IFR - questions

[2Airtime2]

I'm 50yo and getting a late start with this flying stuff. I'm in NC and plan to be a fair weather, fly for fun, pilot. If I'm flying vfr and lose outside sight I would just hold alt and heading while checking xm weather to see if I need to change course. I'm new so tell me what I'm missing here.

Why do I need an IFR rating? My 1st couple hrs my eyes spent 90% time on the instruments holding alt and heading. My cfi has broken that habit and now I'm 90% outside. Last lesson he put the blinders on me and I held alt. and wings level with no awareness issues.

What makes a pilot panic just because all of the sudden he's in fog? If you planned your flight and have a gps you know where you are. Obviously there is more to it than holding altitude and course. Why do pilots let a wing drop or spin into the ground? I'm kind of a statistics guy and I feel the odds of me hitting anything while in the air at 3000' or more is remote so if I can't see out it doesn't bother me. Keep updating your altimeter and keep flying til you get out of it.

If you need to land how difficult is it to find somewhere with at least a 500' ceiling? Are there tall towers within a few miles of small airports? If so keep altitude til over the field and keep dropping til you gain sight. The ground is not going to sneak up on you, you have an altimeter. Now if you get to 300'agl and still can't see the ground...well I have no answer for that.

What am I missing?


These questions stem from airplane shopping. I think I want ap but not sure I need ifr capabilities. I'm not sure I want to go through the time and expense of ifr training. I want to get my ticket and start having fun and building time. I'm keenly aware of my limitations in everything I do. If there is a remote possibility of losing sight and I don't feel I could handle it I would stay on the ground.



How many pp have been flying for decades and never got ifr certified? Even though you don't have the rating are you confident you could fly through a situation and land safely? Or do you avoid ifr conditions at all costs?

 

[Somedudeintn]

What about when your vacuum pump fails and you lose your attitude indicator and DG? I'm not instrument rated yet but have taken a few instrument lessons. I don't think it would be too bad in a calm low visibility situation with all the instruments working, but I think there are a lot of other things that can happen that screw you up.

Also flying in actual is a little more disorienting than putting on the glasses. When you look down and around and move your head you can really get confused. Always trust the instruments, unless they aren't right.

Edit: and if I get into that situation before I'm instrument rated, I'll declare an emergency and get ATC's help instead of trying to fly around in the soup to find VFR. That is if everything just clouds up and the 180* turn doesn't get me back VFR.

 

[RotorDude]

I'm 50yo and getting a late start with this flying stuff. I'm in NC and plan to be a fair weather, fly for fun, pilot. If I'm flying vfr and lose outside sight I would just hold alt and heading while checking xm weather to see if I need to change course. I'm new so tell me what I'm missing here.

Why do I need an IFR rating? My 1st couple hrs my eyes spent 90% time on the instruments holding alt and heading. My cfi has broken that habit and now I'm 90% outside. Last lesson he put the blinders on me and I held alt. and wings level with no awareness issues.

What makes a pilot panic just because all of the sudden he's in fog? If you planned your flight and have a gps you know where you are. Obviously there is more to it than holding altitude and course. Why do pilots let a wing drop or spin into the ground? I'm kind of a statistics guy and I feel the odds of me hitting anything while in the air at 3000' or more is remote so if I can't see out it doesn't bother me. Keep updating your altimeter and keep flying til you get out of it.

If you need to land how difficult is it to find somewhere with at least a 500' ceiling? Are there tall towers within a few miles of small airports? If so keep altitude til over the field and keep dropping til you gain sight. The ground is not going to sneak up on you, you have an altimeter. Now if you get to 300'agl and still can't see the ground...well I have no answer for that.

What am I missing?


These questions stem from airplane shopping. I think I want ap but not sure I need ifr capabilities. I'm not sure I want to go through the time and expense of ifr training.

If you are a "statistics guy" and you read the NTSB accident reports for VFR pilots flying VMC into IMC conditions, you'd see why what you say won't work in the real world, at least not reliably.
For flying around the patch, or in sunny Arizona or similar, you can remain a VFR pilot and stay reasonably safe. But if you want to fly cross countries and the weather is not severe clear every time, you'll need to be instrument rated and current (and your plane instrument capable) to be a "safe and effective" pilot (to borrow FDA language).
Any corners you cut will reduce your safety margins.

 

[2Airtime2]

What about when your vacuum pump fails and you lose your attitude indicator and DG?

That's why I'm asking. Do some planes have an alternate vacuum source? Seems like I've seen that listed in some ads.

As a vfr pilot I wouldn't purposely be flying into ifr conditions. So, if I somehow got into ifr AND I have instrument failure too, that's some bad luck. I will be checking my pitot heat during pre-flight inspection so I'm hoping to never lose those instruments due to ice. Again, if I get caught in ifr AND my pitot heat goes out that is some bad luck.

I've heard of the "comedy of errors" but my experience is only one thing goes wrong at a time.

 

[RotorDude]

That's why I'm asking. Do some planes have an alternate vacuum source? Seems like I've seen that listed in some ads.

As a vfr pilot I wouldn't purposely be flying into ifr conditions. So, if I somehow got into ifr AND I have instrument failure too, that's some bad luck. I will be checking my pitot heat during pre-flight inspection so I'm hoping to never lose those instruments due to ice. Again, if I get caught in ifr AND my pitot heat goes out that is some bad luck.

I've heard of the "comedy of errors" but my experience is only one thing goes wrong at a time.

You are right, statistically what will kill you as a VFR pilot flying into IMC is not equipment failure, unless you include what's between your ears. It's going to be a combination of "get-there-itis" with less than perfect weather, a cloud in the way, a turn to avoid terrain, a panicked screaming passenger, and soon you are in a spiral or spin, which are notoriously hard for a non-IFR pilot to overcome. Again, the NTSB accident reports are available, and there are lots of detailed published reports and videos in the various magazines, so all you need to do is read/watch, be honest with yourself, and think "there but for the grace of God go I".

 

[2Airtime2]

If you are a dangerous (non ifr pilot) who has been safely flying for decades feel free to pm me to avoid message board ridicule.


Safety is no joking matter. I'm trying to learn. Just adding some harmless humor.

Please keep the responses coming.

 

[jordane93]

You don't need an IFR rating. But it's definitely nice to have. You don't need to launch in 1/4 mile visibility and 200 foot ceilings but on marginal VFR days it can be useful to punch through that layer and still get your destination.

 

[midlifeflyer]

2Airtime,

There are plenty of pilots who fly only VFR for decades. Nothing wrong with it and, in certain parts of the country (not yours) flyable IMC is rare.

In your part of the country, you will not need an instrument rating if you (1) only fly on clear, low humidity days and (2) don't venture far enough for there to be significant weather changes. Due to the general climate here, temperature/dewpoint spreads tend to be close and conditions can change from clear to haze to clouds with only a small temperature change.

Tall towers near small airports? Have you looked at the Sectional for the Piedmont? I've rarely seen an area with as many as this one has. Draw a courseline between RDU and GSO and tell us what you see in terms of towers within 25 miles on either side of that route - just the ones above 500 AGL.

The panic? You seem to be comparing a pilot taking a lesson - who is in the process of being trained, knows any error can be rectified by simply taking off the hood, and, at worst, has a qualified pilot who has been preventing him from getting into trouble and can save the day if necessary - with a VFR pilot who has only the tools available for an emergency maneuver and probably hasn't practiced it in years and finds himself in a situation he generally got into because of a series of poor decisions.

I don't think that's a fair comparison, even without the added question about how you react under extreme stress (even without having made bad decisions to get you there) knowing your next action could kill you. The NTSB reports are replete with accidents involving very qualified pilots who panicked under that stress, never mind the average joe who hasn't put on the hood since his last flight review (if even then).

Want to hear what the panic sounds like? Listen to this one... ATC Saves VFR into IMC pilot. This one came out better than most.

 

[MAKG1]

Yes, some airplanes have backup vacuum pumps. But recognizing your AI is FOS is considerably more difficult than flying without one.

Keeping the blue side up is a bit more difficult than that due several illusions, and a much higher workload in an IFR environment. You need, in no uncertain terms, to experience a few of these to gain appropriate respect for them. Do it at night, under the hood, with an experienced instrument pilot or CFII. And you don't just hold heading and altitude. You have to do this while flying a procedure precisely, tuning radios and adjusting other nav sources, running checklists, and dealing with whatever else is going on.

And controlling the airplane is only half the battle. You also have to not bang into terrain, obstructions, or other airplanes. Including approaching an airport. Things get close there.

APs can fail, and will not get you out of an unusual attitude.

 

[Somedudeintn]

Just re read the OP. You don't need an instrument rating if you plan to fly for fun or even make trips when the weather is nice. Plenty of people fly across the country VFR. If you get to where you want to make more trips where there is some IMC, or find yourself flying in marginal weather then get it. Just don't think you'll be fine going into IMC as a VFR pilot or we may end up reading a NTSB report about you.

 

[Brad Z]

If you plan on flying to actually go places, you'll eventually see the necessity of an instrument rating. The vast majority of my IFR flights I spend very little time in the clouds. Being able to fly IFR allows to you punch through a layer, so rather than being grounded or scud running under a 2,500ft overcast, I'm at 8,000 in the sun, gliding over a sea of marshmallow.

The other issue is night. If you end up flying night regularly, you need good instrument skills (even if you don't get the instrument rating).

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you plan on flying to actually go places, you'll eventually see the necessity of an instrument rating. The vast majority of my IFR flights I spend very little time in the clouds. Being able to fly IFR allows to you punch through a layer, so rather than being grounded or scud running under a 2,500ft overcast, I'm at 8,000 in the sun, gliding over a sea of marshmallow.

The other issue is night. If you end up flying night regularly, you need good instrument skills (even if you don't get the instrument rating).

Kinda like this dismal, dark, cloudy, rainy day?

 

[rbridges]

I flew for 2 or 3 years before getting my IFR rating. The only problem I had was trying to plan weekend or longer trips. Friday could be great, but Sunday could be calling for overcast skies with clouds too low to fly VFR. So, I'd scrub the flight and drive. Nothing wrong with that, and that's what non-pilots do. lol

My flight cancellation rate has dropped substantially since getting the instrument ticket. It gives you a lot more flexibility, but even it has limitations.

On the other hand, I have a friend that's been flying 20 years. He's gone from coast to coast and north to south.

No right or wrong answer, just do what allows you to have fun. That's the important thing.

 

[2Airtime2]

NC, our mountains are 5000' max so I wouldn't be worried about slamming into one (plus I'd have to go west, no plans).

Mark - I listened to that, very intense. My question is what am I missing? The guy was flying just fine but then all of the sudden couldn't see anything. My question is what made him grab the yoke and do something severe enough to put the plane into a spin? I've only got 10 hrs and I already realize (once the plane is in level, trimmed flight) I only have to move the ailerons and elevator 1/4" (at the yoke) to maintain that. My question is, once you can't see anything outside, why keep looking out? Why not just look at your attitude indicator, altimeter, turn coordinator, etc.? The things you can see. It doesn't disorient me to focus on the instruments.

Once ifr rated, what instruments are you looking at that keeps you from panicking?

 

[Brad Z]

I'll add to the OP that if you're looking for a plane, even if you don't plan of flying IFR, you may want to consider a plane that is IFR equipped. 1) safety, 2) a platform to training for your instrument rating, and 3) resale. Unless it's a piper cub or similar, a buyer will expect an aircraft to be IFR ready. It doesn't have to be extravagant, but at least an approach certified GPS installed.

 

[FlyGirlKHWO]

Yes, some airplanes have backup vacuum pumps. But recognizing your AI is FOS is considerably more difficult than flying without one.

Keeping the blue side up is a bit more difficult than that due several illusions, and a much higher workload in an IFR environment. You need, in no uncertain terms, to experience a few of these to gain appropriate respect for them. Do it at night, under the hood, with an experienced instrument pilot or CFII. And you don't just hold heading and altitude. You have to do this while flying a procedure precisely, tuning radios and adjusting other nav sources, running checklists, and dealing with whatever else is going on.

And controlling the airplane is only half the battle. You also have to not bang into terrain, obstructions, or other airplanes. Including approaching an airport. Things get close there.

APs can fail, and will not get you out of an unusual attitude.

As a current IFR student (older than you, BTW) I can tell you that managing your avionics while staying on heading and altitude is no child's play. It's taken me a while to learn that I simply can't turn my eyes to the radio or GPS for more than a second or two and maintain headings accurately. This is where the instrument scan is critical.

I agree with the other posters that you're woefully underestimating the all the ways you can screw up in IMC.

 

[jordane93]

NC, our mountains are 5000' max so I wouldn't be worried about slamming into one (plus I'd have to go west, no plans).

Mark - I listened to that, very intense. My question is what am I missing? The guy was flying just fine but then all of the sudden couldn't see anything. My question is what made him grab the yoke and do something severe enough to put the plane into a spin? I've only got 10 hrs and I already realize (once the plane is in level, trimmed flight) I only have to move the ailerons and elevator 1/4" (at the yoke) to maintain that. My question is, once you can't see anything outside, why keep looking out? Why not just look at your attitude indicator, altimeter, turn coordinator, etc.? The things you can see. It doesn't disorient me to focus on the instruments.

Once ifr rated, what instruments are you looking at that keeps you from panicking?

It's easier said than done. Have you been inside a cloud? It really is night and day with the foggles versus actually in the soup. You don't know how you are going to react. Read up on spatial disorientation.

 

[rbridges]

and this may not affect the OP, but I definitely noticed disorientation the first time I went through clouds for an extended time; not just the small puffy guy you bust through in a second. For me, it's much different than having foggles. Maybe it's mental because you can always take them off and look outside. In a cloud or fog bank, there is no "undo" button. I remember my body telling me to bank one direction, and the attitude indicator telling me the opposite. It's a weird sensation.

Although not a necessity, I would highly recommend an autopilot if you decide to get an IFR bird. A backup vacuum would also be nice.

 

[2Airtime2]

As a current IFR student (older than you, BTW) I can tell you that managing your avionics while staying on heading and altitude is no child's play. It's taken me a while to learn that I simply can't turn my eyes to the radio or GPS for more than a second or two and maintain headings accurately. This is where the instrument scan is critical.

I agree with the other posters that you're woefully underestimating the all the ways you can screw up in IMC.

I believe you and the others...BUT I learn much better when someone tells me WHY vs. just saying believe me. How am I "woefully underestimating"? What instruments are you looking at that keep you oriented? What part of ifr training was the most difficult for you to transfer from disoriented vfr into oriented ifr? What part of ifr training keeps you from gyrating the yoke and putting the plane into a spin?

 

[Cooter]

If you plan on flying VFR, you don't need an IR. But any experience you can gain will help. It wouldn't hurt to take a few lessons just to become familiar with the concepts, or tag along at any opportunity to ride actual IMC with someone else. The more you know and experience, the safer you are generally. Just don't get the idea that because you've seen something once or twice it makes you an expert. There is always more to it than it initially seems.

My dad had 4500 hrs and never got an IR. I have never personally gone inadvertent IMC that I recall, so with the tools available today, you should never end up in a situation where you go actual IMC with no quick easy out.

Having said that, I did take off out of Pensacola or somewhere along the Gulf Coast one night, and got pretty serious vertigo that I want expecting. I was pointed out over the water climbing out and I mistook some boats for shoreline lights and it made me think I was in a steep, left turning descent. Without IMC experience, I felt like I probably would have crashed that night. It was VFR, and decent visibility but my IFR training made a big difference. So, take that for what it's worth.

 

[jordane93]

I believe you and the others...BUT I learn much better when someone tells me WHY vs. just saying believe me. How am I "woefully underestimating"? What instruments are you looking at that keep you oriented? What part of ifr training was the most difficult for you to transfer from disoriented vfr into oriented ifr? What part of ifr training keeps you from gyrating the yoke and putting the plane into a spin?

My suggestion would be to go up with a CFI in IMC. Some people have no problem adjusting, others don't.

 

[2Airtime2]

I remember my body telling me to bank one direction, and the attitude indicator telling me the opposite. It's a weird sensation.

.

So is this why people just say believe me? It can't be explained? You have to experience it.

So in ifr training you are with a cfi and at 1st you want to panic but you know he/she has your back so you muddle through? At some point it clicks and you gain confidence?

Are my thoughts here correct? I can buy that.


Ok, thanks guys, you have convinced me. My shopping will be for an ifr capable plane with ap and low time reliable engine.

Thanks for stomping on my wallet.


Seriously, thank you all. This is a great resource and I really appreciate everyone's help.


Stand by, I'm a low time (10 hr) trainee with an addiction. I will have more questions later.

 

[rbridges]

I believe you and the others...BUT I learn much better when someone tells me WHY vs. just saying believe me. How am I "woefully underestimating"? What instruments are you looking at that keep you oriented? What part of ifr training was the most difficult for you to transfer from disoriented vfr into oriented ifr? What part of ifr training keeps you from gyrating the yoke and putting the plane into a spin?

I think it goes to your initial statement. Hold your wings level and maintaining your heading is one thing. My CFII said to do that if I ever lost my bearing and needed to regain my composure.

During training for my IFR cross country, he made me use VORs and wouldn't let me use the autopilot. There are a lot of frequency changes, and you have to verify the nav signal to each VOR. There is a lot of radio work while trying to maintain a specific course, altitude and heading. The approach also gets to be a relatively fast paced moment in the cockpit.

I guess it boils down to specifics. An instrument flight plan has much lower tolerances. These are for aircraft separation and avoidance of CFIT. It's not the same as someone trying to decide if they need to turn back around into VFR conditions.

 

[Cooter]

I believe you and the others...BUT I learn much better when someone tells me WHY vs. just saying believe me. How am I "woefully underestimating"? What instruments are you looking at that keep you oriented? What part of ifr training was the most difficult for you to transfer from disoriented vfr into oriented ifr? What part of ifr training keeps you from gyrating the yoke and putting the plane into a spin?

I don't think you quite understand how hard it is to trust your instruments when your body is telling you something else. In 99.9999% of life you can trust what your body is telling you in regards to what is up and what is down. But in IMC, you can't trust it, and sometimes you have to work really hard to overcome it. If you are momentarily distracted you will likely adjust to correct for what your body is telling you, not what actually is, and that can be the first domino.

 

[MAKG1]

NC, our mountains are 5000' max so I wouldn't be worried about slamming into one (plus I'd have to go west, no plans).

How far AGL are your airports in NC?

How about your TV towers?

Where are other airplanes?

What's the point of flying if you're never going to go anywhere?

 

[Theboys]

I fly lots of long trips. When I was Vfr only I felt like you in that I didn't totally see the need to get my ifr. But moving up in planes it was kind of required by the insurance company. Really reduced my premium anyway. Now, I rarely fly anywhere not under a ifr flight plan. The training alone makes you a better all around pilot. I have found that when you are in IMC conditions without a autopilot it is much better to just let Go of the yoke if you are adjusting radios or doing anything other than watching your main avionics. If not when you look back you will usually be off course. I hate to wear the hood and have harder time flying with one for some reason. I think flying is kind of like getting older. When you start you know about everything and the longer you go the less you know. My two main travel planes have Aspen evolutions in the avionics so I don't have to do a big scan. When I did ifr training I had steam gauges and the more gauges the instructor failed the better I seemed to fly. Taught me to reduce my scan to fewer gauges. As someone allready mentioned, it's amazing how many times your body tells you are in a bank and gauges say your straight and level. Or vice versus. I actually like to fly under ifr flight plan. The controllers really help out. I normally fly in the low flight levels these days mostly. Class a, so ifr is required anyway.

 

[2Airtime2]

How far AGL are your airports in NC? 369'

How about your TV towers? 2500' max I believe

Where are other airplanes? various places but it's like aiming through the trees with your golf ball, there's more air than solid so chances are you'll make it through to the other side

What's the point of flying if you're never going to go anywhere?

to get nowhere quicker and not waiting in traffic and for the view




See my above post. You guys have convinced me to get a ifr capable plane.

I do plan on taking my wife to a fly in resort in the NC mountains. My thoughts were if I got into ifr conditions it would ease my mind if I was over 6000' (nothing to hit up there around here). I don't anticipate heading too far west. Is there anything good out there? :wink2:

 

[2Airtime2]

FYI - almost 200 views

I hear you guys that didn't respond. You're saying "stupid rookie".

 

[Velocity173]

What makes a pilot panic in fog? An overwhelming feeling of conflict between between your vestibular and your visual system.

http://youtu.be/EMxuO77mdQo

I've gotten leans on a few occasions. That's nothing. I've gotten completely disoriented once with coriolis illusion in a non auto pilot aircraft. That was frightening. Non instrument rated pilots simply look at it as "trusting your instruments." If it were only that simple, we'd never have any spatial disorientation accidents. In my case, I knew my instruments were correct. Problem is, I was so screwed up, I didn't understand what my instruments were telling me. I had to talk myself that blue up on the AI is a good thing. Unless you've been that disoriented while IMC, it's hard to understand. Later on as an instructor, I had on two separate occasions, pilots relinquishing the controls because they were disoriented. It happens, just hope the other person isn't disoriented when it does happen.

These days I don't stay current and I don't have a need to be anywhere at any particular time. I'd say 75 % of the time, in a SE piston aircraft, the weather that would require my IFR ticket, probably isn't weather (tstorms, fog, icing) I should be flying in any way. Also, don't have to worry about additional equipment requirements for IFR flight. Having said all that, having the ticket in my wallet gives me a little more confidence knowing that if I went IIMC, I could easily recover to a field safely. I think that alone is worth getting the rating.

 

[MAKG1]

umm, cruising at 6000 is great (though it really should be 7500 or 8500), but it's really hard to land at 2000+ AGL.

A few comments on your responses:

EVERY airport is at 0 AGL, except for a few historical lighter than air aircraft carriers.

2500 foot TV towers in a 500 foot overcast is a big problem. Sometimes these live on mountain tops, too.

Big sky doesn't work well at airports or nav aids, where everyone is aiming for the same space.

You seem to be presuming all flight is cruising straight and level.

 

[nj-pilot]

@2Airtime2 - After re-reading your original post again, I can't tell if you're saying:

1) Why should I bother getting IFR rated, if I'll only ever fly VMC,
OR
2) Why should I bother getting IFR rated, since it seems so easy to fly in IMC using only instruments

If your'e saying #1, then there's probably not a compelling reason to do so. It makes you a better pilot, if for no other reason than it forces you to have increased instruction time (which, statistically, reduces the likelihood of accident).

If you're saying #2, then you're taking your life (and potentially others') in your hands. This is not unlike saying "I'll just remove my wife's appendix to save medical cost - how hard can it be?" I'll assume this is not what you meant.

Either way, it sounds like you're very adept and comfortable in the cockpit. Keep it up!

 

[rbridges]

FYI - almost 200 views

I hear you guys that didn't respond. You're saying "stupid rookie".

at least you're asking the question. there are a lot of pilots who are no longer with us that didn't.

and for what it's worth, I've seen a lot of guys blow a fuse when they didn't get the answer they wanted. you seem to be taking it with an open mind.

 

[Palmpilot]

Having said that, I did take off out of Pensacola or somewhere along the Gulf Coast one night, and got pretty serious vertigo that I want expecting. I was pointed out over the water climbing out and I mistook some boats for shoreline lights and it made me think I was in a steep, left turning descent. Without IMC experience, I felt like I probably would have crashed that night. It was VFR, and decent visibility but my IFR training made a big difference. So, take that for what it's worth.

I had a similar experience on a night flight over the Arizona desert in good VFR conditions.

 

[Palmpilot]

The experience that got me to sign up for IFR training was flying to a destination about 50 miles away that I needed to be at by a particular time, and having unforecast low ceilings develop there. I would have had to fly an ILS to get in, and I had no idea how to do that, and no training or experience in doing so. I ended up turning back to my departure airport, and I had to drive REALLY fast to get there ten minutes late.

 

[GLMS_NC]

I'm 50yo and getting a late start with this flying stuff. I'm in NC and plan to be a fair weather, fly for fun, pilot. If I'm flying vfr and lose outside sight I would just hold alt and heading while checking xm weather to see if I need to change course. I'm new so tell me what I'm missing here.

Why do I need an IFR rating? My 1st couple hrs my eyes spent 90% time on the instruments holding alt and heading. My cfi has broken that habit and now I'm 90% outside. Last lesson he put the blinders on me and I held alt. and wings level with no awareness issues.

What makes a pilot panic just because all of the sudden he's in fog? If you planned your flight and have a gps you know where you are. Obviously there is more to it than holding altitude and course. Why do pilots let a wing drop or spin into the ground? I'm kind of a statistics guy and I feel the odds of me hitting anything while in the air at 3000' or more is remote so if I can't see out it doesn't bother me. Keep updating your altimeter and keep flying til you get out of it.

If you need to land how difficult is it to find somewhere with at least a 500' ceiling? Are there tall towers within a few miles of small airports? If so keep altitude til over the field and keep dropping til you gain sight. The ground is not going to sneak up on you, you have an altimeter. Now if you get to 300'agl and still can't see the ground...well I have no answer for that.

What am I missing?


These questions stem from airplane shopping. I think I want ap but not sure I need ifr capabilities. I'm not sure I want to go through the time and expense of ifr training. I want to get my ticket and start having fun and building time. I'm keenly aware of my limitations in everything I do. If there is a remote possibility of losing sight and I don't feel I could handle it I would stay on the ground.



How many pp have been flying for decades and never got ifr certified? Even though you don't have the rating are you confident you could fly through a situation and land safely? Or do you avoid ifr conditions at all costs?

1. It will improve your piloting skills. More precise flying.
2. Safety net when you fly, either with changing weather or heavy traffic.
3. You always fly in the system. ATC must take care of you. VFR is work permitting.
4. If you own a plane - cheaper insurance premiums than no rating.
5. When flying, you have better situational awareness as your trained with the instrument scan. You know how to verify all instruments to confirm your actions and position.
6. Much improved understanding of weather.
7. Fully understand charts for departures and approaches. Into unfamiliar areas, I will take an ILS over a visual any day of the week.

Several of us are in the Raleigh area and will be safety pilot and fly with about anyone who asks.

 

[coloradobluesky]

The problem with flying IMC in IFR is all that bad weather. Clouds tend to be accompanied by hail, lightening, turbulence (as in Thunderstorms) and ice (as in any cloud below 40 degrees, which is usally 50-55 on the surface). Winter cuts down your options. High headwinds can shorten your range signifigantly.

But not always. If you have flyable IFR, fine and there is more in some areas of the country than others.

Single pilot IFR is challenging, you have to do everything yourself. Navigate, keep the plane rightsideup and talk on the radio. Every IFR flight is a ATC (mis)communication adventure. ATC tells YOU where to fly. You roger that. There is a big expense keeping charts and databases and equipment current and your own personal currency up to date.

It can be fun and challenging to fly in the clouds and useful to get places when you cant go VFR. Personally I think IFR in IMC increases the stress level because you have to decide if its flyable IMC or not. And sometimes there is ice, T storms, too much turbulence and so forth. Single engine, single pilot IFR in a non-turbo is marginal equipment. If you really want to do it and do it all the time, you need turbo and pressurized and deiced. Turbine and twin would help even more. Helps to be a millionaire, make that a ten millionaire.

Contrary to what a lot of pilots who havent done it think, usually you strive to get on top of the bad weather and fly above it, only penetrating it when you have to. Its rare to fly along for hours in the clouds. At least that was my experience and its been verified by others. The airlines get above everything they can too.

In spite of all those obstacles, people do it. Just getting the IFR rating and doing it a bit will help your piloting skills. I'll never forget the first time I stuck my head in the clouds for real by myself. It is a thrill that you have to hold inside and keep cool with. That kind of satisfaction is memorable.

 

[rocketflyer84]

Not all IFR flying is the same. Most IFR PPL pilots I know don't do a lot of long "hard IFR" trips. Instead it's mostly a tool to get through a layer either on the way up or down. It's also a great way to become a more precise pilot.

 

[fiveoboy01]

As a current IFR student (older than you, BTW) I can tell you that managing your avionics while staying on heading and altitude is no child's play. It's taken me a while to learn that I simply can't turn my eyes to the radio or GPS for more than a second or two and maintain headings accurately. This is where the instrument scan is critical.

I agree with the other posters that you're woefully underestimating the all the ways you can screw up in IMC.

Good post. Agree with it all.

Also maybe it was already mentioned and I missed it, but regulations require you to stay a certain distance from clouds. Not only are you endangering yourself by entering IMC VFR, you're also endangering aircraft flying in IMC on an IFR flight plan. Cloud clearance requirements are meant to help keep separation between VFR and IFR traffic via the eyeball, as ATC is only reasonable for IFR traffic separation.

 

[James331]

If you are a "statistics guy" and you read the NTSB accident reports for VFR pilots flying VMC into IMC conditions, you'd see why what you say won't work in the real world, at least not reliably.
For flying around the patch, or in sunny Arizona or similar, you can remain a VFR pilot and stay reasonably safe. But if you want to fly cross countries and the weather is not severe clear every time, you'll need to be instrument rated and current (and your plane instrument capable) to be a "safe and effective" pilot (to borrow FDA language).
Any corners you cut will reduce your safety margins.

That.

 

[2Airtime2]

What makes a pilot panic in fog? An overwhelming feeling of conflict between between your vestibular and your visual system.

http://youtu.be/EMxuO77mdQo

I've gotten leans on a few occasions. That's nothing. I've gotten completely disoriented once with coriolis illusion in a non auto pilot aircraft. That was frightening. Non instrument rated pilots simply look at it as "trusting your instruments." If it were only that simple, we'd never have any spatial disorientation accidents. In my case, I knew my instruments were correct. Problem is, I was so screwed up, I didn't understand what my instruments were telling me. I had to talk myself that blue up on the AI is a good thing. Unless you've been that disoriented while IMC, it's hard to understand. Later on as an instructor, I had on two separate occasions, pilots relinquishing the controls because they were disoriented. It happens, just hope the other person isn't disoriented when it does happen.

These days I don't stay current and I don't have a need to be anywhere at any particular time. I'd say 75 % of the time, in a SE piston aircraft, the weather that would require my IFR ticket, probably isn't weather (tstorms, fog, icing) I should be flying in any way. Also, don't have to worry about additional equipment requirements for IFR flight. Having said all that, having the ticket in my wallet gives me a little more confidence knowing that if I went IIMC, I could easily recover to a field safely. I think that alone is worth getting the rating.

Very good post. Discrepancies between what you feel, coupled with not being able to see the horizon (real one, not artificial, it's still working just fine) must really mess people up. I look forward to the feeling so I'll know 1st hand.

@2Airtime2 - After re-reading your original post again, I can't tell if you're saying:

1) Why should I bother getting IFR rated, if I'll only ever fly VMC,
OR
2) Why should I bother getting IFR rated, since it seems so easy to fly in IMC using only instruments

If your'e saying #1, then there's probably not a compelling reason to do so. It makes you a better pilot, if for no other reason than it forces you to have increased instruction time (which, statistically, reduces the likelihood of accident).

If you're saying #2, then you're taking your life (and potentially others') in your hands. This is not unlike saying "I'll just remove my wife's appendix to save medical cost - how hard can it be?" I'll assume this is not what you meant.

Either way, it sounds like you're very adept and comfortable in the cockpit. Keep it up!

I'm hoping I'm a chip off the old block. My grandfather was a local legend who designed, built, crop dusted with, repaired, and raced his airplanes. He was an awesome aerobatic pilot. I think it's too late for me to get into all of that but I must have inherited some of his passion.

I was mainly trying to figure out if I need an ifr capable plane and the training to get certified. Also, what is the likelyhood of me being able to fly through to the other side or be able to drop down to where I can see. I don't plan to be in imc very often at all so I was wondering who (that's not ifr rated) has accidentally gone into it and was it easy to cope with.

I know ignorance is bliss but I just can't imagine myself gyrating the yoke wildly just because I can't see out the window if all the gauges still look normal.

Time will tell but for now my shopping will be for ifr capable planes.