I'll call your base

Timbeck2 said:
To be fair, you called it and I quote, an "AN-22?" in your post above.
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Simply because I learned what it was after it landed.

Boeing field's pattern is not that big. If that monster had been in the pattern I certainly would have seen him. 5 minutes in a AN224 is a long final. 5 minutes out will place him south of SeaTac and out of my sight.
but we are off topic again.
 
Harold Rutila said:
Sure, the 1/4 mile reference is in all of the diagrams of the patterns. Figures 4-3-2 and 4-3-3.

The definition of "make short approach" implies an alteration is required to the normal pattern. This is not an explicit requirement to request one, but there are strong recommendations against making unexpected maneuvers in the traffic pattern throughout the AIM.

MAKE SHORT APPROACH− Used by ATC to inform a pilot to alter his/her traffic pattern so as to make a short final approach.
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Thank you.
 
On the subject of pattern entries at towered airports...

I had a wild go-around at Centennial Airport here (KAPA) that made me truly appreciate the things that controllers have to think about that we don't ever witness.

Pull up the airport diagram, maybe. I'm with my family Over the fence landing #2 on the x wind runway 28 when the taildragger in front of me had his engine die just feet before the hold short line exiting the runway.

I hear the 'dragger and by the end of his call I'm over the numbers, slow and dirty. I know Tower is gonna call for the go so I'm powering up. They call the go, I reply. Now this where I 'hear' my instructor telling me "fly the gd plane!". So I'm watching airspeed, looking for positive rate of climb, gradually dialing out flaps, deciding NOT to bother with retracting gear, etc.

I'm Halfway down 28 on the go, almost perpendicular to two busy 17/35 runways and that's when it 'hit' me... what are the controllers going to do with me now? Quick left turn to parallel 35?, cross both at low altitude and risk a mid-air with traffic landing on the 35s?

Well they had it all covered. They knew my arrival wouldn't interfere with traffic landing on the 35's. There conveniently was no one landing or taking off at that precise moment When it mattered. I had, however, seen one taking off a moment before. But there was lots of left traffic in the pattern for 35L (the T&G runway) so they had me climb to 500 feet straight out until I crossed I25 (which is under the downwind for 35L), then they had me do a climbing right 270 to enter downwind for 35L! I had my gear down and one notch of flaps in so when I finally got in the pattern I was already configured normally.

That was the craziest pattern entry.. And it was a lot of fun getting to really fly the airplane that way, honestly. But when it was all done I was even more appreciative of the constant stream of what-ifs that controllers have to consider while we're considering our own stream of what-ifs.

I think if the tower hadn't been there I wouldn't have had the stones to cross over both those runways and probably would have done some kind of early crosswind to parallel 35R, climbed to TPA and then turned base and flown it in from there as normal.

Good times.
 
petrolero said:
On the subject of pattern entries at towered airports...

I had a wild go-around at Centennial Airport here (KAPA) that made me truly appreciate the things that controllers have to think about that we don't ever witness.

Pull up the airport diagram, maybe. I'm with my family Over the fence landing #2 on the x wind runway 28 when the taildragger in front of me had his engine die just feet before the hold short line exiting the runway.

I hear the 'dragger and by the end of his call I'm over the numbers, slow and dirty. I know Tower is gonna call for the go so I'm powering up. They call the go, I reply. Now this where I 'hear' my instructor telling me "fly the gd plane!". So I'm watching airspeed, looking for positive rate of climb, gradually dialing out flaps, deciding NOT to bother with retracting gear, etc.

I'm Halfway down 28 on the go, almost perpendicular to two busy 17/35 runways and that's when it 'hit' me... what are the controllers going to do with me now? Quick left turn to parallel 35?, cross both at low altitude and risk a mid-air with traffic landing on the 35s?

Well they had it all covered. They knew my arrival wouldn't interfere with traffic landing on the 35's. There conveniently was no one landing or taking off at that precise moment When it mattered. I had, however, seen one taking off a moment before. But there was lots of left traffic in the pattern for 35L (the T&G runway) so they had me climb to 500 feet straight out until I crossed I25 (which is under the downwind for 35L), then they had me do a climbing right 270 to enter downwind for 35L! I had my gear down and one notch of flaps in so when I finally got in the pattern I was already configured normally.

That was the craziest pattern entry.. And it was a lot of fun getting to really fly the airplane that way, honestly. But when it was all done I was even more appreciative of the constant stream of what-ifs that controllers have to consider while we're considering our own stream of what-ifs.

I think if the tower hadn't been there I wouldn't have had the stones to cross over both those runways and probably would have done some kind of early crosswind to parallel 35R, climbed to TPA and then turned base and flown it in from there as normal.

Good times.
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I had them turn me north (not south as your left turn indicated) to parallel 35R on climb out after a go around on 28. It's kinda fun, you get to buzz the tower. Ha.

"Cessna 79M go around, if able enter right traffic for runway 28, remain east of Taxiway Alpha. If unable let me know."

Whoever wasn't able to get clear of 28 (they landed fast and long and I slowed up as much as I could...) managed to do it while I was making that turn, so they issued "Cleared to land, runway 28", before I had even finished the turn.

They'll turn you whichever direction they're operating the parallels so you're not a head on collision risk.

It's going to be a zoo when they close 35R/17L for repaving here soon. I bet the pattern over at FTG gets busy while they're doing that.
 
midlifeflyer said:
My "normal" is to slow when abeam the touchdown point on downwind.
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Yes, you do that as a timing thing, but that changes when you have to extend downwind. You have to adjust the timing of your actions to meet the new pattern.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Yes, you do that as a timing thing, but that changes when you have to extend downwind. You have to adjust the timing of your actions to meet the new pattern.
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I haven't maintained my earlier airspeed. I don't descend from TPA but I do slow down to my normal pattern speed for that point in the pattern. I never had any complaints. Heck, never even been asked to keep my speed up in a normal rectangular VFR traffic pattern.
 
petrolero said:
I'm Halfway down 28 on the go, almost perpendicular to two busy 17/35 runways and that's when it 'hit' me... what are the controllers going to do with me now? Quick left turn to parallel 35?, cross both at low altitude and risk a mid-air with traffic landing on the 35s?

Well they had it all covered.
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Maybe they did and maybe they didn't.

APA is not the only airport with that runway configuration. For example, the RDU Class C is pretty much the same. And while RDU isn't nearly as busy as APA it does have airline traffic. Your experience aside, Nate's description is in my experience pretty much SOP for that runway setup and the pre-landing briefing should include expecting a go-around that avoids crossing the main runways.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I haven't maintained my earlier airspeed. I don't descend from TPA but I do slow down to my normal pattern speed for that point in the pattern. I never had any complaints. Heck, never even been asked to keep my speed up in a normal rectangular VFR traffic pattern.
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So you're saying that you wait to slow to normal pattern speed abeam the numbers... why aren't you at pattern speed when you enter the pattern? Normally, abeam the numbers is when I drop from 2300 to 1600 rpm which brings my speed down. Once my speed drops into the white arc, I throw in a notch of flaps and turn base. When I'm given an extended downwind, I delay all of that until it makes more sense. You don't?
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
So you're saying that you wait to slow to normal pattern speed abeam the numbers... why aren't you at pattern speed when you enter the pattern? Normally, abeam the numbers is when I drop from 2300 to 1600 rpm which brings my speed down. Once my speed drops into the white arc, I throw in a notch of flaps and turn base. When I'm given an extended downwind, I delay all of that until it makes more sense. You don't?
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You misunderstood the continuity of my two posts since I do the same as you. Almost.

"Normally, abeam the numbers is when I drop from 2300 to 1600 rpm which brings my speed down." The numbers might be different depending on make/model, but that is exactly what I do. Slow down from my initial pattern speed to my abeam-the-numbers speed.

What I don't do is delay that slowdown when asked to extend downwind, although I do delay adding flaps and descending.
 
My pattern is dependent on who's in front of me. If all is clear I maintain Bonanza speeds and am a tad higher. My base and final legs are short sweeping turns. If there is a Cessna out front I pour coffee and have a snack and wait with wide patterns.

I don't believe I've had anyone call my base.
 
I learned to fly at Opa Locka back in the day when it was among the busiest airports in the country. Even with Opa Locka West as a reliever, you could have LOTS of planes in the touch and go pattern at any given time.

Even when getting dragged WAY out by traffic, I would see students robotically begin descent abeam the numbers. If left to their own devices, they could end up a 400' on base 2 or 3 miles from the airport. If I pulled the power, they'd be scrambling for any miserable spot to try to land. I'd ask, "Why not just glide to the runway?" Answer: "But we're too low!". Me: "EXACTLY!"

I would tell the students that, ideally, if traffic was going miles out on downwind, wouldn't it be nice if we could just hover until traffic to follow was not a factor and then continue. Since we can't hover, the next best thing is to fly as slowly as possible. Hence, I would have my students go into slow flight while maintaining altitude, so as to at least stay as close as possible in case we had an engine problem. Never did, but a good practice nonetheless.
 
FastEddieB said:
I learned to fly at Opa Locka back in the day when it was among the busiest airports in the country. Even with Opa Locka West as a reliever, you could have LOTS of planes in the touch and go pattern at any given time.

Even when getting dragged WAY out by traffic, I would see students robotically begin descent abeam the numbers. If left to their own devices, they could end up a 400' on base 2 or 3 miles from the airport. If I pulled the power, they'd be scrambling for any miserable spot to try to land. I'd ask, "Why not just glide to the runway?" Answer: "But we're too low!". Me: "EXACTLY!"

I would tell the students that, ideally, if traffic was going miles out on downwind, wouldn't it be nice if we could just hover until traffic to follow was not a factor and then continue. Since we can't hover, the next best thing is to fly as slowly as possible. Hence, I would have my students go into slow flight while maintaining altitude, so as to at least stay as close as possible in case we had an engine problem. Never did, but a good practice nonetheless.
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Opa Locka, that's where Stevio flys out of, I love his videos.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It helps to have some SA on who else may be in the pattern and the reason for needing to extend your downwind. If it is because there are a lot of planes doing closed traffic, then yes, slowing down can complicate things. But if the reason they are extending you is to let a jet in on the instrument approach, it makes sense to slow down so that you don't get too far out.
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Which is the primary reason they have us extend at our airport.
 
If I have good SA about what tower is doing, I just affirm the "will call your base" call and do it; presumption is he has the big(ger) picture; but if it isn't clear, or might put me in a bad spot, or I think he made a mistake (or forgot) I call him. Human stuff - 95% of the time the cooperation thing works out, everyone wins. If tower gets mildly snotty, I let it pass - maybe a bad day, or a "local knowledge" thing. I got that call at MTN once, and they drove me out five or six miles, so I called - got a sh*tstorm diatribe. . .when she shut-up, I asked her if she was done? if so, how about handling me as traffic instead of as an annoyance? She didn't like, and I didn't care, but she did her job.

One thing newer guys have to be able to do - ignore the "tone", listen to the message. . .maybe you're a PITA, maybe you misunderstood, maybe you made a rookie/lack of experience call. Or the tower got tail numbers confused. Whatever. End of the conversation, be sure you and tower (or center, whoever) are on the same page. If his/her voice is dripping sarcasm or annoyance, or you're mad enough to spit, doesn't matter all that much, as long as they know what you're doing, and you know they know.
 
You have to be extra vigilant when your base is called and other traffic is told to follow you, sometimes you'll get cut off.
 
LDJones said:
Which is the primary reason they have us extend at our airport.
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It can happen on IFR vectors too. I was coming into a towered airport for a fly-in. Clouds were just low enough a whole bunch of folks were IFR. As they turned me downwind for th ILS, I was informed it would be extended due to traffic. A glance at the ADS-B readout told me what was going on so my readback included, "I can slow to 90 if it will help." "Thank you!" Was the emphatic ATC reply.
 
We have Spirit and a business jets at my airport and they get priority vs me and my 172 in the pattern. We get extended quite often. I just slow down, stay at TPA and turn when they tell me. Locally, I get this a lot:"extend downwind, number 2 following XXXXX, report traffic in site." That leaves the base turn to me, but following a Spirit A320 usually means I give myself plenty of space anyway.
 
Typically, I get an "I'll call your base" if I am unable to see the traffic I'm supposed to be following. They usually revert to "turn base at your discretion" once I see it.
 
I never look at RPM in the pattern. Ever. It's all about airspeed.

And I'll usually pull the power just after abeam the numbers. Can always add more in, and it's good practice for engine-out landings / judgement. Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude. That's it. RPM shmarpm

If I have to extend, stay at TPA with whatever airspeed you need, then manage it for a "stabilized" approach during base to final.
 
MetalCloud said:
I never look at RPM in the pattern. Ever. It's all about airspeed.
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And that works for you, good.

I don't pay so much attention to RPM anymore, but I certainly did when I was doing my initial training. Once I start gearing up to work on my instrument rating, I'll start paying attention again. I want to start getting my actions as methodical and deliberate as possible.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
And that works for you, good.

I don't pay so much attention to RPM anymore, but I certainly did when I was doing my initial training. Once I start gearing up to work on my instrument rating, I'll start paying attention again. I want to start getting my actions as methodical and deliberate as possible.
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Look at speed. Rpm only matters as measure of power in a fixed pitch prop.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It can happen on IFR vectors too. I was coming into a towered airport for a fly-in. Clouds were just low enough a whole bunch of folks were IFR. As they turned me downwind for th ILS, I was informed it would be extended due to traffic. A glance at the ADS-B readout told me what was going on so my readback included, "I can slow to 90 if it will help." "Thank you!" Was the emphatic ATC reply.
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WTH? I've been asked if I can adjust speed while on an approach. Why wait for the pilot to offer?

Most of the time, I'll comply, but the one time I got asked to do 120 on an LNAV approach in a 172, the answer was that my hamsters hadn't had their spinach that morning and couldn't sustain it. That was a weird one. It wasn't traffic behind me on the approach. It was other IFR traffic on approach to another airport in a much faster airplane (I think it was one of the SurfAir PC12s).
 
weilke said:
Look at speed. Rpm only matters as measure of power in a fixed pitch prop.
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I do. That's pretty much all I pay attention to right now - well, that and sound. But when I was learning, it was good to see what RPMs yielded what speeds.
 
weilke said:
Look at speed. Rpm only matters as measure of power in a fixed pitch prop.
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Well, MP if you have a CS prop (since the prop will be at high RPM for the approach).

It's still better to look at airspeed, but this isn't the reason.
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, MP if you have a CS prop (since the prop will be at high RPM for the approach).

It's still better to look at airspeed, but this isn't the reason.
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I have no idea what you are trying to express.
 
weilke said:
Look at speed. Rpm only matters as measure of power in a fixed pitch prop.
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I check it (RPM) so I'm not Captain Douchebag and end up sending the prop into "**** off the airport neighbors" mode when going full forward.
 
MetalCloud said:
I never look at RPM in the pattern. Ever. It's all about airspeed.
Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude. That's it. RPM shmarpm
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Hmmm ... abeam the numbers must be interesting using ASI only ....

weilke said:
Look at speed. Rpm only matters as measure of power in a fixed pitch prop.
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Chance of losing your TACH is a lot less than the ASI. I've lost ASI at least 3-4 times over 600+ hours. Set RPM abeam numbers and glance at ASI if you think you need to on final. For anyone practicing instrument to short final I can understand watching ASI a bit more.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Absolutely right.

One of the things too many CFIs don't do well is explain pattern operations at towered airports. You get a pretty decent taste for variety when you are based at one but if you're not, it seems to be an area that gets pretty short shrift. I wonder how many folks who fly almost exclusively at nontowered airports realize that all the ground reference maneuvers involve things you might be asked to do in the traffic pattern? There was an NTSB report some years ago involving a student pilot who was asked to do S-turns on final , crashed and was killed. It's one of the few NTSB reports that lays some blame o a CFI - improper instruction regarding the execution of s-turns on final approach to increase spacing.
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Only really having flown in and around Bravos all my primary lessons were at towered airports. KHPN, KCDW, & KIXD. I'm actually much more comfortable in a busy Class D than I am at a non-towered field.
 
labbadabba said:
Only really having flown in and around Bravos all my primary lessons were at towered airports. KHPN, KCDW, & KIXD. I'm actually much more comfortable in a busy Class D than I am at a non-towered field.
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Same here.
 
Same here! For my long XC for PPL, I went to a non-towered field. Was interesting to say the least.
 
danhagan said:
Chance of losing your TACH is a lot less than the ASI. I've lost ASI at least 3-4 times over 600+ hours.
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Really? I'd pony up and buy a better gauge, pitot tube, whatever.

I've got a FP prop, so it's really easy. Holding altitude at 75 KIAS dirty equals about 1720-1740 rpm.
 
MetalCloud said:
Same here! For my long XC for PPL, I went to a non-towered field. Was interesting to say the least.
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Yeah, it's give and take. You keep your eyes open, listen to radio calls and be prepared to make adjustments. But yes, there can be Wild West moments! :eek::D
 
MAKG1 said:
WTH? I've been asked if I can adjust speed while on an approach. Why wait for the pilot to offer?

Most of the time, I'll comply, but the one time I got asked to do 120 on an LNAV approach in a 172, the answer was that my hamsters hadn't had their spinach that morning and couldn't sustain it. That was a weird one. It wasn't traffic behind me on the approach. It was other IFR traffic on approach to another airport in a much faster airplane (I think it was one of the SurfAir PC12s).
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Why not offer if you think it might help the situation even if it is not offered?

Besides, I would prefer to slow down rather than fly to West Middlefart and, since decrease in airspeed is one of the mandatory reports, might as well let ATC know what you are doing.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Why not offer if you think it might help the situation even if it is not offered?

Besides, I would prefer to slow down rather than fly to West Middlefart and, since decrease in airspeed is one of the mandatory reports, might as well let ATC know what you are doing.
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Well, sure, but it shouldn't be necessary. ATC is much more aware of the big picture than we are. Of course there is nothing wrong with offering, but ATC really should have seen that. They know your type, so they should know Cat A is possible.
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, sure, but it shouldn't be necessary. ATC is much more aware of the big picture than we are. Of course there is nothing wrong with offering, but ATC really should have seen that. They know your type, so they should know Cat A is possible.
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True. But they didn't ask so I offered.
 
MetalCloud said:
What do you mean?
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What's your method abeam the numbers? You indicated you never use tach (ASI only). Seems like you'd be chasing speed as you reduce throttle to try and hit a "target" speed ...

SoCal RV Flyer said:
Really? I'd pony up and buy a better gauge, pitot tube, whatever.

I've got a FP prop, so it's really easy. Holding altitude at 75 KIAS dirty equals about 1720-1740 rpm.
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I guess I did indirectly ... those ASI failures were on rental AC after departure. I own my own aircraft now ...
 
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