Impact Of Gear Up On Value

FlyingTiger

FlyingTiger

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
424
Location
Northeast PA
Display Name
Display name:
FlyingTiger
I have found a Mooney I really like. Low engine/prop time, good airframe, GPS, autopilot, Speed Mods, good paint, all logs. Listed very reasonably. Only negative, gear up landing 25 years ago. How much should that affect the value percentage wise?
 
FlyingTiger said:
I have found a Mooney I really like. Low engine/prop time, good airframe, GPS, autopilot, Speed Mods, good paint, all logs. Listed very reasonably. Only negative, gear up landing 25 years ago. How much should that event affect the value percentage wise?
Click to expand...

Depends. What was the damage? Was it repaired correctly?
 
Well according the listing the repairs were done right, lol. I will definitely be getting a pre-buy so lets just say for discussion purposes things check out ok structure wise.
 
Last edited:
If repaired properly, and 25 years ago, I don't think it's worthy of much consideration. After all, It's been flying all those years.
 
Yeah, unless the plane has been sitting for the last 25 years I wouldn't care one way or the other about that gear up. It's a potential bargaining point, but chances are unless it's the same owner that had the gear up, they didn't care either.
 
Isn't there a resident expert on such matters around here? :D:D:D
 
There's a Mooney around that was geared up some time ago. The retractable step is probably still sitting off the side of the runway where it was gear upped. The door is a ***** to close and doesn't sit flush. The cowlings don't have that Mooney slick finish and fit. The lower right engine mount shows dent marks into the firewall shelf. My thought is that it probably tweaked the airframe just enough to do all of those things.

I'd be much less concerned about a Cessna gear up or a Piper gear up than I would a Mooney, but obviously it's all situational. YMMV.
 
I flew a Mooney that had a gear up every time I took off. Fortunately it also had an equivalent number of gear downs.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Depends. What was the damage? Was it repaired correctly?
Click to expand...

That

Just a area for your prebuy to focus harder on.

If it was fixed good as new, was 25 years ago, who cares.
 
The question was specific to value, and yes, significant damage history will impact the price even if properly repaired. Does it make sense? No, but if you like the plane and the repairs satisfy you then enjoy the fact that it costs less than a NDH comparable. How much less is unpredictable. The differential was higher when the airplanes were younger.
 
Last edited:
Plenty of them have been on their belly that are flying around now without a bit of paperwork. Plenty.

I don't know what the value reduction will be, but I'd guess $3k-5k.
 
docmirror said:
Plenty of them have been on their belly that are flying around now without a bit of paperwork. Plenty.



I don't know what the value reduction will be, but I'd guess $3k-5k.
Click to expand...


After 25 years, only because the prebuy will need to be more detailed.
I would ask for electronic copies of the logs
Is this the same engine, after 25 years it may not be?
Was the prop replaced, or simply repaired?
Check fit of doors, all doors, have prebuy swing the gear.
Corrosion is the priority item to look for IMHO
 
teejayevans said:
After 25 years, only because the prebuy will need to be more detailed.
I would ask for electronic copies of the logs
Is this the same engine, after 25 years it may not be?
Was the prop replaced, or simply repaired?
Check fit of doors, all doors, have prebuy swing the gear.
Corrosion is the priority item to look for IMHO
Click to expand...

I'm not the OP.

I'm not buying the plane.

The OP asked a valuation question, not a how-to. But, thanks for quoting me, I guess.
 
docmirror said:
I'm not the OP.



I'm not buying the plane.



The OP asked a valuation question, not a how-to. But, thanks for quoting me, I guess.
Click to expand...


The first sentence was the response to your post, I added on some extra verbiage at no additional cost.
 
I wouldn't worry about it,if the repairs have been done correctly,a good pre buy should tell that. If your looking to de value the selling price,doubt you'll have much luck.
 
teejayevans said:
The first sentence was the response to your post, I added on some extra verbiage at no additional cost.
Click to expand...

Um - if you say so. Still don't see any valuation work-up.
 
It could work in your favor. Many of the gear up mooneys were repaired with one piece belly panel. Doesn't do anything for speed, but makes annuals much easier since you're not replacing several smaller panels.

Get a good prebuy, maybe at a mooney service center and have them pay particular attention to the repair. Honestly, if you exclude gear up mooneys, you'd probably eliminate half the fleet.

If you have a listing, put it on mooneyspace and let them have a look. you will probably get some good feedback.
 
docmirror said:
Um - if you say so. Still don't see any valuation work-up.
Click to expand...


"because the prebuy will need to be more detailed."

It helps when talking to the seller:

I'm going to deduct x amount because the prebuy will need to be more detailed

Plays better than

A guy on the Internet says....
 
FlyingTiger said:
I have found a Mooney I really like. Low engine/prop time, good airframe, GPS, autopilot, Speed Mods, good paint, all logs. Listed very reasonably. Only negative, gear up landing 25 years ago. How much should that affect the value percentage wise?
Click to expand...

teejayevans said:
"because the prebuy will need to be more detailed."

It helps when talking to the seller:

I'm going to deduct x amount because the prebuy will need to be more detailed

Plays better than

A guy on the Internet says....
Click to expand...

There's one and only one question from the OP.

He's a guy on the internet... I'm a guy on the internet... Now, for the trifecta, complete the last part of this theme. :wink2:
 
Arbiter419 said:
There's a Mooney around that was geared up some time ago. The retractable step is probably still sitting off the side of the runway where it was gear upped. The door is a ***** to close and doesn't sit flush. The cowlings don't have that Mooney slick finish and fit. The lower right engine mount shows dent marks into the firewall shelf. My thought is that it probably tweaked the airframe just enough to do all of those things.

I'd be much less concerned about a Cessna gear up or a Piper gear up than I would a Mooney, but obviously it's all situational. YMMV.
Click to expand...

If the damage wasn't repaired properly it's pretty obvious the value of the aircraft will suffer. I wouldn't think twice about buying an otherwise nice airplane if it has been flying for 25 years with no indications in the logs of any residual issues.

Get it inspected, fly it, and make the decision.
 
Minimal impact, if been flying for 25 years.
 
FlyingTiger said:
I have found a Mooney I really like. Low engine/prop time, good airframe, GPS, autopilot, Speed Mods, good paint, all logs. Listed very reasonably. Only negative, gear up landing 25 years ago. How much should that affect the value percentage wise?
Click to expand...

Hard to put a percentage on it, around 10% of what it would bring without that history is a figure that is typically bandied about and is reasonably accurate. Where people seem to make a mistake with this though is thinking they can automatically append this to the asking price. If it is declared in the ad, then you have to figure that the owner already calculated that factor into the price. You have to do comps to figure what you want to do for your offer.
 
Roughly what would it cost to do a proper repair today for such a thing? (Not necessarily too relevant to the original thread, but I'm curious :) )
 
deyoung said:
Roughly what would it cost to do a proper repair today for such a thing? (Not necessarily too relevant to the original thread, but I'm curious :) )
Click to expand...

Depends how lightly it gets put on. The airframe damage on my 310 was pretty minor. Flaps and the two jacking points took most of it and it scraped up 2 belly skins. The airframe repairs would have likely been <$15k. It was 2 props and 2 tear down inspections combined with $30k worth of panel salvage that totalled it. Had it been a single insured at $70k it would have been repaired for around $40-$45k.
 
rbridges said:
It could work in your favor. Many of the gear up mooneys were repaired with one piece belly panel. Doesn't do anything for speed, but makes annuals much easier since you're not replacing several smaller panels.

Get a good prebuy, maybe at a mooney service center and have them pay particular attention to the repair. Honestly, if you exclude gear up mooneys, you'd probably eliminate half the fleet.

If you have a listing, put it on mooneyspace and let them have a look. you will probably get some good feedback.
Click to expand...

Half the fleet, wow. That's hard to believe. I'm saying it happens but half the fleet. What lots of money, big ego and no flying abilities.
 
My 182P had two instances of damage history; first in 1979 in a nose over, then 13 years ago in a prop strike. Work was done properly each time and thorough pre-buy confirmed it. Broker discounted asking price to about 90% of VREF to account for damage history. I was able to negotiate a couple thousand more. I'd buy it again in a flash.
 
Henning said:
Hard to put a percentage on it, around 10% of what it would bring without that history is a figure that is typically bandied about and is reasonably accurate. Where people seem to make a mistake with this though is thinking they can automatically append this to the asking price. If it is declared in the ad, then you have to figure that the owner already calculated that factor into the price. You have to do comps to figure what you want to do for your offer.
Click to expand...

I'm not looking to make it a bargaining point. The list price is very reasonable and I anticipate getting the number rounded down a few thousand through the normal give-and-take process, so that part of the equation is probably not going to be an issue.

I talked to the broker yesterday and he stated that the damage was on the minor side for this type of incident. Logs are being e-mailed.
 
AKBill said:
Half the fleet, wow. That's hard to believe. I'm saying it happens but half the fleet. What lots of money, big ego and no flying abilities.
Click to expand...

I pulled that out of the air but I'm sure it's quite a few. The majority of mooneys were sold earlier so lots of time for things to happen. My mooney had a gear up in '66.
 
This is where a prebuy from someone who knows the type is very handy. I don't know what to look for on a Mooney that's been geared up, but I sure do for a Navion.
 
As someone that has only flown fixed gear I'm curious....what is the leading cause of all these belly landings? Gear malfunction? Pilots forgetting to lower the gear?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
3393RP said:
If the damage wasn't repaired properly it's pretty obvious the value of the aircraft will suffer. I wouldn't think twice about buying an otherwise nice airplane if it has been flying for 25 years with no indications in the logs of any residual issues.

Get it inspected, fly it, and make the decision.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more! I've seen repairs that far surpass the quality and finish of the factory. The reason these guys ended up with these problems is because they bought the airplane with a "fresh annual." Twenty minutes into a pre-buy inspection by any A&P in the country would have shown the impact marks in the firewall.

I cannot stress the importance of a prebuy inspection enough!
 
FlyingTiger said:
I'm not looking to make it a bargaining point. The list price is very reasonable and I anticipate getting the number rounded down a few thousand through the normal give-and-take process, so that part of the equation is probably not going to be an issue.

I talked to the broker yesterday and he stated that the damage was on the minor side for this type of incident. Logs are being e-mailed.
Click to expand...

Sounds like he's already priced it correctly then. As long as it passes a good inspection it should be of no real concern.
 
A good repair will in effect make the plane better than before. Think about it, the engine gets opened up and inspected where corrosion can be found (dreaded cam and lifter failure).

Gets new prop, mags, overhaul prop governor.

If done by good mx the plane will be better not worse and you might be able to get better buy too.

My next plane will Likely be w gear up, good deal, great planes to buy. But make darn sure a hack shop didn't fix it.
 
Maybe someone on this thread Beat u to it?
 
FlyingTiger said:
Looks like someone beat me to it. Already in Pre-buy with another. WTF! Guess I was right, it was a good deal :rolleyes2:

Here is the listing: http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20F/1969-MOONEY-M20F/1354211.htm
Click to expand...

That's why I suggested an inspection, flying it, and deciding. IMO the market has decided that a properly repaired gear up incident with decades of subsequent trouble free operation is just not an issue. There may or may not be a value reduction, depending on the engine hours, avionics, and overall condition.

When you are evaluating a 45 year old aircraft, properly repaired gear up landing damage should not be considered a disqualifying issue.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top