I'll call your base

All of the above, especially the "I'm outta here ones." I'm going around and I'll depart the pattern and re-enter are both things I've done more than once when they get busier than a three legged cat covering up sheet. I gotta agree that any CFI who hasn't taught a student the concept of holding pattern altitude and not leaving it until on base or even final if they've been extended pretty far out needs to have his thinking realigned. Sometimes they extend arrivals just to make some holes for departures. "Leave me room for one/two departures seems to be a lost art." I've only heard it once since I started flying again about five years ago. Has anyone got that one?
 
Oh yeah. Don't forget, if you're having trouble finding the traffic you're supposed to be following you can ask/tell them to call your base.
 
I have received this from the tower, along with S turns, 360s, and cleared to land;best speed direct to runway. If I am on an extended downwind, usually the reason is one A/C on final and I get turned right after he passes.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
On one of my first flights alone after my checkride, I was asked to do that. I started to do it, but then wasn't quite sure if I was doing it correctly and started to get stressed. Being low and slow, and being PIC, I made the decision to go around. Told the tower what I was going to do and they simply just advised me to do the go around north of the runway paralleling the landing Cessna. NBD. We're PIC... we are in charge of our own safety. Apparently, there was a student pilot behind me and when I was tying down my plane, he came zipping up to me completely beside himself that I told tower I wanted to go around instead of doing S-Turns. Had no idea we could take charge of a situation like that. :confused: I'd argue that HE was the one with a bad CFI. While my CFI may not have taught me how to do the best s-turns on final in the world, he certainly taught me how to be safe in the pattern. We can't expect our instructors to teach us to master everything. So, I disagree with the NTSB on that one.
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I was doing a 172 checkout for a retired 20 gazillion hour airline pilot at an airport with two parallel runways and a crosswind runway. We were cleared to land on runway 35 with a very strong crosswind.the pilot turned to me and said, "it's been a long time since I landed a 172 in a crosswind. You might have to help." I replied, "or you can just ask for the other runway." He looked at me a bit shocked. After decades of following ATC instructions, it simply did not dawn on him to do that.
 
PaulS said:
If you are unsure, ask.
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Exactly.

If I was told my base would be called, and then cleared to land, pretty sure I would verify I was cleared to turn base. Something like, "467SA cleared to land...just confirm I can turn base at my discretion?"

Sure, it might be implied, and most times unnecessary, but I'd want to be 100% sure there wasn't any confusion.
 
denverpilot said:
If you're letting down from TPA anywhere you can't glide to the runway, you're setting yourself up for an off-field landing. Or worse.

Stay at TPA until the runway is assured. If nothing else to give yourself a whopping fifteen seconds to troubleshoot and decide where to go if the powerplant decides it's taking a vacation today.

Many "airliner sized traffic patterns" are already setting you up for this at some airports. Why add to the insanity?

I've been turned base by a controller so far out, I might as well have flown the full ILS procedure from the outer marker. No reason to let down at all VMC. Fly back closer to the airport and then start a descent.

The turn is never the trigger for the descent. The distance from the runway is.
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This. Getting the "I'll call your base" at SNA is very common due to the bigger guys on the parallel, or other common sequencing asks. The TPA at SNA for us little guys is only 800' AGL...above fairly dense cityscape. If I get outside of gliding distance on an extended downwind at SNA, I start climbing (almost everyone does; the flight schools here train their students this way as well). When I choose to descend is dictated by my distance from the runway.

I don't want to be this guy that landed short of SNA but cheated further injury through a mix of good execution and luck.

 
I worked at a towered class delta for almost thirty years and listening on frequency heard pilots do and say some dumb things. Most of them seemed to have done most of their training at uncontrolled fields and were not used to talking with a controller. I frequently thought they sounded intimated by a controller giving them instructions. Others whose instructors made them practice at deltas sounded much better on the radio. The latter weren't afraid of pattern work at a towered field.
 
3 in the green said:
This. Getting the "I'll call your base" at SNA is very common due to the bigger guys on the parallel, or other common sequencing asks. The TPA at SNA for us little guys is only 800' AGL...above fairly dense cityscape. If I get outside of gliding distance on an extended downwind at SNA, I start climbing (almost everyone does; the flight schools here train their students this way as well). When I choose to descend is dictated by my distance from the runway.

I don't want to be this guy that landed short of SNA but cheated further injury through a mix of good execution and luck.

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I always loved that he caught the green light in that video. LOL.

We have to be careful about climbing much when they extend us out in the ridiculous conga line started by someone who makes monster patterns, since the Bravo shelf is overhead. Pattern 6885, bravo 8000 and above.

You just kinda start looking for open fields. There used to be a lot more of them.

The usual place people survive south of the airport is the strip of land around the toll road or the golf course.

North of the airport it's the other golf course kinda. It's small. You're gonna get hurt but you'll probably survive it. Or the reservoir is another northerly sucky option.

East it used to be the open undeveloped land but they're filling all of that in.

West, there isn't **** to land on other than the roof of the IKEA. LOL. Probably not recommended.

We're being surrounded by "civilization" which will kill some pilots eventually. The last fatal was in someone's front yard northwest of the field.

We've had a couple make the impossible turn but not come all the way around back to the runway, but just enough to get back into the airport fence and grass.

I'm pretty happy I have the STOL kit on the 182. If I land it at 35-40 and have a couple hundred feet to slow up from that, maybe it won't hurt as much.
 
If I receive a landing clearance on downwind, I understand that he expects me to fly a regular pattern, not a tight slipping spiral directly to the numbers.
 
When I hear "I'll call your base" I immediately slow to my slowest approach speed to minimize how far away I get before they call it. Since they're buying time for some other operation, I figure I might as well minimize my inbound time.
 
Works sometimes until the plane following you doesn't slow. If a busy pattern a request to slow as you stated might be wise. Of course the plane following should adjust their speed to yours, accordion effect.
 
mscard88 said:
Works sometimes until the plane following you doesn't slow.
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Yeah, I wouldn't slow because of that reason. Just stick to your normal pattern and normal pattern speed/alt. That's what ATC is basing their calls on.
 
At PAO, where I learned, getting your base called was pretty typical. The NUQ Delta is siamesed with PAO's and you're usually in it when you're on an extended downwind, so you're trusting that the two controllers have worked it out. I start getting nervous at Shoreline Amphitheater, as I know that's where the limit of the LOA is between the towers. Before I get there I'll almost always get a "Base turn approved" (note: you're PIC and the instruction is NOT "turn base now") but sometimes it's "Extensions into Moffett approved" or "Extensions to Hangar One approved".

However, I've never gotten a reverse 270 to base. Can that be done safely? It has you crossing the downwind leg while on base behind where the turn was started. I guess it's not done if there's any aircraft in the pattern behind you?

EDIT: fixed a run on sentence.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Yeah, I wouldn't slow because of that reason. Just stick to your normal pattern and normal pattern speed/alt. That's what ATC is basing their calls on.
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It helps to have some SA on who else may be in the pattern and the reason for needing to extend your downwind. If it is because there are a lot of planes doing closed traffic, then yes, slowing down can complicate things. But if the reason they are extending you is to let a jet in on the instrument approach, it makes sense to slow down so that you don't get too far out.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Yeah, I wouldn't slow because of that reason. Just stick to your normal pattern and normal pattern speed/alt. That's what ATC is basing their calls on.
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But they're also basing their calls on you maintaining that speed on final...I've seen several times where the reason for continued "I'll call your base" calls was because somebody flew downwind at 100 knots and slowed to their normal 60-70 when they turned the 5-mile final.
 
For those who agree with Tom about making a short approach after being cleared to land..

Controllers don't expect a short approach when they clear someone to land. They expect a normal pattern. For a short approach, controllers expect pilots to ask for it, declare an emergency with an engine out situation or they tell pilots to make one if able to turn inside traffic on final.

I would be willing to bet that if a pilot made a short approach after being cleared to land on the downwind, there would be "a number to call" when the plane is parked.
 
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One pilot's short approach is another pilot's normal pattern. If the tower has certain expectations beyond "don't cut off the guy ahead of you", that needs to be communicated.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I would be willing to bet that if a pilot made a short approach after being cleared to land on the downwind, there would be "a number to call" when the plane is parked.
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I do it pretty regularly when I'm doing pattern work in our class-D, and they have never said a word. However, I do stay aware, and would only generally do it if I was the only one in the pattern or knew it wouldn't cause a problem. They do ask for it pretty often as well, so it's good to know how to do it, and they usually thank me for the help.
 
rolivi said:
Last instruction was "Cleared to land"? Comply if safe. What's the question?.
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The question WAS, what do the tower controllers mean when they say "I'll call your base"
Do they mean you are to turn to base leg when they call "N----- cleared to land"?

That day I was directed to enter the pattern direct into the left down wind to 34 left when I was at Shilshow Marina ( that's a well known reporting point) after Seattle approach turns you over to tower. After I was abreast the tower, (that's about mid field) they say "N---- cleared to land"
Normally we light weights go to 34 Right but it was closed that day. we never get that call over the east side right pattern to 34R they will clear you to land when you are at mid field, then you do the normal landing to the little runway.

about 5 minutes after I exited the runway and cleared to east parking the AN-22? monster landed. I always assumed the tower just wanted me down and out of the way prior to the huge thing closed the airport until the air to settle down again.

But getting back, is there a clear meaning for the statement? "I'll call your base"? where would it be found?
 
Tom-D said:
The question WAS, what do the tower controllers mean when they say "I'll call your base"
Do they mean you are to turn to base leg when they call "N----- cleared to land"?
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In my relatively short experience, they usually say "Nxxxx you can start your base" and then many times also state "cleared to land" or T&G or option or whatever. I don't usually hear "cleared to land" as the next phrase after being told to extend my downwind.
 
The tower can say "I'll call your base" even if you've already been cleared to land. See AIM 4-3-21:
A clearance to land means that appropriate separation on the landing runway will be ensured. A landing clearance does not relieve the pilot from compliance with any previously issued restriction.
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"N1234, Runway 23, cleared to land, number 4. Follow Cirrus, 5 mile final. [Extend downwind.] I/tower will call your base."

The tower calling the base sounds like this:

"N1234, turn base now."
"N1234, base turn approved."
"N1234, base turn at pilot's discretion."

Let's think about this logically for a minute. If tower says "I'll call your base," does anyone really think they can turn base whenever they want? Does someone think this means the tower is going to announce to the listening audience when you turn base? What exactly would be the point of that?
 
The AIM defines a turn from base to final as one occurring no closer than 1/4 mile from the runway. Any turns closer than that are considered short approaches and must have ATC approval.

AIM 4-3-5:
There have been several incidents in the vicinity of controlled airports that were caused primarily by aircraft executing unexpected maneuvers. ATC service is based upon observed or known traffic and airport conditions. Controllers establish the sequence of arriving and departing aircraft by requiring them to adjust flight as necessary to achieve proper spacing. These adjustments can only be based on observed traffic, accurate pilot reports, and anticipated aircraft maneuvers. Pilots are expected to cooperate so as to preclude disrupting traffic flows or creating conflicting patterns.
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Short approaches conducted without ATC approval may result in an arrival and a departure being too close at low altitude, resulting in a near midair collision or worse. I've seen it before. Your best bet is to get approval for short approaches.
 
MauleSkinner said:
One pilot's short approach is another pilot's normal pattern. If the tower has certain expectations beyond "don't cut off the guy ahead of you", that needs to be communicated.
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Did the controller say something along the lines of "traffic to follow is a Cherokee on a three mile final" in other words were you sequenced to the runway?

In your quote, "One pilot's short approach is another pilot's normal pattern." May be true but unless your name is Wilber or Orville we were ALL taught the same basic way to fly a pattern at first. If your air patch and it's controllers have no problem with it then have a nut, but don't try that at Tucson International or there most certainly will be a "number to call."
 
The part where you included it in the sequence of events that didn't include "I'll call your base."
 
Tom-D said:
The question WAS, what do the tower controllers mean when they say "I'll call your base"
Do they mean you are to turn to base leg when they call "N----- cleared to land"?

That day I was directed to enter the pattern direct into the left down wind to 34 left when I was at Shilshow Marina ( that's a well known reporting point) after Seattle approach turns you over to tower. After I was abreast the tower, (that's about mid field) they say "N---- cleared to land"
Normally we light weights go to 34 Right but it was closed that day. we never get that call over the east side right pattern to 34R they will clear you to land when you are at mid field, then you do the normal landing to the little runway.

about 5 minutes after I exited the runway and cleared to east parking the AN-22? monster landed. I always assumed the tower just wanted me down and out of the way prior to the huge thing closed the airport until the air to settle down again.

But getting back, is there a clear meaning for the statement? "I'll call your base"? where would it be found?
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If they want you down and out ASAP then they'll tell you "make short approach." If they told you "I'll call your base" then they are trying to sequence you into a specific spot in the pattern.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
They are planning on forgetting you , hoping you will smack into the mountains and no longer have to deal with you. (KELP, 20 years ago, downwind rwy 8R)
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Pretty much this except in my case, they'll extend me either to the north or south shore, forget about me, then tell me to indent when I ask them when I can turn.
 
Velocity173 said:
If they want you down and out ASAP then they'll tell you "make short approach." If they told you "I'll call your base" then they are trying to sequence you into a specific spot in the pattern.
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There wasn't anyone else in the pattern.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Except the AN-224 on final. ;)
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Would it be on final 5 minutes behind my landing from the other direction? Maybe? they would have been south of SEA, I never saw it until it landed.
 
denverpilot said:
I always loved that he caught the green light in that video. LOL.

We have to be careful about climbing much when they extend us out in the ridiculous conga line started by someone who makes monster patterns, since the Bravo shelf is overhead. Pattern 6885, bravo 8000 and above.

You just kinda start looking for open fields. There used to be a lot more of them.

The usual place people survive south of the airport is the strip of land around the toll road or the golf course.

North of the airport it's the other golf course kinda. It's small. You're gonna get hurt but you'll probably survive it. Or the reservoir is another northerly sucky option.

East it used to be the open undeveloped land but they're filling all of that in.

West, there isn't **** to land on other than the roof of the IKEA. LOL. Probably not recommended.

We're being surrounded by "civilization" which will kill some pilots eventually. The last fatal was in someone's front yard northwest of the field.

We've had a couple make the impossible turn but not come all the way around back to the runway, but just enough to get back into the airport fence and grass.

I'm pretty happy I have the STOL kit on the 182. If I land it at 35-40 and have a couple hundred feet to slow up from that, maybe it won't hurt as much.
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Wow. . .you'd get away with a lot less than a couple hundred feet! Maybe 30-40 feet. . .couldn't use the airplane again, of course.
 
denverpilot said:
West, there isn't **** to land on other than the roof of the IKEA. LOL. Probably not recommended.
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If there are better options, I'd take advantage of them, but the roof of a decent-sized warehouse/big box store can work in an urban area. The guy in this crash (controlled forced landing?) is a friend of a friend, and had engine power loss on approach to Brackett Field (La Verne, CA). The roof caved in a bit, dissipating some energy. IIRC, he had broken bone or two and a couple of facial lacerations, but otherwise OK.

Just think of it as a carrier landing for GA planes. :)


126939-full.jpg
 
ATC has waited so long to call my base that I had to stop for fuel on the way back in.
 
Harold Rutila said:
The AIM defines a turn from base to final as one occurring no closer than 1/4 mile from the runway. Any turns closer than that are considered short approaches and must have ATC approval.

AIM 4-3-5:

Short approaches conducted without ATC approval may result in an arrival and a departure being too close at low altitude, resulting in a near midair collision or worse. I've seen it before. Your best bet is to get approval for short approaches.
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Can you quote to where the AIM talks about 1/4 mile, short approach,etc.?
 
Tom-D said:
Would it be on final 5 minutes behind my landing from the other direction? Maybe? they would have been south of SEA, I never saw it until it landed.
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To be fair, you called it and I quote, an "AN-22?" in your post above.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Can you quote to where the AIM talks about 1/4 mile, short approach,etc.?
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Sure, the 1/4 mile reference is in all of the diagrams of the patterns. Figures 4-3-2 and 4-3-3.

The definition of "make short approach" implies an alteration is required to the normal pattern. This is not an explicit requirement to request one, but there are strong recommendations against making unexpected maneuvers in the traffic pattern throughout the AIM.

MAKE SHORT APPROACH− Used by ATC to inform a pilot to alter his/her traffic pattern so as to make a short final approach.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
They are planning on forgetting you , hoping you will smack into the mountains and no longer have to deal with you. (KELP, 20 years ago, downwind rwy 8R)
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Ha! I've had that several occasions here (KELP). You can expect a LOT of that at night ... usually 26L and 22 are in use 90% of the time. You'll see it a lot on practice instrument approaches as well.

EDIT: Wasn't going to post this but ....

When I was a student at about the 20 hour mark back in 2006, I was doing GREAT on radios and got a good amount of practice at the Class C "big boy" airport. Was getting a lot of TNG work in on 26L and 26R when "rush hour" inbound started. Was on downwind and got the "Cessna 12345 continue downwind, I'll call your base" transmission. My instructor laughed at my response "El Paso Approach, You've got base" ... I didn't think so, but he thought it sounded like the "Got Milk" ads that were big back then.
 
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