ILAFFT: Almost Killed my Family on an Instrument Approach

midwestpa24 said:
Re-reading the OP's post. I'm curious if the approach, and the airplane's equipment, had LPV or LNAV/VNAV available for that particular RNAV approach.
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Given the description, it sounds like the OP wasn't yet at the IF, and so any vertical modes would not yet have been active.
 
Sounds like the OP did a great job realizing it rather than pressing on.

On a side-note this is why I think synthetic vision is one of the most valuable tools in my airplane. It really helps with situational awareness and keeps me much calmer while in IMC.
 
Arnold said:
Under what circumstance do controllers inhibit the MSAW alert?
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Aircraft that have canceled IFR and are still on a MSAW alerting discrete code. VFR aircraft if their code subset allows MSAW alerting. ARTCC can also inhibit an E-MSAW. A common example is for military aircraft doing IR MTRs.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Sounds like the OP did a great job realizing it rather than pressing on.

On a side-note this is why I think synthetic vision is one of the most valuable tools in my airplane. It really helps with situational awareness and keeps me much calmer while in IMC.
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We don't have any terrain for a thousand miles to worry about! ;)
 
Velocity173 said:
Aircraft that have canceled IFR and are still on a MSAW alerting discrete code. VFR aircraft if their code subset allows MSAW alerting. ARTCC can also inhibit an E-MSAW. A common example is for military aircraft doing IR MTRs.
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Thanks.
 
Rushie said:
I used to fly IFR sims all the time (not rated) but that was a program long gone. Are there any available now that have actual approaches you can fly before you do it IRL? I think Mark used to do that, I’ll have to ask him when he gets home.
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Yes, and they're very helpful. I use X-Plane, and my iPad with FF. XP can send its position to FF on the iPad, so I use the EFB I use when actually flying, and the iPad displays my simulated position on the Jepp or government plate with a blue dot just like when flying. It gives the same low altitude alterts as when flying.
 
Arnold said:
Thanks.
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Basically what I’m getting at is, should the controller have it inhibited? Nope, but that doesn’t mean she didn’t. There’s also a volume knob that can be adjusted as well. Could have been turned way too low.

At an approach facility, especially a busy one, you’ve got hundreds of MSAW alerts going off in any one day. 99 % of them are a waste. It gets to the point of what is called “cry wolf” scenario. Controllers tend to get complacent in that regard.

Edit: I was being facetious with the 99 %. Only 87 % are a waste. :)

231DCC89-FE9B-4BD8-85C9-E80CA1B357CF.jpeg
 
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asicer said:
OP said "GTN".
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The OP sure did. There is not just one "GTN" anymore. And we don't know if they have one navigation display or multiple ones that can have different things displayed. So, its a more comprehensive question.
 
As a CFII I don’t even need the plates for the approaches in the local area anymore, I have done them so many times with students. For my proficiency I like to go somewhere completely different and do a few approaches. It keeps me on edge, refreshes my skills, and makes it more interesting. I will go up once a month and do approaches usually taking my friend that loves to fail things on me, distract me, and critique me.
 
TommyG said:
As a CFII I don’t even need the plates for the approaches in the local area anymore, I have done them so many times with students.
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Somewhat off-topic, but this points to something that I think was lost when we went to all-EFB plates. When I would get the paper updates from Jepp for California, the filing process often gave me an opportunity to study unfamiliar approaches, and see how even small changes evolved on approaches I knew well. Now you run an automated update and you likely don't even know what changed.

(For you newbies here, we used to have to carry these thick binder books with approaches covering entire states or regions....back in the dark ages, about 10 years ago.)
 
Thanks for posting this... bookmarking the page so I can go back and re-read it later. I'm currently studying for my instrument, so this hits home. I can see myself being in that same situation. It reminds me of something I heard in a training video somewhere - if you blow an altitude or location in IFR, you're *probably* just going to get yelled at, but if you miss an altitude or turn on final, it could be the last thing you do. I think they said that not to dramatize anything, but to point out that while most accidents in aviation follow the 'swiss cheese' model, missing one thing on an approach can be an exception to that.

I probably have the least instrument experience of anyone on this thread, so feel free to ignore this post, but here are some thoughts on how to reduce risk margin, if you're looking to do that. Not being critical at all.

- don't fly actual instrument approaches to anywhere you haven't flown it practice with someone else, if you can avoid it. Pretty restrictive, though.
- like above, but only restricted to approaches with high terrain on the approach side. Here in the NE that's not too tough to do.
- pull up each approach on the sectional, too, to get an idea of what the terrain is really like. Probably easy to do, I do this anyway because I'm chicken not to.
- if you're flying with a non-pilot adult, teach them how to read an approach plate, and brief approaches with you. Based on this story, I think I'm going to do that. GF doesn't fly, but is smarter and more detail oriented than I am. Who's to say I can't do CRM with a non-pilot?

Glad you made it, and glad you posted this.
 
EdFred said:
We don't have any terrain for a thousand miles to worry about! ;)
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Idk..when I first enrolled in flight school, we had a guy kicked out for slaloming the antennas east of Wiley Post. (OKC area) He then claimed it was an accident because it’s so flat and was only bragging because he didn’t want to admit he’d made that kind of mistake.
 
OP
Thank you for sharing. At our airline, the very few in our ranks that aren’t fun to fly with are people who are so arrogant they think they have nothing to learn and never make mistakes. This, almost to a tee has its root in a lack of talent and insecurity about that. If it’s not at the beginning, their lack of “teachability” soon makes them subpar and it ends up that way. The fact that you are confident and secure enough to tell this story and seek out experience and critique from your peers here will serve you as long as you choose to fly. The day I stop learning, I need to retire. If I have too much ego to learn from a new hire, or even from a pilot that is clearly weaker in most areas, then I will stop growing. And there is no stagnation. We are either actively improving, at least a little bit, or we are atrophying. And the atrophy happens at a lot faster rate. I’ve learned from you and all the experience on this thread tonight, so thank you.

A couple points. My father was ATC. It’s been said, ATC will do their best, but they are never flying your airplane for you. You’re responsible. I cut my teeth at Great Lakes airlines flying into the Rocky Mountain towns. You’re often outside of radar contact on any approach there. It was healthy for me, bc any help from ATC has always been an added benefit, but it’s never to be counted on. I understand you don’t believe you were out of radar contact, so I would honestly not be afraid of calling that facility and having a heart to heart with them. Sanitize it if you’d like, but they’ll likely appreciate helping a pilot get better. Knowing their MVAs and any other insider knowledge will help you there and at other similar airports.

Last, I have some of my best friends that fly for Fedex. They brag about how they’ll often fly less than 200 hours a year. We came up in the regionals where we all had about 3-4 years where we flew north of 1100 hours a year. I now fly 700-900 or so. They laugh at me for working so hard and I always joke back that I don’t think I’d be any good if I flew that little. The stakes are high. Any commercial pilot will be on CNN in Thailand if we crash, but….You’ve got your family on board. Are they really higher for us? You can come up with the best new and revised SOP in the world, but if you don’t practice it often, it won’t help when you’re in it. I agree with the poster above that suggested a small home simulator like x-plane. It’s such a cool time in aviation where these are getting better and better. And of course…fly with a CFII more than you might need to. Tell them this story. I just don’t believe it’s possible to work too much at this great thing we’ve all managed to learn how to do.
But again, I have nothing but the best compliments on how you’re approaching this mistake. Listen to the posters here. There’s a wealth of knowledge.
 
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Scott Mitchell said:
OP
Thank you for sharing. At our airline, the very few in our ranks that aren’t fun to fly with are people who are so arrogant they think they have nothing to learn and never make mistakes. This, almost to a tee has its root in a lack of talent and insecurity about that. If it’s not at the beginning, their lack of “teachability” soon makes them subpar and it ends up that way. The fact that you are confident and secure enough to tell this story and seek out experience and critique from your peers here will serve you as long as you choose to fly. The day I stop learning, I need to retire. If I have too much ego to learn from a new hire, or even from a pilot that is clearly weaker in most areas, then I will stop growing. And there is no stagnation. We are either actively improving, at least a little bit, or we are atrophying. And the atrophy happens at a lot faster rate. I’ve learned from you and all the experience on this thread tonight, so thank you.

A couple points. My father was ATC. It’s been said, ATC will do their best, but they are never flying your airplane for you. You’re responsible. I cut my teeth at Great Lakes airlines flying into the Rocky Mountain towns. You’re often outside of radar contact on any approach there. It was healthy for me, bc any help from ATC has always been an added benefit, but it’s never to be counted on. I understand you don’t believe you were out of radar contact, so I would honestly not be afraid of calling that facility and having a heart to heart with them. Sanitize it if you’d like, but they’ll likely appreciate helping a pilot get better. Knowing their MVAs and any other insider knowledge will help you there and at other similar airports.

Last, I have some of my best friends that fly for Fedex. They brag about how they’ll often fly less than 200 hours a year. We came up in the regionals where we all had about 3-4 years where we flew north of 1100 hours a year. I now fly 700-900 or so. They laugh at me for working so hard and I always joke back that I don’t think I’d be any good if I flew that little. The stakes are high. Any commercial pilot will be on CNN in Thailand if we crash, but….You’ve got your family on board. Are they really higher for us? You can come up with the best new and revised SOP in the world, but if you don’t practice it often, it won’t help when you’re in it. I agree with the poster above that suggested a small home simulator like x-plane. It’s such a cool time in aviation where these are getting better and better. And of course…fly with a CFII more than you might need to. Tell them this story. I just don’t believe it’s possible to work too much at this great thing we’ve all managed to learn how to do.
But again, I have nothing but the best compliments on how you’re approaching this mistake. Listen to the posters here. There’s a wealth of knowledge.
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Excellent post.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Somewhat off-topic, but this points to something that I think was lost when we went to all-EFB plates. When I would get the paper updates from Jepp for California, the filing process often gave me an opportunity to study unfamiliar approaches, and see how even small changes evolved on approaches I knew well. Now you run an automated update and you likely don't even know what changed.

(For you newbies here, we used to have to carry these thick binder books with approaches covering entire states or regions....back in the dark ages, about 10 years ago.)
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That only applied to Jepp charts. For those of us using FAA charts, the case is similar to today, since you didn't replace individual charts, you replaced the whole book for that area.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Somewhat off-topic, but this points to something that I think was lost when we went to all-EFB plates. When I would get the paper updates from Jepp for California, the filing process often gave me an opportunity to study unfamiliar approaches, and see how even small changes evolved on approaches I knew well. Now you run an automated update and you likely don't even know what changed.

(For you newbies here, we used to have to carry these thick binder books with approaches covering entire states or regions....back in the dark ages, about 10 years ago.)
Click to expand...

I got my instrument rating 25 years ago, but I don't recall filing anything. May be that was a Jepp thing. We simply tossed the old book in the trash and bought a new one.
 
RussR said:
That only applied to Jepp charts. For those of us using FAA charts, the case is similar to today, since you didn't replace individual charts, you replaced the whole book for that area.
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Yes, this was for Jepp only. At the time, the Jepp charts had several graphical improvements over the the fed-gov charts, so I really preferred Jepp, and the update service was the cheapest way to go. The layout of the gov charts has improved a lot in the last 20 years.
 
TruConfessions said:
Welp... I feel like I almost killed myself and my family of four over a stupid, stupid mistake - a simple misreading of a chart on an IFR approach.

I think the purpose of this thread is multi-parted: 1) to get this off my chest, 2) to see if anyone has recommendations on how to avoid this in the future, and 3) to understand the role of ATC in this situation. I always thought they would have been a back-stop in this scenario.

Anyway, we had very hazy conditions for a flight recently. I had expected VFR conditions throughout but our destination airport went IFR in a thick, soupy haze. No matter - I happened to be on an IFR flight plan. It was the most benign IMC conditions possible - low visibility in haze but no moisture to speak of, no icing concerns. All in all a pretty ideal little practice IMC / approach scenario.

This was a new destination to me. I had never shot this approach before or landed at the airport before. I'm PPL/IR rated, IFR current (just took and passed an IPC with "flying colors"), roughly 1,000 hours totally, fly my own plane 100+ hours a year, have a nice GTN panel with GPSS and single-axis autopilot.

I requested and was cleared for an RNAV approach. It was a pretty standard “T-shaped” approach, and I was cleared via one of the “T”’s initial approach fixes and feeder routes. I was cleared to that IAF “N1234 cleared direct IAF, cross IAF at or above 5,000, cleared RNAV Runway XX approach”.

I had already done a full briefing of the approach. Frequencies, altitudes, routes, waypoints, DAs, missed approach, terrain – the whole thing. I had had plenty of time to prepare and I don’t get the opportunity to fly that many actual approaches due to the typical weather in our area, so I was really paying attention.

I scanned the approach again and picked up the altitude for the feeder rout – 2,000’ – and after crossing the IAF, I started my descent from my “at or above 5,000’” altitude down to 2,000.

Things were fine. No visibility going forward or out the side windows. Just a touch of visibility/ground contact if I looked straight down. Autopilot’s GPSS is tracking the approach perfectly.

I descend to 4,000.

Then to 3,500.

Pretty soon, out of the haze, I start to notice some bumpy hills appearing through the mist. And they’re not that far away. I’m probably still 1,000 feet above them and offset laterally, but my mind starts thinking:

I can’t believe this approach gets that close to these hills... Doesn’t seem right…

…well, we *are* offset, so maybe it’s protected by the lateral boundaries…

…but still, this would be considered mountainous terrain – it should have 2,000’ minimum within 2+ miles either side and there’s no way I have that clearance…

…Something has to be wrong…

I go back to the chart and study it, and I suddenly realize my error. It’s not a standard T-shaped RNAV approach really… close, but not quite. There’s a stepdown fix halfway between the IAF and the holding fix and a long skinny little arrow pointing to the segment I’m on that notes “5,000 NoPT”. It’s only after the next fix, that the altitude is 2,000. And here I am descending through 3,500’.

My heart leaps and I pour on the coals.

“ABC Approach, N12345. I just realized I have mis-read the approach. I am well below the published altitude. Do you want me to stay here or climb back to the published altitude?” It was a stupid question and I was already on my way back up, but it was the best I could muster given the circumstances.

A polite and not even sort of perturbed young lady responds “N1234, you should be at the published altitude, so I would suggest a climb back to that altitude”.

And that was it. No scolding, no fanfare. The rest of the approach went perfectly, emerging from the haze directly in line with the runway at about 500 feet.

In retrospect, I am having a hard time not beating myself up about this. I remember one similar circumstance way back when I was doing my IFR training on a VOR approach where there was a slight turn in the approach on the fix just before the FAF. I missed the turn and eventually my CFII recommended I take my hood off. His recommendation was premature – I wasn’t at MDA, when he would normally make that recommendation – so I knew something had gone wrong. And it had. Missing that little bend in the approach put us off course and aiming directly at the side of the mountain. It would have been catastrophic in actual conditions. A real lesson-learner.

But apparently, I didn’t learn that lesson. Or the lesson didn’t stick. Or I’m prone to missing details. Or something. I don’t know, and I don’t know what to do about it.

And what about ATC? 1,500’ below published altitude? I know I’m the PIC and responsible for the flight – I’m not shirking that at all – but I’m still surprised. All throughout my training I assumed that if I was more than 100’ off or so, I’d get barked at. And even on this exact flight I had a moment’s inattention and got a “N1234 I need you at 9,000, altitutde inditates 9,200”. Now, it didn’t indicate 9,200 – I was only showing 100 feet over with the correct altimeter setting so I’m not sure what to make of that, but still.

I filed an ASRS report as soon as I got home. In the “notes” section I noted that while I briefed the approach, I did so in the air. In the future, I need to brief approaches earlier – ideally on the ground, when there are no distractions, no time pressures, no demands of flying the plane. And obviously, I need to be absolutely, 100% sure about altitudes for EVERY segment, every time. But I’m not sure what else to do.

Thanks for reading. I’d love to hear your comments or suggestions. If you’re going to be negative, fine – I can take it – but know that you can’t beat me up any harder than I am already beating myself up. Cheers.
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I don't think controllers get in trouble if you mess up terrain clearance -- it's only if you get too closer to another plane. And if they're not worried about getting in trouble, they're probably not too interested in making a report.

Sure, beat yourself up a little, just enough to learn the lesson (we pilots all need to do that sometimes), but then cut yourself some slack also give yourself a pat on the back for having the courage to fess up to ATC that you'd make a mistake. If they'd been routing some VFR traffic far below you (e.g. a helicopter), it might have been helpful.
 
TruConfessions said:
Welp... I feel like I almost killed myself and my family of four over a stupid, stupid mistake - a simple misreading of a chart on an IFR approach.

I think the purpose of this thread is multi-parted: 1) to get this off my chest, 2) to see if anyone has recommendations on how to avoid this in the future, and 3) to understand the role of ATC in this situation. I always thought they would have been a back-stop in this scenario.

Anyway, we had very hazy conditions for a flight recently. I had expected VFR conditions throughout but our destination airport went IFR in a thick, soupy haze. No matter - I happened to be on an IFR flight plan. It was the most benign IMC conditions possible - low visibility in haze but no moisture to speak of, no icing concerns. All in all a pretty ideal little practice IMC / approach scenario.

This was a new destination to me. I had never shot this approach before or landed at the airport before. I'm PPL/IR rated, IFR current (just took and passed an IPC with "flying colors"), roughly 1,000 hours totally, fly my own plane 100+ hours a year, have a nice GTN panel with GPSS and single-axis autopilot.

I requested and was cleared for an RNAV approach. It was a pretty standard “T-shaped” approach, and I was cleared via one of the “T”’s initial approach fixes and feeder routes. I was cleared to that IAF “N1234 cleared direct IAF, cross IAF at or above 5,000, cleared RNAV Runway XX approach”.

I had already done a full briefing of the approach. Frequencies, altitudes, routes, waypoints, DAs, missed approach, terrain – the whole thing. I had had plenty of time to prepare and I don’t get the opportunity to fly that many actual approaches due to the typical weather in our area, so I was really paying attention.

I scanned the approach again and picked up the altitude for the feeder rout – 2,000’ – and after crossing the IAF, I started my descent from my “at or above 5,000’” altitude down to 2,000.

Things were fine. No visibility going forward or out the side windows. Just a touch of visibility/ground contact if I looked straight down. Autopilot’s GPSS is tracking the approach perfectly.

I descend to 4,000.

Then to 3,500.

Pretty soon, out of the haze, I start to notice some bumpy hills appearing through the mist. And they’re not that far away. I’m probably still 1,000 feet above them and offset laterally, but my mind starts thinking:

I can’t believe this approach gets that close to these hills... Doesn’t seem right…

…well, we *are* offset, so maybe it’s protected by the lateral boundaries…

…but still, this would be considered mountainous terrain – it should have 2,000’ minimum within 2+ miles either side and there’s no way I have that clearance…

…Something has to be wrong…

I go back to the chart and study it, and I suddenly realize my error. It’s not a standard T-shaped RNAV approach really… close, but not quite. There’s a stepdown fix halfway between the IAF and the holding fix and a long skinny little arrow pointing to the segment I’m on that notes “5,000 NoPT”. It’s only after the next fix, that the altitude is 2,000. And here I am descending through 3,500’.

My heart leaps and I pour on the coals.

“ABC Approach, N12345. I just realized I have mis-read the approach. I am well below the published altitude. Do you want me to stay here or climb back to the published altitude?” It was a stupid question and I was already on my way back up, but it was the best I could muster given the circumstances.

A polite and not even sort of perturbed young lady responds “N1234, you should be at the published altitude, so I would suggest a climb back to that altitude”.

And that was it. No scolding, no fanfare. The rest of the approach went perfectly, emerging from the haze directly in line with the runway at about 500 feet.

In retrospect, I am having a hard time not beating myself up about this. I remember one similar circumstance way back when I was doing my IFR training on a VOR approach where there was a slight turn in the approach on the fix just before the FAF. I missed the turn and eventually my CFII recommended I take my hood off. His recommendation was premature – I wasn’t at MDA, when he would normally make that recommendation – so I knew something had gone wrong. And it had. Missing that little bend in the approach put us off course and aiming directly at the side of the mountain. It would have been catastrophic in actual conditions. A real lesson-learner.

But apparently, I didn’t learn that lesson. Or the lesson didn’t stick. Or I’m prone to missing details. Or something. I don’t know, and I don’t know what to do about it.

And what about ATC? 1,500’ below published altitude? I know I’m the PIC and responsible for the flight – I’m not shirking that at all – but I’m still surprised. All throughout my training I assumed that if I was more than 100’ off or so, I’d get barked at. And even on this exact flight I had a moment’s inattention and got a “N1234 I need you at 9,000, altitutde inditates 9,200”. Now, it didn’t indicate 9,200 – I was only showing 100 feet over with the correct altimeter setting so I’m not sure what to make of that, but still.

I filed an ASRS report as soon as I got home. In the “notes” section I noted that while I briefed the approach, I did so in the air. In the future, I need to brief approaches earlier – ideally on the ground, when there are no distractions, no time pressures, no demands of flying the plane. And obviously, I need to be absolutely, 100% sure about altitudes for EVERY segment, every time. But I’m not sure what else to do.

Thanks for reading. I’d love to hear your comments or suggestions. If you’re going to be negative, fine – I can take it – but know that you can’t beat me up any harder than I am already beating myself up. Cheers.
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I don't think controllers get in trouble if you mess up terrain clearance yourself -- it's only if you get too close to another plane. And if they're not worried about getting in trouble, they're probably not too interested in taking the time to make a report.

Sure, beat yourself up a little, just enough to learn the lesson (we pilots all need to do that sometimes), but then cut yourself some slack also give yourself a pat on the back for having the courage to fess up to ATC that you'd make a mistake. If they'd been routing some VFR traffic far below you (e.g. a helicopter), it might have been helpful.
 
As a claims adjuster who has been to many tragic crash sites that started like this, I thank you. Introspection is a very good thing after a near miss. GA IFR in real IMC is very unforgiving and the mostly hobby nature of the pilot in GA doesn't help. I have my own strict personal minimums now after what I've seen. We have to stay IFR proficient for work but I won't take my family up in IMC. Hell, I can count on one hand the times my wife has flown with me over the last 10 years. I have no desire to make her, only when she asks.

But good for you for taking the time to think through what happened publicly. That takes courage and you will certainly learn from it and be better pilot in the long run.
 
David Megginson said:
I don't think controllers get in trouble if you mess up terrain clearance yourself -- it's only if you get too close to another plane. And if they're not worried about getting in trouble, they're probably not too interested in taking the time to make a report.

Sure, beat yourself up a little, just enough to learn the lesson (we pilots all need to do that sometimes), but then cut yourself some slack also give yourself a pat on the back for having the courage to fess up to ATC that you'd make a mistake. If they'd been routing some VFR traffic far below you (e.g. a helicopter), it might have been helpful.
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Depends. Whether it’s loss of applicable separation terrain or another aircraft, if it’s not attributed to the controller (Operational Error), they won’t get into trouble. However, a pilot error that results in a conflict alert (CA CA) with another aircraft or a low altitude alert (MSAW) with terrain / obstructions, they better issue a safety alert or they can get into trouble.
 
If had a concern about terrain during an approach, I would execute a missed approach and do the analysis of what went wrong above the MSA (possibly even in the holding pattern). Once a mistake of that magnitude is realized, and I pucker up a bit, I don't trust that I can analyze and resolve at low altitude while continuing to fly the approach.

You didn't mention it in your stated reasons for posting this, but it really is valuable to the rest of this community for you to share this story so we can all reflect on the situation. It is much better for the community to learn from a near-miss confession than learn from an accident report.
 
If OP does not want to share which approach it was, perhaps he or she could find another one that is similar.
 
I read the OP post, and the responses...I'm going to be the opposing viewpoint I guess.

Maybe the OP should consider being a VFR only pilot. The OP mentions doing something similar before. So, although I agree not to "beat yourself up", but maybe the lesson here is that IFR isn't for you. We are all human, and I'm saying this knowing I'm certainly not above making mistakes. But making them over again? And I find reading an IFR chart for altitude (or heading) is dirt simple yet ridiculously important... Its so simple but important, if I personally screwed it up, even once, I think I'd be done with IFR myself. With the responses here I guess its just me, but then I'm good with that.
 
tawood said:
I read the OP post, and the responses...I'm going to be the opposing viewpoint I guess.

Maybe the OP should consider being a VFR only pilot. The OP mentions doing something similar before. So, although I agree not to "beat yourself up", but maybe the lesson here is that IFR isn't for you. We are all human, and I'm saying this knowing I'm certainly not above making mistakes. But making them over again? And I find reading an IFR chart for altitude (or heading) is dirt simple yet ridiculously important... Its so simple but important, if I personally screwed it up, even once, I think I'd be done with IFR myself. With the responses here I guess its just me, but then I'm good with that.
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I don't think that is a fair assessment. I've done dumb mistakes, including stretching the fuel range and flying into icing conditions. Two decades later, I am a very safe pilot, not in spite of those dumb mistakes, but because of them. Every mistake I have made has left a permanent scar in my psyche and altered the course of my flying habits. The OP took ownership of his screwup, and is looking for advice on how to be better. Those are great characteristics. Show me a pilot who has never made a mistake, and I will show you a liar.
 
I don’t know, I don’t think a couple of mistakes in 1,000 hrs shows a trend. Note the error, take it seriously and move on. I’d stress that if you continue to have lapses in awareness, that maybe instrument flight just isn’t for you. Single pilot with family on board and no one to catch your mistakes must be taken seriously.
 
sarangan said:
I don't think that is a fair assessment. I've done dumb mistakes, including stretching the fuel range and flying into icing conditions. Two decades later, I am a very safe pilot, not in spite of those dumb mistakes, but because of them. Every mistake I have made has left a permanent scar in my psyche and altered the course of my flying habits. The OP took ownership of his screwup, and is looking for advice on how to be better. Those are great characteristics. Show me a pilot who has never made a mistake, and I will show you a liar.
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Perhaps you and I are reading the post differently. I was under the impression that the op has 1000 hours, but the mistakes are not 1000 hours apart…as your response seems to imply.
 
tawood said:
Maybe the OP should consider being a VFR only pilot. The OP mentions doing something similar before.
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?? He mentioned making a mistake as an IFR student. This is a really harsh assessment.

A more productive assessment is that he might benefit from more time in a simulator, practicing unfamiliar approaches.

Any pilot who thinks they aren't missing *something*, on occasion, scares me. There is always something you can do better, no matter your experience level.
 
tawood said:
Perhaps you and I are reading the post differently. I was under the impression that the op has 1000 hours, but the mistakes are not 1000 hours apart…as your response seems to imply.
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You are right, I didn't pay attention to the hours, but I don't think it matters. He recognized that he screwed up, may be twice, but he is critically examining how to make sure it doesn't happen again. In my opinion, he is half way there already. I've flown with pilots who never even recognized they were too low on an approach, and blissfully unaware that they almost collided with terrain. They scare me. This guy doesn't.
 
tawood said:
I read the OP post, and the responses...I'm going to be the opposing viewpoint I guess.

Maybe the OP should consider being a VFR only pilot. The OP mentions doing something similar before. So, although I agree not to "beat yourself up", but maybe the lesson here is that IFR isn't for you. We are all human, and I'm saying this knowing I'm certainly not above making mistakes. But making them over again? And I find reading an IFR chart for altitude (or heading) is dirt simple yet ridiculously important... Its so simple but important, if I personally screwed it up, even once, I think I'd be done with IFR myself. With the responses here I guess its just me, but then I'm good with that.
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This may or may not be appropriate but I don't think we know enough about OP to say. The best solution to prevent mistakes, especially one that is made more than once, is to come up with a systematic method to prevent them.

Perhaps OP needs a new briefing style and/or as others have said, to practice unfamiliar approaches more often. I've found highlighting and making other annotations on charts on the EFB a great way to recognize and remember key aspects of a procedure.
 
Rgbeard said:
I'm fortunate to have access to a Redbird ATD and often choose to fly unusual and previously-unknown approaches.

It's good mental floss.
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I do several per week on my x-pane sim with some rudimentary flight controls (yoke, rudder pedals, throttle). I normally fly an aircraft that is faster than what I normally fly. Using a faster aircraft makes the slower aircraft seem . . . slow.

Presently using a Baron. I can't log it but keep sharp. And I've learned much about using the GNS4/530 series devices. I've also been using the G1000.
 
If you are a pilot that hasn't made a mistake, you either never fly or can't admit the truth to themselves. We've all made mistakes at some point in time. Some small, like forgetting to turn the beacon on, or large, running a tank dry. The key is to acknowledge them, learn from them, and try to never make the BIG mistake. Even the best pilots make mistakes.
 
midwestpa24 said:
If you are a pilot that hasn't made a mistake, you either never fly or can't admit the truth to themselves. We've all made mistakes at some point in time. Some small, like forgetting to turn the beacon on, or large, running a tank dry. The key is to acknowledge them, learn from them, and try to never make the BIG mistake. Even the best pilots make mistakes.
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:yeahthat: We only learn from mistakes, usually ours, sometimes other's. Thanks very much to OP for posting his experience.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
?? He mentioned making a mistake as an IFR student. This is a really harsh assessment.

A more productive assessment is that he might benefit from more time in a simulator, practicing unfamiliar approaches.

Any pilot who thinks they aren't missing *something*, on occasion, scares me. There is always something you can do better, no matter your experience level.
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Have you ever mis-read an approach chart altitude or turn, while flying it? I've made some mistakes, but never one so simple, and twice no less. So what is your number? How many screw ups, on something simple yet deadly, before you either call it quits, or kill yourself and family?
 
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