page of the log book? Do you just hope no one ever digs deeply enough into the log book to find out?

I really dislike the first option, because the idea of compounding an inadvertent mistake with an intentional falsification is just WRONG. So, do you do option 2 or option 3, or another option?
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Maybe the lesson learned here is to not log occurences that are not required to be logged.
 
First, DO NOT change anything in your log. Do not alter any entry. Leave it as it is. Falsification of a record will kill your privileges faster than most anything else could do surrounding this issue.

Second, get night current. Immediately. Properly log it.

Third, file the NASA ASRS form. Even if you think it's too late, tis better to file the form. The best, nothing will come of it. To my knowledge, there's no limit on when you can file but if it's done after FAA action is begun, it won't do much good.

Last, develop a means of remind yourself to get current as required.
 
KennyFlys said:
Meaning?
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Don't write that you had passengers. You can still write "no passengers" on the ones that you're required to have no passengers., like the long commercial XC.

I keep my logbook entries *very* simple. I don't want my own logbook to be used against me.
 
jesse said:
Don't write that you had passengers. You can still write "no passengers" on the ones that you're required to have no passengers., like the long commercial XC.

I keep my logbook entries *very* simple. I don't want my own logbook to be used against me.
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Agreed. But, I wasn't then and am still not sure that's what he meant.
 
KennyFlys said:
Agreed. But, I wasn't then and am still not sure that's what he meant.
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I think he meant that you're not required to log anything so long as you don't need the time to show currency or to get a new rating/certificate. And you're certainly not required to stipulate the number of passengers you had (or that you had pax, period), so either leave the fact that you were carrying people out or just leave the flight out of your logbook entirely. Still file the report if you're worried, but beyond that there's not much you can really do.
 
I have never logged whether or not I had passengers. It never would have occurred to me to do so.
 
steingar said:
I have never logged whether or not I had passengers. It never would have occurred to me to do so.
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That was my first thought, how would any one know you had PAX on board by reading your log book?
 
Because when you're the sole occupant of the airplane, that's SOLO time as defined in 61.51(d).

I've logged and reported my solo time since I started flying, and still do. So it would be easy to tell in my logbook if I had someone else in the plane, and whether or not that someone was a crewman or an instructor or a passenger.

I always figured that if I was gonna log a flight at all I'd log it as accurately as I could. And since the various folks (FAA, Insurers, Employers) all wanted to know how much solo time I had even long after I had my private, I keep logging solo time as appropriate.
 
mikea said:
Is that a requirement?
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I don't think it's a requirement. The word MAY is used. But perhaps someone (other than me) would argue that if you choose to log the flight at all, that you must log the solo time, since it's one of those things defined in 61.51.

As for me, I don't care what anybody logs, and I won't care until I'm getting paid to do so as an instructor, examiner, or inspector. Then I'll care according to the instructions I'm given.
 
There is nothing you can do now. Any alteration to your logbook will be a red flag for anyone who looks for it. Ditto an unsigned page ("Is there a reason you didn't sign this page? How about signing it now? You don't want to do that? Why not?"). You're apparently long past the point of an ASRS report providing waiver of sanction. Confessing to the FAA will only put this on your record unnecessarily. Hiring a lawyer to negotiate a deal would be much the same. If the only thing involved is a log entry which, if investigated enough, would show a technical violation, your best bet is to just remember not to do it again. Further, any inspection of your logbook by the FAA will start the 180-day "stale complaint" clock ticking -- after that, they can't touch you. So when was the last time your log was examined, say, on a practical test?

Now, don't forget about it (let's learn something from the mistake), just go and sin no more. And don't be one of the wicked who flee where no man pursueth -- this ain't worth losin' sleep over.
 
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NC19143 said:
WHY?.
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You need to have some solo XC logged to take the commercial checkride. But I didn't log all my solo time as solo, just enough to qualify and that wasn't hard to do without putting solo down for a flight that wasn't.
 
Sounds like an honest mistake...

I personally do not log whether I have pax or not because it's not important to me...but if the flight was IFR, the "Man" already knows...

The 180 day clock is ticking....
 
I think the realistic answer is that the FAA has much bigger things to worry about than an oops like that, especially when nothing happened. I'm sure you'll be more careful next time.
 
Kelvin said:
I personally do not log whether I have pax or not because it's not important to me...but if the flight was IFR, the "Man" already knows...

The 180 day clock is ticking....
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Not until the FAA sees the logbook. The clock doesn't start until the FAA finds out about the violation, which they cannot know for logbook currency violations until they see the book, and yes, this one's been tested before, involving a landing currency charge on a flight like 10 years prior discovered on logbook check for a practical test -- ATP, I think, although I suspect they were already suspicious about the applicant's flight time to have checked in that detail.
 
Unregistered said:
The bust wasn't witnesses by the feds, but you logged it before you realized it.

or another option?
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I vote for option 4. Get a new logbook, and transfer the total hours over. The only time you'll need the old book is if you're going for a new rating, and your 'new' logbook doesn't contain all the requirements.

I think the feds are going to have a really hard time convincing me to search high and low for my old logbook. Something along the lines of a court order would do.
 
Steve Foley said:
I vote for option 4. Get a new logbook, and transfer the total hours over. The only time you'll need the old book is if you're going for a new rating, and your 'new' logbook doesn't contain all the requirements.

I think the feds are going to have a really hard time convincing me to search high and low for my old logbook. Something along the lines of a court order would do.
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I think that's a horrible idea, and I strongly recommend to the OP to avoid doing this.
 
TMetzinger said:
Because when you're the sole occupant of the airplane, that's SOLO time as defined in 61.51(d).

I've logged and reported my solo time since I started flying,
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Dude, you are making this up . There is absolutely no requirement to do this .
 
Unregistered said:
What do you do if you bust a reg without realizing it at the time and it's too late to file a NASA form? The bust wasn't witnesses by the feds, but you logged it before you realized it. For a hypothetical example, you flew with a passenger on a night flight but weren't night current. It's the sort of thing that will PROBABLY never come back to haunt you unless the feds are already picking through your log book with a fine toothed comb. Do you modify the entry so it doesn't show the error? Do you call the FAA and self-report after calling an aviation lawyer? Do you just never sign that page of the log book? Do you just hope no one ever digs deeply enough into the log book to find out?
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1. Dont call the Feds . Why incriminate yourself ?
2. The Feds will never find out about this unless you tell them .
3. They probably wouldnt care anyways .
4. Call your lawyer (Not the people at AOPA , They are no help ) , he/she will probably just chuckle and tell you not to worry about it .
5. Do NOT trust any legal advise you get on these boards .
 
Unregistered said:
Dude, you are making this up . There is absolutely no requirement to do this .
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Dude, did I say there was a requirement? I just said that I have logged my solo time. Because of this, it would be hard for me to pretend there was nobody in the airplane if I logged no solo time.

Some of my flight entries have less solo time than total time, because I dropped a friend somewhere.

You can log whatever the heck you want.
 
TMetzinger said:
Because when you're the sole occupant of the airplane, that's SOLO time as defined in 61.51(d).

I've logged and reported my solo time since I started flying, and still do. So it would be easy to tell in my logbook if I had someone else in the plane, and whether or not that someone was a crewman or an instructor or a passenger.

I always figured that if I was gonna log a flight at all I'd log it as accurately as I could. And since the various folks (FAA, Insurers, Employers) all wanted to know how much solo time I had even long after I had my private, I keep logging solo time as appropriate.
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I know that I never logged time as solo until I started working on my commercial, where you have to have a number of hours of solo cross country time. It wasn't too hard, though, to remember which flights were solo and mark them accordingly.

Ron Levy said:
Now, don't forget about it (let's learn something from the mistake), just go and sin no more. And don't be one of the wicked who flee where no man pursueth -- this ain't worth losin' sleep over.
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I love that line!:D
Steve Foley said:
I vote for option 4. Get a new logbook, and transfer the total hours over. The only time you'll need the old book is if you're going for a new rating, and your 'new' logbook doesn't contain all the requirements.

I think the feds are going to have a really hard time convincing me to search high and low for my old logbook. Something along the lines of a court order would do.
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I agree with Nick that this is a Bad Idea. It's in line with the OP's Option 1, which he already said he didn't like. Way too close to an "intentional falsification." It doesn't pass the smell test.
 
TMetzinger said:
Dude, did I say there was a requirement? I just said that I have logged my solo time. Because of this, it would be hard for me to pretend there was nobody in the airplane if I logged no solo time.

Some of my flight entries have less solo time than total time, because I dropped a friend somewhere.
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Who do you fly for and what equipment allows you to fly both with a crewmember and solo ? I used to fly a turboprop that I had a single pilot type in but the operation (135) required two pilots . I logged both "Solo" and "135" as PIC not solo . Also , who do you "Report " your time to ?
I think you were just making that up .
 
Are you ok? I'm talking about flying part 91 GA in light singles and twins.

I fly with my wife to see her folks. That flight no solo is logged, just PIC, as I've got pax.
While we're there, I go do some pattern work by myself, and that time is logged as solo as well as PIC.
I fly up with a safety pilot, that's not solo either, as I'm not the sole occupant.

Who do I report my time to?
The FAA, when I submit a new app for a rating or certificate.
The insurance companies - when I submit my experience for insurance coverage.
The airlines, when I submit an application. Last one I looked at was Colgan Air, and they had a form looking just like an 8710, with a block for solo and cross-country solo.

SOLO and PIC are not mutually exclusive. In fact you used to log your student solo time as Solo but not PIC, but now you log both solo AND PIC for your student solo time.

I'm not aware of any rule requiring you to log solo outside of that required for a rating or certificate, but that's not the same as saying you shouldn't log it. Many of the pilot logbooks I've seen have solo logged for solo time, and nobody's looked weird at me when I report many hundred hours of solo time.
 
TMetzinger said:
A

I fly with my wife to see her folks. That flight no solo is logged, just PIC, as I've got pax.
While we're there, I go do some pattern work by myself, and that time is logged as solo as well as PIC.
I fly up with a safety pilot, that's not solo either, as I'm not the sole occupant.
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This is the part you are making up . And yes , I am fine (Thanks for asking ).
 
I wonder what part of this you don't understand. If you're the sole occupant of the airplane, you may log solo time. If you're not, you may not.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not until the FAA sees the logbook. The clock doesn't start until the FAA finds out about the violation, which they cannot know for logbook currency violations until they see the book, and yes, this one's been tested before, involving a landing currency charge on a flight like 10 years prior discovered on logbook check for a practical test -- ATP, I think, although I suspect they were already suspicious about the applicant's flight time to have checked in that detail.
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OK gotcha...file that nugget away...
 
TMetzinger said:
Who do I report my time to?
The FAA, when I submit a new app for a rating or certificate.
The insurance companies - when I submit my experience for insurance coverage.
The airlines, when I submit an application. Last one I looked at was Colgan Air, and they had a form looking just like an 8710, with a block for solo and cross-country solo.
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The FAA , Airlines , and insurance companies ask about PIC and SIC time . It doesnt matter to any of them if you have passengers or not . Also , ( in regards to the OP ), the FAA only needs to see enough logged time to qualify for a particular rating .
You are reading the App wrong ;) .
 
Unregistered said:
The FAA , Airlines , and insurance companies ask about PIC and SIC time . It doesnt matter to any of them if you have passengers or not . Also , ( in regards to the OP ), the FAA only needs to see enough logged time to qualify for a particular rating .
You are reading the App wrong ;) .
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Look at the 8710 form... tell me there's no block for solo on it.
 
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