IFR with sectionals

For what it's worth, I agree that a lot of straw men have been built and smashed in this thread.

But to be unwilling to fly without two different versions of uncertified software running on uncertified el3ctronic units to show you where you are is hardly a safe attitude. Ipads overheat, Iphones lose signals, and uncertified software sometimes does strange things.

You want to be safe, with two pink lines leading you everywhere? Use your tablet for electronic sectionals, enroutes and plates if you want, carry paper backups, and use one (or two) certified, approach approved, panel-mounted aviation GPS units to navigate. And for God's sake, look away from the pretty screens and keep your attention focused outside the durn airplane! When ATC calls traffic, look out the window, not down at your lap to see if it's showing on your precious i-thing, because I won't show up there (and yes, I fly IFR and IMC).

People get airspace busts regularly because the GPS chip in their iPad isn't near as accurate as the one in my panel-mounted WAAS unit. Which would you trust to stay 1 nm outside of Bravo space? I skirt ATL's Bravo regularly, and have threaded my way (VFR) between hot R space with mine. Don't try that with an uncertified unit, Approach won't like it . . .
 
Hank S said:
For what it's worth, I agree that a lot of straw men have been built and smashed in this thread.

But to be unwilling to fly without two different versions of uncertified software running on uncertified el3ctronic units to show you where you are is hardly a safe attitude. Ipads overheat, Iphones lose signals, and uncertified software sometimes does strange things.

You want to be safe, with two pink lines leading you everywhere? Use your tablet for electronic sectionals, enroutes and plates if you want, carry paper backups, and use one (or two) certified, approach approved, panel-mounted aviation GPS units to navigate. And for God's sake, look away from the pretty screens and keep your attention focused outside the durn airplane! When ATC calls traffic, look out the window, not down at your lap to see if it's showing on your precious i-thing, because I won't show up there (and yes, I fly IFR and IMC).

People get airspace busts regularly because the GPS chip in their iPad isn't near as accurate as the one in my panel-mounted WAAS unit. Which would you trust to stay 1 nm outside of Bravo space? I skirt ATL's Bravo regularly, and have threaded my way (VFR) between hot R space with mine. Don't try that with an uncertified unit, Approach won't like it . . .
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I agree with most of what you say, but with good signal the iPad GPS will have accuracy in the 10 meter range or better.
 
ZeroPapaGolf said:
I agree with most of what you say, but with good signal the iPad GPS will have accuracy in the 10 meter range or better.
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Most of the time . . . .

With a good signal . . . Ever have a problem with that in the air? Not on my certified panel mount.

It's never bounced out of my lap or fallen off of the yoke clip, either.
 
Hank S said:
It's never bounced out of my lap or fallen off of the yoke clip, either.
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It's funny how the goal posts are always being moved. First it's "well, the accuracy sucks", then it becomes "okay, but you might drop it".
 
Hank S said:
Talk out both sides of your mouth very often? You berate him for putting you down, say "it's fine" to plan and fly however you want, and that only fools put down people who believe differently.

Then it's "irresponsible" to not fly without at least two GPS units leading you on, with electronic and paper charts. Then paper charts (that you prefer not to use) are "antiquated."

Whatever happened to "when you put someone else down simply because they don't believe as you, that just shows that you're a fool"? Or does that lofty sentiment only apply to other people when they are discussing you, and doesn't apply to your own expressed views about others???
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Not talking out of both sides of my mouth, directly out the front as usual. You're just not understanding what you're reading. What level of preparation is required is up to each individual. My point (which apparently I have to clearly spell out lest some twist it to whatever they want) was that not doing what the individual believes to be the safest, sanest, most efficient way to fly FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL would be irresponsible. I hope that clears it up for you.
 
Hank S said:
For what it's worth, I agree that a lot of straw men have been built and smashed in this thread.

But to be unwilling to fly without two different versions of uncertified software running on uncertified el3ctronic units to show you where you are is hardly a safe attitude. Ipads overheat, Iphones lose signals, and uncertified software sometimes does strange things.

You want to be safe, with two pink lines leading you everywhere? Use your tablet for electronic sectionals, enroutes and plates if you want, carry paper backups, and use one (or two) certified, approach approved, panel-mounted aviation GPS units to navigate. And for God's sake, look away from the pretty screens and keep your attention focused outside the durn airplane! When ATC calls traffic, look out the window, not down at your lap to see if it's showing on your precious i-thing, because I won't show up there (and yes, I fly IFR and IMC).

People get airspace busts regularly because the GPS chip in their iPad isn't near as accurate as the one in my panel-mounted WAAS unit. Which would you trust to stay 1 nm outside of Bravo space? I skirt ATL's Bravo regularly, and have threaded my way (VFR) between hot R space with mine. Don't try that with an uncertified unit, Approach won't like it . . .
Click to expand...

What makes you think that the moving map to which I refer is only an iPad? Perhaps its the 430 in the panel, which is certified for IFR operations. The fact that you call technology "pretty screens" says a lot about your attitude. And there is more to flying than just looking outside the plane. It's a balance of that and looking at the other tools that you have at your disposal to protect you from making mistakes, which everyone (except you, obviously) does from time to time.

I just love how you make so many assumptions based on nothing but your own biases.
 
Rykymus said:
Honestly, if you seriously think choosing to use the moving map and a digital chart instead of antiquated pieces of paper and a whiz wheel makes someone a lesser pilot, you shouldn't even be flying, let alone teaching others how to fly.
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Oh, MAKG is no CFI. He just does CAP stuff.
 
Hank S said:
People get airspace busts regularly because the GPS chip in their iPad isn't near as accurate as the one in my panel-mounted WAAS unit. Which would you trust to stay 1 nm outside of Bravo space? I skirt ATL's Bravo regularly, and have threaded my way (VFR) between hot R space with mine. Don't try that with an uncertified unit, Approach won't like it . . .
Click to expand...

These would be people who don't understand that the technology is not the end all definitive answer, and that it is merely an aid to your SA. I would not fly using just an iPad. I'd be a fool to bet my life on that alone. But by the same token, I'd be a fool not to use everything I have at my disposal, and to make sure that I have all of it available to me, on every flight, in proper working order, so that I can use the right tool for the right job at the right time.

Doesn't seem like rocket-science to me.
 
Time out fellas. Moving maps improve situational awareness "light years" over the crappy VOR/DME system I flew most of the time. An uncertified iPad moving map is as accurate as a certified moving map, but it lacks alerting and integrity that the certified systems have. That is immaterial, however, when the iPad is a supplemental system. There are no small number of commercial operators that have FAA approval for the iPad for many functions, but not the moving map. For Part 91 ops, the iPad moving map is awesome, and surely has saved some lives.

I do some consulting work with the Garmin G-5000 system, which is Part 25 certified. What an absolutely awesome system. SV and TAWS rolled into a beautiful PFD.
 
Why does anyone care what someone's personal minimums are? He's the pilot, and he can make the decision as he sees fit.

As I said earlier, I fly with a bunch of broken stuff at the airline. If it was pleasure flying there's no way I would fly with some of the inop items we go with.
 
Kritchlow said:
Why does anyone care what someone's personal minimums are? He's the pilot, and he can make the decision as he sees fit.

As I said earlier, I fly with a bunch of broken stuff at the airline. If it was pleasure flying there's no way I would fly with some of the inop items we go with.
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I presume you're the PIC. It's your call to accept the airplane with those "stickers." The minor ones we went with. If they were more significant and cumulative, we would refuse, and instead take a delay for repairs.

When that happened, the initial delay coding was charged against me, but flight ops management changed the code to charge maintenance.
 
aterpster said:
I presume you're the PIC. It's your call to accept the airplane with those "stickers." The minor ones we went with. If they were more significant and cumulative, we would refuse, and instead take a delay for repairs.

When that happened, the initial delay coding was charged against me, but flight ops management changed the code to charge maintenance.
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Lol!!! That works once in awhile. Refuse too many airplanes too often....
 
BrianNC said:
Back in the day when the long XC for the private was 300 miles, not 150, I actually did a couple of them due to one not being endorsed properly. Both probably ended up being more than 400 miles total. My first was from South Expressway airport in Jonesboro GA which doesn't exist any more, to Eufaula, Panama City, Albany and back. The second was from Macon to Augusta, Columbia SC, Athens GA, then back to Macon. All done with paper sectionals and pilotage as taught.

But after a several year layoff, just getting back into flying and will the iPads now available and all this software, I'm going paperless. Could I do the other? Sure. But the electronic is much more convenient and less cluttering. Everything at your fingertips. But I couldn't care less how somebody else decides to do it. If they'd never do it without a magenta line, what do I care? I don't really care whether mine is bigger than yours or not, which basically seems what many of these threads seem to devolve into.
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As an fng, my personal standard is two current electronic versions on two devices. Garmin pilot and flight plan go on iPad and iPhone. And, I have a sectional in the bag, though it might be a few months out of date at times, it's my "oh crap, a lot of other things failed, and I'm pretty deep into a chain that having this chart might help me break. Since the plane has a430w, I would fly sans one of my backups but not without some current backup, paper or electronic


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Hank S said:
Most of the time . . . .

With a good signal . . . Ever have a problem with that in the air? Not on my certified panel mount.
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I've had that problem in the air with a 480. Not because of any fault of the 480's of course; it was some idiot with a jammer.

And the important thing is, the 480, being WAAS, will warn you of the loss of integrity. The iPad won't.
 
"If you don't fly with a sextant and low enough in marginal conditions to see the clay pots and concrete arrows, you are not a real pilot. Sorry. That newfangled 4-course radio range thing is for fools who shouldn't be anywhere near an airplane. That's just the way it is."
-- POA post circa 1940
 
Back in my day when I flew with the Wright Brothers we didn't have any of these stupid instruments. You youngin's are way out of touch with real aviation and have no idea what it means to be a real pilot.
 
midlifeflyer said:
"If you don't fly with a sextant and low enough in marginal conditions to see the clay pots and concrete arrows, you are not a real pilot. Sorry. That newfangled 4-course radio range thing is for fools who shouldn't be anywhere near an airplane. That's just the way it is."
-- POA post circa 1940
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CC268 said:
Back in my day when I flew with the Wright Brothers we didn't have any of these stupid instruments. You youngin's are way out of touch with real aviation and have no idea what it means to be a real pilot.
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Bingo. That's how stupid some of the posts sound in this thread.
 
CC268 said:
Back in my day when I flew with the Wright Brothers we didn't have any of these stupid instruments. You youngin's are way out of touch with real aviation and have no idea what it means to be a real pilot.
Click to expand...
Back in my day we flew without airplanes. All we needed was a little peyote and a good sweat lodge. Some mescaline, mushrooms, and an adrenal glad would do in a pinchYou youngin's should learn the basics before ya move on to aircraft.
 
BrianNC said:
Bingo. That's how stupid some of the posts sound in this thread.
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And don't worry, there will be a circa 2040 post bemoaning how some brand new technological advance has made folks into dangerous pilots who can't even find there way with a good, reliable, old-fashioned GPS moving map.
 
midlifeflyer said:
And don't worry, there will be a circa 2040 post bemoaning how some brand new technological advance has made folks into dangerous pilots who can't even find there way with a good, reliable, old-fashioned GPS moving map.
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Yep.
 
midlifeflyer said:
And don't worry, there will be a circa 2040 post bemoaning how some brand new technological advance has made folks into dangerous pilots who can't even find there way with a good, reliable, old-fashioned GPS moving map.
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Lol this is so true
 
Somehow I find it hilarious that the person saying how moving map GPS's don't increase your SA and aren't that important is the one who got done for busting the SFO B...
 
Not to be constructive, or take this in a conversational direction, but. . .I use an iPad with an external (Dual) GPS receiver. My unsubstantiated presumption is this is probably preferable to relying on the iPad's internal GPS. Others that have tech knowledge on this, care to comment?

And yes, I have an IFR panel mount, and other than a local TAC, I usually don't have paper charts. I can tune and use VORs, but consider them backup navaids, and/or for the occasional non-precision appch.
 
mtuomi said:
Somehow I find it hilarious that the person saying how moving map GPS's don't increase your SA and aren't that important is the one who got done for busting the SFO B...
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Is that right?? That's rich.
 
mtuomi said:
Somehow I find it hilarious that the person saying how moving map GPS's don't increase your SA and aren't that important is the one who got done for busting the SFO B...
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Have you been waiting THREE MONTHS for a chance to make that point? :rofl:
 
Sundancer said:
Not to be constructive, or take this in a conversational direction, but. . .I use an iPad with an external (Dual) GPS receiver. My unsubstantiated presumption is this is probably preferable to relying on the iPad's internal GPS. Others that have tech knowledge on this, care to comment?
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No tech knowledge on the subject, but more than 6 years of reading posts from users suggests different people have had different experiences based on a combination of a multitude of factors from location in the cockpit to geographic location to direction of flight.

When I bought my first iPad, I decided to go the external route on the theory a GPS puck always up on the glareshield was less likely to lose a fix. In part, that was due to my experience losing the signal periodically with my handheld Garmin 396. Does it really make a difference? Beats me. So far I haven't lost a signal, but that could just be luck. I don't have any illusions that it's foolproof.
 
Sundancer said:
Not to be constructive, or take this in a conversational direction, but. . .I use an iPad with an external (Dual) GPS receiver. My unsubstantiated presumption is this is probably preferable to relying on the iPad's internal GPS. Others that have tech knowledge on this, care to comment?

And yes, I have an IFR panel mount, and other than a local TAC, I usually don't have paper charts. I can tune and use VORs, but consider them backup navaids, and/or for the occasional non-precision appch.
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Just caught this thread (and almost wish I didn't) but to answer your question:

It depends. :)

If the iPad has a reasonable signal strength and can see enough satellites, it's as accurate as any other non-WAAS GPS receiver.

I don't remember and don't feel like looking it up if the Dual has WAAS capability, but if so, it can be slightly more accurate than the non-WAAS iPad receiver.

Certified receivers add various techniques to verify the integrity of receiver itself and the signal received. Those also come in non-WAAS and WAAS enhanced versions.

Certified IFR receivers have those integrity checks as well as a supposedly more rigorous test process even, than then non-IFR models.

All of them have a menu somewhere that will tell you the current accuracy level.

The certified ones will tell you when the accuracy or integrity level falls below a needed level for different flight regimes. (Enroute, Approach, type of approach.)

Hopefully that's helpful.

Any GPS can be super accurate. Any WAAS GPS can be more accurate.

Any GPS receiver can also be a useless brick if it can't receive enough strong enough signals from multiple satellites. (Space weather, Terrestrial weather causing signal degeneration, unintentional interference, active jamming/interference, etc.)
 
I remember having the argument with my CFI. YES I understand Ipad's die. I do. But he would argue the same thing 'The ipad is not accurate' and you risk a bust.

Umm. the paper chart doesn't show you where you are whatsoever :) And with the stratus is 5 meters. Lastly you have this big ass map unfolded all over the damn cockpit - it's a nuisance :)
 
EminiTrader said:
I remember having the argument with my CFI. YES I understand Ipad's die. I do. But he would argue the same thing 'The ipad is not accurate' and you risk a bust.

Umm. the paper chart doesn't show you where you are whatsoever :) And with the stratus is 5 meters. Lastly you have this big ass map unfolded all over the damn cockpit - it's a nuisance :)
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What check ride was your CFI referring to?
 
I'm aware of RAIM, etc., for panel mounts; was just more interested in whether the Dual was really necessary, or if the iPad GPS receiver was sufficient. In a 172, my Dual goes up on the glare shield, with Bluetooth connectivity to FF/iPad - one reason I bought the Dual, vice Bad Elf - the Dual is out of the way, and can see the sky, more or less unobstructed. In about 8 years of use, I haven't seen any accuracy/position differences between my Dual/iPad/FF combo and the Garmin in the panel. I have lost a Garmin twice (two different models) - once on an ILS, once enroute. The Dual/iPad stayed up, but those were just anecdotal, isolated events. And maybe FF just THOUGHT it was up.

Anyway, my iPad is getting long in the tooth, and I'll replace it soon - curious if the consensus is the iPad GPS is sufficient - not to stir up a ruckus, and not much interested in feedback on the practice, but I mostly use FF/iPad as primary en route, with the panel mount as semi-backup - basically, changes go in FF first, then when established, I do the Garmin knob twisting. Understand YMMV - given that as background, are the GPS receivers in newer iPads solid? Understand it's just opinions and impressions - would like to hear.
 
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