IMC the whole fight?

Clip4 said:
Sounds super boring looking at nothing.
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The long solid IFR segments are far from boring, especially when the possibility of convective or icing activity exists near your flight, and the added drama of turbulence. The constant instrument scan surveillance, checking for changing destination weather, hypothesizing fuel reserve options, keeping up your calorie and fluid intake, changes in routing and making sure you don’t miss radio calls all make for feeling fatigued when safely on the ground.

A recent flight of mine required straddling an east/west stationary front and gave me solid IFR from Chicago to intermediate stop 2.5 hours later at FKL. Then next leg eastward to a missed at intended destination DXR that was below minimums required an 25 minute detour to a alternate with with break out ILS inside the marker. As you can imagine, that last 3.5 hours was very fatiguing, but NEVER boring. The wife was not too happy with that one though (her first missed at minimums).
 
That’s ok, I rather be plugging along at 2500 AGL taking in the sites. The inside of the milk bottle is boring. The wild buffalo are really nic to see from a plane
 
midlifeflyer said:
Good recovery!

This wasn't clear from your description but I hope you realize - if not then, now - you could have asked ATC for that help without reaching VMC - when you arguably needed it even more. Way too many pilots don't, whether out of fear of (mostly nonexistent) repercussions or bravado.
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Not asking for help sooner was probably my biggest mistake.
 
My first flight in IFR conditions after I got my IR was forecast to be 800-1200 overcast, with layers of clouds. Atlanta to Pinehurst NC, went IMC at about 1000 feet and saw the ground about 600 AGL on landing! About 2hours in our 182 with a single axis autopilot that was sketchy to say the least. I was mentally and physically exhausted when we landed! This was about 1987, so no magenta line, just VOR’s. :D
 
You can log IMC without a cloud in the sky if you fly on a dark enough night. That is one way the whole flight might have to be made by reference to instruments and something to consider when you think about whether you only need to climb or descent through a marine layer with your instrument skills.
 
iamtheari said:
You can log IMC without a cloud in the sky if you fly on a dark enough night. That is one way the whole flight might have to be made by reference to instruments and something to consider when you think about whether you only need to climb or descent through a marine layer with your instrument skills.
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I did not know that. There is no question that the skills required to fly at night without any visual references are like those in IFR ( see JFK jr’s fatal flight), but being able to log it in truly VFR conditions seem to be a very grey area to me that I would like references for. Can approaches be logged in VFR conditions with the runway lights out and no rotating beacon without a safety pilot on a dark night?
 
MajorTurbulence said:
I did not know that. There is no question that the skills required to fly at night without any visual references are like those in IFR ( see JFK jr’s fatal flight), but being able to log it in truly VFR conditions seem to be a very grey area to me that I would like references for. Can approaches be logged in VFR conditions with the runway lights out and no rotating beacon without a safety pilot on a dark night?
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Logging actual instrument time and logging an instrument approach have different requirements, and there’s an argument to be made that choosing not to turn on the runway lights until past the FAF poses an unnecessary risk, one that could cross into recklessness if the wrong air cop catches you. But the main point here is that, if you need the instruments to maintain control of the airplane, you can log instrument time. And, even if you couldn’t log the time, my personal minimums are that I won’t fly at night without at least one gyro instrument.

For references on the logging question, here’s an article (evidently and, if so, unsurprisingly written by @midlifeflyer) that talks about it a bit: https://www.ifr-magazine.com/technique/actual-conditions/
 
iamtheari said:
Logging actual instrument time and logging an instrument approach have different requirements, and there’s an argument to be made that choosing not to turn on the runway lights until past the FAF poses an unnecessary risk, one that could cross into recklessness if the wrong air cop catches you. But the main point here is that, if you need the instruments to maintain control of the airplane, you can log instrument time. And, even if you couldn’t log the time, my personal minimums are that I won’t fly at night without at least one gyro instrument.

For references on the logging question, here’s an article (evidently and, if so, unsurprisingly written by @midlifeflyer) that talks about it a bit: https://www.ifr-magazine.com/technique/actual-conditions/
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Thanks for that link. I wasn’t trying to imply an approach made whereby all visual clues were purposefully eliminated to the airport until turning on the lights when past the FAF, although that certainly is an interesting idea even if problematic. I was more referring to the black hole approach that is referenced in the article. That situation did present itself to me when there was an area power outage at my home destination, but I elected the security of a nearby full service alternate for an approach. However, it seems that academic arguments are still prevalent, except for the overwater sojourn, about logging the en-route portions. But, the bottom line is neatly summarized in the final paragraph of that referenced article in that, ‘if you think you are entitled to logging it, be prepared to justify it if questions are asked.’
 
Shoot, I did 2.0 in a Redbird sim without using the AP and I was TIRED by the end. Single pilot IFR without an AP or a wing leveler is tiring for me - maybe not such a big lift for professional pilots? Call me wimpy, but while I wouldn't abort enroute (probably) if the AP failed, I probably wouldn't launch XC in hard IMC if the AP was out of service.
 
Depends on the aircraft and how well it trims along with how smooth the air is. Some planes in in decently smooth air are a joy to fly IMC by hand.
 
Just because we can doesn't mean we should. I think many or likely most of us got into flying because it appeared exciting and fun. some may find IMC fun but I find it to be work more often than not.
 
Here in Southern California, IMC for the whole flight means it is probably raining. That may or may not involve bumps or drafts, but it is certainly a workout to hand fly without some kind of automation to back you up. I did it several times back when I was getting my instrument rating, though the airplanes I was flying had some sort of AP if I really needed it (a lot of my instrument was done in Arrows that had the old Piper Autocontrol II/Century IIb - followed the heading bug anyway). Usually, if you're going to be in IMC that long, you have made the turn toward your flight planned route before going in - if it is super low, you almost certainly are going into a smooth layer and popping out relatively quickly.
 
In Florida, IMC without onboard radar is playing Russian Roulette as a thunderstorm can popup within 10 minutes where there was none.
 
WDD said:
Fantastic! Spend some time getting familiar with the navigator in your plane. Garmin has simulators you can download if it’s a GTN.
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They have GNS simulators also. Not as nice at the GTN ones, but usable to get used to the buttons and knobs and how to do things.
 
Flew 2 hours in IMC one time. First half was night. Wasn’t so bad as I had another senior pilot with me and was actually a smooth ride. Then one time just trying to climb out of IMC hit some patches and bumps that had me disoriented for a bit. Scared the hell out of me. Bottom line - every time you fly IMC your risk goes through the roof. In a small plane a single moment can easily land you in trouble. If I know there is IMC I will avoid it unless I have to go through it. And usually those times are because of daily fog which is in general in only a few hundred feet thick.
 
jesse said:
Doing IPCs, I see by far more pilots that are dangerously dependent on their autopilot versus ones that actually get a safety increase.
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A good motivation to practice and conduct one's IPC sans autopilot, assuming you know how to use the AP properly with your avionics system. I use my AP primarily for enroute relief, but prefer to fly approaches by had from the FAF. The AP is OK flying approaches (LPV, LNAV, LOC), but I can't stand the wandering of the rate-based AP. Flying IFR with a GPSS-enabled WAAS GPS is almost like cheating...but I wouldn't trade it for the days of scalloping VOR or ADF approaches.
 
Johnny Costello said:
Flew 2 hours in IMC one time. First half was night. Wasn’t so bad as I had another senior pilot with me and was actually a smooth ride. Then one time just trying to climb out of IMC hit some patches and bumps that had me disoriented for a bit. Scared the hell out of me. Bottom line - every time you fly IMC your risk goes through the roof. In a small plane a single moment can easily land you in trouble. If I know there is IMC I will avoid it unless I have to go through it. And usually those times are because of daily fog which is in general in only a few hundred feet thick.
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With practice and experience, the risk of disorientation in IMC decreases dramatically. However, it takes much more than 2 hours, and probably closer to 40 hours IMC to become completely comfortable. Of course, it's also the most perishable of flying skills, so after a not-so-long interval, one's skills regress a fair amount.

As far as AP and IMC, let George fly an hour, then you fly an hour. George does one approach, you do the next, etc.
 
I try to get up once a month and knock out an approach to two with a safety pilot. When I do get up in actual, it’s still a whole different experience than foggles.
 
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