Inadvertent regulation error

They just might be referring to a different type of solo . [G]
Really? There's a different type of solo than being the sole occupant of the aircraft? Or, do you think it's one in the same as PIC as so many do?

And, why are you hiding behind the "Unregistered" tag? Afraid to show your face, so to speak? So much for your credibility.
 
And, why are you hiding behind the "Unregistered" tag? Afraid to show your face, so to speak? So much for your credibility.

Ken, why do you have to accuse people of hiding ? So far these unregistered posters are more relevant and correct than Timothy . I am unregistered because I dont post here but I do peruse this board a few times a year . My name is Kirk M. and I am a 21 year airline guy currently at DAL . If you want I can PM you with my full contact info .
I have filled out several airline apps in my time and even conducted interviews at my old airline . Also , I have insured every GA plane I have owned and I have never ever seen this addressed in any way shape or form . Why are you guys arguing about this . Furthermore , based on his posts , I doubt Timothy is a profesional pilot .
Kirk
 
Timothy has never claimed to be an airline pilot. Timothy claims to be what he is - a pilot with a commercial certificate who does occasional ferry work. Timothy also claims to have logged solo time since he started flying and has reported it (along with all the other time) to the FAA via 8710 form, and to the insurance companies via letter when asked, usually to be added as a named insured for a ferry job.

Timothy has NEVER claimed that the FAA requires you to log solo time outside of that needed for a rating or certificate, and Timothy has also NEVER claimed that the insurance companies REQUIRE you to report solo time. Timothy merely claims that he has reported said solo time to the companies and on his flying resume (as part of his block of flight time). Timothy also logs and reports the time spent flying TAA and G1000 systems because that's relevant when looking for coverage to ferry an airplane like that.

Timothy can see where Kirk might be confused - in post 15 I also said "... And since the various folks (FAA, Insurers, Employers) all wanted to know how much solo time I had even long after I had my private...". Timothy was referring to the 8710 form (where there are two explicit blocks for solo time) and the fact that Timothy routinely just dumps out a list that looks like this:
HOURS:
LANDINGS DAY:
LANDINGS NIGHT:
CROSS COUNTRY:
SOLO:
PIC:
SIC:
DUAL:
NIGHT:
INSTRUMENT:
SIMULATED INSTR...:
SIMULATOR:
Approaches:
Complex:
High Performance:
Multi-Engine Land
Single-Engine Land
G1000
GFC700
B-737/200
DC-3
BE33
C172
C182
C172RG
C182RG
C206
DA20
DA40
M20C
M20J
M20R
OMF-100-160
PA28-161
PA-28-180
PA28-181
PA44
TB10
TB20
TB21
TB9
Whenever someone asks about Timothy's time. Broken up into three or four columns it takes up just a couple of inches on a resume or letter.

Timothy's sole point on this thread was that someone looking at Timothy's logbook could do a good job of determining when Timothy was the sole occupant of the airplane, because solo time has been consistently logged. This is what led to "it would be easy to tell in my logbook if I had someone else in the plane, and whether or not that someone was a crewman or an instructor or a passenger" in post #15.

I'm Timothy, and I approved this message.
 
Greg, are you really asking for the difference between solo and PIC?

You can't log solo without also logging PIC (normally - see airship caveat below)
You can log PIC without logging solo.

They're not mutually exclusive for logging - you may certainly log both SOLO AND PIC if you're the sole occupant of an airplane. There's nothing that REQUIRES you to log Solo time if you're not using it for a cert or rating, but you MAY log solo time any time you're alone in an airplane, or (as a real nitpicker would point out):
"...a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember..."

I go fly somewhere by myself, I may log solo and PIC. I make the same trip with my family, I may log PIC but not solo.
 
Explain the difference.
I think Kenny was saying that PIC time can be subdivided into those times when the pilot is the only person aboard the airplane (solo) and when there are others aboard the airplane (non-solo).
I would read his statement to imply that some pilots erroneously think that solo time is acting PIC when you are the only pilot aboard the aircraft. As those on this board know, however, unless that other pilot is of the non-human variety, that cannot be solo time.

Edit: Okay, Tim beat me to it. :)
 
Explain the difference.

Greg, are you really asking for the difference between solo and PIC?

You can't log solo without also logging PIC (normally - see airship caveat below)
You can log PIC without logging solo.

They're not mutually exclusive for logging - you may certainly log both SOLO AND PIC if you're the sole occupant of an airplane. There's nothing that REQUIRES you to log Solo time if you're not using it for a cert or rating, but you MAY log solo time any time you're alone in an airplane, or (as a real nitpicker would point out):
"...a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember..."

I go fly somewhere by myself, I may log solo and PIC. I make the same trip with my family, I may log PIC but not solo.
What he said!

It's a pain to separate out on advanced students with substantially more flight time when it comes to completing the IACRA.
 
Ken, why do you have to accuse people of hiding ? So far these unregistered posters are more relevant and correct than Timothy . I am unregistered because I dont post here but I do peruse this board a few times a year . My name is Kirk M. and I am a 21 year airline guy currently at DAL . If you want I can PM you with my full contact info .
I have filled out several airline apps in my time and even conducted interviews at my old airline . Also , I have insured every GA plane I have owned and I have never ever seen this addressed in any way shape or form . Why are you guys arguing about this . Furthermore , based on his posts , I doubt Timothy is a profesional pilot .
Kirk
I find it odd someone would make strong statements and simply not join the board. Also, there have been those in the past who were signed up on the board with a verified email but... would never identify themselves beyond that email and never more than a first name or even just a nick name. They were later shown to be... well, less than honest about their experience and capabilities.

So, pardon those of us who take any posts with a grain of Iranian sand until one has proved themselves on the boards. And, to say one isn't a professional without knowing them... that doesn't quite help the case. You might come to say I'm not a professional. But then, I may be found to refuse a flight review endorsement because I'm not comfortable with one's attitude about flying. Would you be such a pilot; professional or not?
 
Greg, are you really asking for the difference between solo and PIC?

Ken made this statement:

Or, do you think it's one in the same as PIC as so many do?

My point is that solo time IS in fact the same as PIC time. PIC time may or may not be Solo time, but that isn't how the statement was worded.

Bottom line is that solo time is only relevant to the rating being applied for. After one has all the ratings s/he wants, solo time is irrelevant.
 
Timothy has never claimed to be an airline pilot.

This is Kirk M and now I am really confused . Your flight time grid (If this is what you actually use ) makes no sense . For example , isnt G1000 an instrument panel ? How do you claim to have time in the 737 and DC3 and yet you are not an airline pilot ? You should not claim qualifications that you dont have because a potential employer will probably see right through this . I can see where Mr Unregistered accused you of making stuff up .
Kirk
 
My point is that solo time IS in fact the same as PIC time. PIC time may or may not be Solo time, but that isn't how the statement was worded.

Bottom line is that solo time is only relevant to the rating being applied for. After one has all the ratings s/he wants, solo time is irrelevant.
Agreed.

The difference often gets misplaced. That's all I was getting at.
 
This is Kirk M and now I am really confused . Your flight time grid (If this is what you actually use ) makes no sense . For example , isnt G1000 an instrument panel ? How do you claim to have time in the 737 and DC3 and yet you are not an airline pilot ? You should not claim qualifications that you dont have because a potential employer will probably see right through this . I can see where Mr Unregistered accused you of making stuff up .
Kirk

Once again, you should get to know the man before you send him to the firing squad. Is the ONLY way in this known universe to get 737 and DC3 time by flying for the airline? Me thinks not. And what does the G1000 have to do with anything (there are planes that have a G1000, and planes that don't...often times "people" will want to know if you have experience in the former). Tim has a considerable amount of knowledge and experience that is certainly beyond my level, that involves operating in many different types of aircraft, and never having to subject himself to the airline lifestyle.
 
Ken made this statement:





Bottom line is that solo time is only relevant to the rating being applied for. After one has all the ratings s/he wants, solo time is irrelevant.

Well put . I think this is the crux of the argument . Timothy seems to think airlines , underwriters and the FAA are interested in this . Based on the fact that its never come up in my career I tend to agree with Unregistered .
 
Well put . I think this is the crux of the argument . Timothy seems to think airlines , underwriters and the FAA are interested in this . Based on the fact that its never come up in my career I tend to agree with Unregistered .
For low time pilots being considered, I think it would be considered. How much has the candidate flown without the presence of an instructor or other experienced pilot offering instruction or advice on some level? Was the experience built on their own or constantly monitored?
 
Once again, you should get to know the man before you send him to the firing squad. Is the ONLY way in this known universe to get 737 and DC3 time by flying for the airline? Me thinks not.
OOPs I may have overstated my position . Apologies to you and Tim . I reread his post and I think I get it now . It is interesting that DAL parked all the 200s and I spent more time than I care to recall on the 737. If he is a ferry pilot there is a chance we have flown the same airplanes . I did two retirement flights myself to Victorville CA and we had an entire ramp full of 200s and 300s and 767-200s parked there . I know what happened to the 767s and the 300s , but what about the 200s ? Did Timothy have a hand in these .
Curious and not hiding behind "Unregistered"
Kirk
 
For example , isnt G1000 an instrument panel ?

Yes, but some insurance companies may ask about that, especially if the pilot wants insurance in an airplane so equipped. Has no value on an 8710, however.

How do you claim to have time in the 737 and DC3 and yet you are not an airline pilot ?

Some airlines have in the past offered sim time for a fee. He could have purchased an hour and if the instructor was a CFI, then he could have a legit entry for that. Granted, it is sim time, not the real airplane time, but I imagine there are outfits that would sell you an hour or two of actual plane time if you want to spend the money.

As far as the DC-3 thing, there are people that offer DC-3 SIC and PIC types that have nothing to do with the airlines.

You should not claim qualifications that you dont have because a potential employer will probably see right through this.

What qualifications is he claiming? Logged flight time does not necessarily imply qualifications, just logged time.

I can see where Mr Unregistered accused you of making stuff up .
Kirk

Yeah, well. You can accuse all you want. It does not necessarily make it so.
 
I used to fly a turboprop that I had a single pilot type in but the operation (135) required two pilots . I logged both "Solo" and "135" as PIC not solo .
Pray the FAA never gets hold of your logbook -- it will lead them to question things you don't want questioned, like how you got your solo time for your Private and Commercial tickets. Solo means "sole living human occupant." You can't legally log solo time in an airplane with a second pilot aboard, even if the second pilot is required. See 61.51(d).
 
The FAA , Airlines , and insurance companies ask about PIC and SIC time . It doesnt matter to any of them if you have passengers or not .
The FAA most certainly cares when you're presenting a logbook or 8710-1 for a certificate/rating requiring "solo" experience. Suggest a read through 61.109, 61.129, and 61.51(d), where that is clearly stated. Presenting flight time as "solo" time when someone else was in the airplane is a fraudulent application for a certificate/rating requiring solo time. If the airline pilot in Dallas wants to PM me to get a fuller explanation, he should feel free. While I don't fly for an airline (and never have), I've been teaching this stuff for over 35 years.

And note I said "airplane" -- there is a singular exception in 61.51(d) for Student Pilots in dirigibles, but I don't think we're talking about the Goodyear blimp here.
 
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Yes, but some insurance companies may ask about that, especially if the pilot wants insurance in an airplane so equipped. Has no value on an 8710, however.
Additionally, many FBOs require x number of hours G1000 time before renting you a G1000 airplane. I know Westwind (KDVT) did when I rented from them.
 
Pray the FAA never gets hold of your logbook -- it will lead them to question things you don't want questioned, like how you got your solo time for your Private and Commercial tickets. Solo means "sole living human occupant." You can't legally log solo time in an airplane with a second pilot aboard, even if the second pilot is required. See 61.51(d).

Ron, I THINK maybe you misinterpreted the post.

I used to fly a turboprop that I had a single pilot type in but the operation (135) required two pilots . I logged both "Solo" and "135" as PIC not solo .

The way I see it, he was logging PIC and Solo as PIC, not as solo. In other words, he was not logging solo time at all.

Of course, I could be misunderstanding it too.
 
Pray the FAA never gets hold of your logbook -- it will lead them to question things you don't want questioned, like how you got your solo time for your Private and Commercial tickets. Solo means "sole living human occupant." You can't legally log solo time in an airplane with a second pilot aboard, even if the second pilot is required. See 61.51(d).
You are beating a dead horse . If a pilot has a single pilot type he/she can log 91 or 135 or even 121 time as PIC (Even when a SIC is required. Go back and read GBs post .
Kirk
P.S. Has the FAA ever ask YOU to verify your time ?
 
Ken made this statement:



My point is that solo time IS in fact the same as PIC time. PIC time may or may not be Solo time, but that isn't how the statement was worded.

Bottom line is that solo time is only relevant to the rating being applied for. After one has all the ratings s/he wants, solo time is irrelevant.
I agree, but I will probably continue to log solo time, it does help me differentiate when I was alone. It might be useful later to see if I fly more actual when solo then with passengers, for instance. Everyone else is certainly free to log (or not) solo time as they see fit. When I start teaching I will ensure my students log their solo time as needed, and then let them make up their own mind after they no longer "need" to log solo time.

As for other comments:

I got several hours of B-737/200 sim time (and my pressurization endorsement) at ATOP at the UAL training center. I got about six hours of dual in various DC-3 aircraft in South America and the USA, and may get a type rating in it - I just like the airplane. I'm not planning on doing any 121 flying until I have enough FU money in the bank (and since my FU pile lost 30+% in 2008....).

I keep track of the other times like G1000 because insurance companies and rental folks want to know how much time I have operating the G1000 system before they'll cover me or let me rent. Having 400 hours in C182 won't get you coverage to ferry a new one off the line if you don't have time with the new avionics.
 
Tim has a considerable amount of knowledge and experience that is certainly beyond my level, that involves operating in many different types of aircraft, and never having to subject himself to the airline lifestyle.

:Blush: Thanks! I have a lot less experience in far fewer types than many folks who spend their time teaching (like Ron, for example), and may have more time in more GA types than some airline pilots. I may have spent more time sweating out the go/no-go decisions about flying a 182 in the winter, for instance.

But when talking here (and especially about regs, I think), the experience and background of the poster is less important than whether the information is accurate and insightful. I've certainlylearned things from graybeards and from newbies.
 
I think its clear that one of the unregistered pilots in this thread is not a pilot, but rather a sim pilot of some sort. The way they're using the word "135" they're not really a pilot.

So I'm thinking this thread is useless with the unregistereds, because we can't call them out for not really being pilots.
 
I think its clear that one of the unregistered pilots in this thread is not a pilot, but rather a sim pilot of some sort. The way they're using the word "135" they're not really a pilot.

So I'm thinking this thread is useless with the unregistereds, because we can't call them out for not really being pilots.

Well I'm the OP unregistered, and I am really a pilot.

While the diversion into talking about solo time is interesting, it isn't really going to the initial post. I went back and looked at the logbook again, and there's no way it isn't clear I had a "passenger", because I had some time under the hood with a safety pilot. So now we get into whether the safety pilot was night current. If so, then he was acting PIC for the entire flight and we were legal. If not, then he may have potential problems too.

But as Ron Levy said, I'll just treat this as a learning experience and go forth and sin no more.
 
You are beating a dead horse . If a pilot has a single pilot type he/she can log 91 or 135 or even 121 time as PIC (Even when a SIC is required. Go back and read GBs post .
Agreed -- but s/he can't log it as solo time, which is what I thought the poster had said. If that's not what the poster said, please disregard. BTW, there's nothing in 61.51 about logging "135" time in your pilot logbook, so if you create such a column, all it might do is draw FAA attention when such attention is not required. The only rule that matters about what you put in the PIC column is 61.51(e), which draws no distinctions between 91, 135, and/or 121 operations.
P.S. Has the FAA ever ask YOU to verify your time ?
Yes, when I got my ATP. I had to verify my time at the FSDO to get the permission slip to take the ATP written -- an old procedure no longer required. They went through my logs and asked questions about this and that. No big deal, as my logs were kosher.
 
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Well I'm the OP unregistered, and I am really a pilot.

No no no, not you. Using the anonymous feature to ask questions like you did is awesome, because people can give you real advice without passing judgment! Responding to an anonymous post anonymously, using words like "I log my 135 time as...." and "Well, my 121 time is logged as...." doesn't sound legit to me.

So I'm curious...which virtual airline does the other anonymous poster fly for?
 
Agreed -- but s/he can't log it as solo time, which is what I thought the poster had said. If that's not what the poster said, please disregard. BTW, there's nothing in 61.51 about logging "135" time in your pilot logbook, so if you create such a column, all it might do is draw FAA attention when such attention is not required. The only rule that matters about what you put in the PIC column is 61.51(e), which draws no distinctions between 91, 135, and/or 121 operations.
Yes, when I got my ATP. I had to verify my time at the FSDO to get the permission slip to take the ATP written -- an old procedure no longer required. They went through my logs and asked questions about this and that. No big deal, as my logs were kosher.

I had to do the same. Now granted that was 13 years ago. I am not sure what the procedure would be in 2009. Back then it was about a 30 second flip through the 3 logbooks that I had at that time. That breaks down to 10 seconds per book. They really were not looking for anything at all. More like just going through the paces and check off boxes. The slip took all of another 30 seconds to fill out. The fed took the most time to ask me what kind of flying that I have been doing and what kind of aircraft. The whole process took about all of 5 minutes.
 
I had to do the same. Now granted that was 13 years ago. I am not sure what the procedure would be in 2009. Back then it was about a 30 second flip through the 3 logbooks that I had at that time. That breaks down to 10 seconds per book. They really were not looking for anything at all. More like just going through the paces and check off boxes. The slip took all of another 30 seconds to fill out. The fed took the most time to ask me what kind of flying that I have been doing and what kind of aircraft. The whole process took about all of 5 minutes.
I got my ATP in 1999 and did not need to show my logbooks to the FAA. In fact, the only time I can remember showing my logbooks was once, at an interview. The chief pilot riffled through the pages seemingly without stopping long enough to really check anything. As far as my other encounters with the FAA go, I have made a few oopses over the years and they have been entirely reasonble to deal with. No need for lawyers and all the other paranoia people seem to write about. Of course if they decide to go on a witch hunt because they have some other agenda, that is another matter.
 
I got my ATP in 1999 and did not need to show my logbooks to the FAA. In fact, the only time I can remember showing my logbooks was once, at an interview. The chief pilot riffled through the pages seemingly without stopping long enough to really check anything. As far as my other encounters with the FAA go, I have made a few oopses over the years and they have been entirely reasonble to deal with. No need for lawyers and all the other paranoia people seem to write about. Of course if they decide to go on a witch hunt because they have some other agenda, that is another matter.
If the FAA (or just about anybody with enforcement power really) wants to get you, they'll find a way, because nobody can be perfect all the time. For the most part, they're not going to be out to get you, though. To the OP, just chill. There's nothing you can do at this point. If they start looking hard enough that they're finding this sort of thing, you're already well in their sights. I don't think they're going to delve that closely into the logbook, even during a checkride. They'll ask to see the minimums for that checkride, and that's about it.
 
Now I am curious. What did the OP really do that was breaking the regulations? Because it can't really be about night currency. Come on thats a tough one to not to disprove. A lot of people fly when the aren't truely night current.
 
Well I'm the OP unregistered, and I am really a pilot.

While the diversion into talking about solo time is interesting, it isn't really going to the initial post. I went back and looked at the logbook again, and there's no way it isn't clear I had a "passenger", because I had some time under the hood with a safety pilot. So now we get into whether the safety pilot was night current. If so, then he was acting PIC for the entire flight and we were legal. If not, then he may have potential problems too.

But as Ron Levy said, I'll just treat this as a learning experience and go forth and sin no more.

That certainly seems reasonable to me. It would be hard for the FAA to prove you violated the reg based on your log entries alone.

I feel like apologizing for the solo/pic diversion here - I was just trying to point out that someone like me would have a logbook that would clearly indicate when I did and did not have other people in the airplane.
 
Now I am curious. What did the OP really do that was breaking the regulations? Because it can't really be about night currency. Come on thats a tough one to not to disprove. A lot of people fly when the aren't truely night current.
So since a lot of people do it it's not breaking the regulations? That's analogous to saying that since a lot of people speed it's not breaking the law. I challenge you to try that argument with the cop! (Heck, it didn't work even with my mother! "But mooooommmmmm, everybody was fighting!")

I agree that the original poster probably has little to worry about, even if the FAA did find out about it (as long as s/he doesn't do that falsification stuff we discussed at the beginning), but it doesn't make it right.
 
As for other comments:

I got several hours of B-737/200 sim time (and my pressurization endorsement) at ATOP at the UAL training center. I got about six hours of dual in various DC-3 aircraft in South America and the USA, and may get a type rating in it - I just like the airplane. I'm not planning on doing any 121 flying until I have enough FU money in the bank (and since my FU pile lost 30+% in 2008....).

Now I am confused again . What does sim time have to do with this ? Do you log sim time as "Solo" time also ? What is a pressurization endorsement ? Did you ferry any of the old DAL ships ?
[/QUOTE]
I keep track of the other times like G1000 because insurance companies and rental folks want to know how much time I have operating the G1000 system before they'll cover me or let me rent. Having 400 hours in C182 won't get you coverage to ferry a new one off the line if you don't have time with the new avionics.[/QUOTE]
You own a 182 ? who is your insurance carrier ? I own one also (1/2 share in a round dial 1998 ) . I have flown several of the new ones and given a few check outs an nobody has ever ask for my experience (Probably a good thing because I sorta checked myself out on the G1000 , not recommended unless you have some glass panel or MFD experience ) .
Kirk
 
I had to do the same. Now granted that was 13 years ago. I am not sure what the procedure would be in 2009.
No longer required for the ATP written -- you can just walk in and take it.
Back then it was about a 30 second flip through the 3 logbooks that I had at that time. That breaks down to 10 seconds per book. They really were not looking for anything at all. More like just going through the paces and check off boxes. The slip took all of another 30 seconds to fill out. The fed took the most time to ask me what kind of flying that I have been doing and what kind of aircraft. The whole process took about all of 5 minutes.
About five minutes for me, too, including three civilian logbooks, a Navy logbook, and USAF Form 5's. However, given all the practice I've had doing it, I know that in 5 minutes, I can look through a set of pilot or aircraft logs, and spot any suspicious entries; I'll bet FAA Inspectors are as good or better.
 
That certainly seems reasonable to me. It would be hard for the FAA to prove you violated the reg based on your log entries alone.
Don't bet your ticket on that. Log entries alone have hung more than one pilot. I know of a situation in progress involving someone who was discovered to have no complex endorsement (and doesn't meet the grandfather clause). The FAA needs only the logbook to hang that person -- it is documentary evidence of the violation, signed and sworn to by the violator. The case I mentioned above involving the violation 10 years past was also based entirely on a logbook entry of a flight with a passenger without enough logged landings in the preceding 90 days to meet 61.57(a).
 
I had to do the same. Now granted that was 13 years ago. I am not sure what the procedure would be in 2009. Back then it was about a 30 second flip through the 3 logbooks that I had at that time. That breaks down to 10 seconds per book. They really were not looking for anything at all. More like just going through the paces and check off boxes. The slip took all of another 30 seconds to fill out. The fed took the most time to ask me what kind of flying that I have been doing and what kind of aircraft. The whole process took about all of 5 minutes.

This is well put . I got the ATP in 87 and 6 type ratings (2 with an actual FAA examiner ) and a check airman letter and no one ever looked at my books . In 2002 I took the CFIG with a Fed and by this time I had quit logging time and he just said " Know which time you have to log as a CFIG " and that was it .
As this pertains to the OP , I dont think he/she has anything to worry about .
Kirk
 
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