labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
I use en-route charts to plot my route (/A fun times) and figure out my MEAs but when I fly I alsmost exclusevely use a sectional.
Is this a bad habit?
Is this a bad habit?
Someone flying with paper -- how refreshing! As a former II, I would prefer you have the Enroute on top with the Sectional underneath. Always wanted my students to fly with both. Sectionals serve their purpose for showing some info not on the Enroute. Enroute serve their purpose for displaying an uncluttered depiction of airways, navs and airports making it easier to navigate the IFR world. Just MHO.
I use en-route charts to plot my route (/A fun times) and figure out my MEAs but when I fly I alsmost exclusevely use a sectional.
Is this a bad habit?
I use en-route charts to plot my route (/A fun times) and figure out my MEAs but when I fly I alsmost exclusevely use a sectional.
Is this a bad habit?
No. Just have enroute charts available in case you need them.I use en-route charts to plot my route (/A fun times) and figure out my MEAs but when I fly I alsmost exclusevely use a sectional.
Is this a bad habit?
In a world where we seldom fly airways and are almost always in radar contact with ATC, the IFR Enroute Low charts are effectively irrelevant during flight. I do not remember the last time I used a Low chart while flying IFR (although of course I can always switch the tablet from the Sectional view if I want). Maybe occasionally for finding an unusual fix name or something.
In a world where we seldom fly airways and are almost always in radar contact with ATC, the IFR Enroute Low charts are effectively irrelevant during flight. I do not remember the last time I used a Low chart while flying IFR (although of course I can always switch the tablet from the Sectional view if I want). Maybe occasionally for finding an unusual fix name or something.
Yep, I do the same, and for the same reason.Even with foreflight, I plan with the enroute and during the flight I am 95% of the time using the sectional. I like looking at what I'm actually flying over terrain and location wise. Not just numbers
Here it is:In 1998, a Lear carrying Frank Sinatra's mother crashed into mountains east of San Diego. I can't find the accident report, but as I recall the operator of the charter company said "We're a jet company, we don't carry sectional charts" or something to that effect. As to whether they took off in darkness hoping to pick up an IFR clearance enroute, that was part of the investigation.
Bob
I use en-route charts to plot my route (/A fun times) and figure out my MEAs but when I fly I alsmost exclusevely use a sectional.
Is this a bad habit?
I use en-route charts to plot my route (/A fun times) and figure out my MEAs but when I fly I alsmost exclusevely use a sectional.
Is this a bad habit?
I'm another sectional user most of the time enroute, but I switch to the enroute charts as needed.
LOL, looks like @old cfi is making the common error of thinking whether or not a "sectional" is a sectional depends on the medium on which it is displayed
I may have been doing that myself. Is the OP talking about a sectional on his iPad? I thought by saying that he meant a paper one too. Now the whole thread confuses me. lol.
Sorry, I was not clear, I use my iPad but also have a paper sectional out as well.
But the point of the post is that while I'm flying IFR, 90% of the time I'm looking at a sectional rather than a Low En-route. Just wanted to see if that was unusual.
Are you looking at the paper sectional or the sectional on the iPad?
IPad mostly, but I keep the paper sectional clipped to my kneeboard. I find it helps with my overall awareness. Maybe as I become more experienced I'll feel more comfortable relying solely on my iPad with a sectional used in case I fry my tablet.
Yabut it's tough to fold the electronic version.Why does it matter if the sectional is ink or electronic? Its the same damn chart. Nothing is different other than its easier to hold.
I have not used a paper chart in flight for 6 years.Thanks. I wonder how many never use paper charts now. Since I last flew (getting back into it now) there were no iPads yet, and I think paper charts were still required, so just curious how many don't use paper at all any more. Or still use them.
I've told this one before. After a flight watching a pilot, fold, unfold, refold, and search for information on paper charts, my wife commented, "I see why you like your iPad."Yabut it's tough to fold the electronic version.
I have not used a paper chart in flight for 6 years.
In my case it might be more like 7 years - I think I bought my iPad in 2010. Long ago I had a subscription to a number of paper charts through VRotate, until they went out of business without warning. I carried a Michigan MDOT VFR chart with me for many years, since as long as I had my plane registered there they would send them to me every year for free. But I've been using Foreflight pretty much since the beginning.I have not used a paper chart in flight for 6 years.
While there are pros and cons of each format, it's amusing to me that people get so exercised over the fact that someone uses a different format than themselves.Why does it matter if the sectional is ink or electronic? Its the same damn chart. Nothing is different other than its easier to hold.
I turned off the location feature on a friends Ipad the other day and set the GTN to the traffic page so there was no moving map, flying from Watsonville to Concord. "Let's fly via pilotage" I said. Multiple times he asked if I was sure we weren't in the Class C or Class B. When asked where we were on the map he was more than 10 miles off more than once. That particular route has unlimited visual targets, figuring out where you are is really easy. Not only that he didn't even think to use the vors. I thought that was really scary. Especially since he has 300+ hours and Commercial and Instrument ratings. Went to one of those part 141 colleges.
Wow. There are several really easy routes for that, and especially the Class C boundaries are highways on the northeast side.
I take it no flight following either? That makes Class C trivial. Staying below Class B is really easy unless you insist on skirting the Bay (that's not the shortest route anyway).
My concern about all the gadgets is just this overdependence on them. That should have been an easy flight. Especially with a commercial certificate.
I wonder if he can still do a VOR or LOC approach. Sometimes GPS doesn't work.
You might be thinking of the HS125 carrying Reba McEntire's band that hit a mountain east of Brown Field, San Diego, in 1991 (https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001212X16614&key=1). The departure was late, around 0145 local, and the prefiled IFR flight plan had gone stale. The crew wanted to depart VFR and stay below the San Diego TCA (now Class B) airspace, but a mountain got in the way.In 1998, a Lear carrying Frank Sinatra's mother crashed into mountains east of San Diego. I can't find the accident report, but as I recall the operator of the charter company said "We're a jet company, we don't carry sectional charts" or something to that effect. As to whether they took off in darkness hoping to pick up an IFR clearance enroute, that was part of the investigation.
I turned off the location feature on a friends Ipad the other day and set the GTN to the traffic page so there was no moving map, flying from Watsonville to Concord. "Let's fly via pilotage" I said. Multiple times he asked if I was sure we weren't in the Class C or Class B. When asked where we were on the map he was more than 10 miles off more than once. That particular route has unlimited visual targets, figuring out where you are is really easy. Not only that he didn't even think to use the vors. I thought that was really scary. Especially since he has 300+ hours and Commercial and Instrument ratings. Went to one of those part 141 colleges.
I agree with you. He isn't IFR current... my point is that there you have someone who can be hired to fly, and he can't fly comfortably without a gps of some sort. Being able to fly with just a map is looked at as an "unsafe" thing to do. And that attitude, to me, is unsafe but very common.
I'm sure you don't have to go far to find instrument pilots who won't fly without a moving map... scary
I'm not going to fly without a moving map. Not because I cannot safely do so, but because the moving map represents an extra layer of SA that I consider a big enough benefit that I choose not to fly without it. Nothing "scary" about it. No different than any other personal minimums one may set. Doesn't make me a lesser pilot than someone who is willing to fly without one.
Heck, tomorrow, I'm making a CAP mission pilot candidate find and execute a latitude/longitude grid search in isolated terrain with no electronic aids, as a practice for his qualification ride. I've no doubt he will do it. The last place you want to be heads down is 1000 AGL flying slowly in mountainous terrain. Bad things can happen in a real hurry when your iThing is doing your thinking for you.
You don't need to be an EFB user for that. I flew with a newly-rated instrument pilot years ago who had difficulty finding is position over an intersection marked by a big interstate and large crossing road without taking VOR cross-radials.I turned off the location feature on a friends Ipad the other day and set the GTN to the traffic page so there was no moving map, flying from Watsonville to Concord. "Let's fly via pilotage" I said. Multiple times he asked if I was sure we weren't in the Class C or Class B. When asked where we were on the map he was more than 10 miles off more than once. That particular route has unlimited visual targets, figuring out where you are is really easy. Not only that he didn't even think to use the vors. I thought that was really scary. Especially since he has 300+ hours and Commercial and Instrument ratings. Went to one of those part 141 colleges.
Everything in the air is supposed to be covered twice over. And sometimes the MO is a trainee; one of the key tasks of an MP is to train MOs.Isn't the MO supposed to handle that stuff though?
I also don't think that he's saying that he CAN'T fly w/o a moving map but I don't think there's much arguing that it provides additional SA.