IFR - questions

[MAKG1]

Basically, you're getting WAY ahead of your expertise. Flying seems real easy at first; heck I was turning the airplane to headings in my second lesson. Then, when you gain a little experience, you figure out it wasn't very good.

I also never had any problem under the hood for private pilot training. In instrument training, I experienced minor disorientation several times, and once became convinced I had my nose in the air when I was actually level, while missing an approach at 200 AGL. That may sound minor, but a little more could very easily have made a hole in the ground. Even the minor disorientation can grow, especially on a precision approach, so it has to be taken quite seriously.

There are some lessons that really have to be learned by experience. That's why we have instructors.

 

[oldShar]

Very good post. Discrepancies between what you feel, coupled with not being able to see the horizon (real one, not artificial, it's still working just fine) must really mess people up. I look forward to the feeling so I'll know 1st hand.

Don't hope too hard for experiencing "the feeling" -- especially veritgo and especially as a result of Coriolis acceleration ---- your prime feeling at that point will likely be, " I Hope to GOD that I have a Sic Sac available and that my belt is TIGHT. "

Ask CAMI or a local military facility for some quality time in a Barany Chair, if you would like to experience feelings

 

[fiveoboy01]

I don't plan to be in imc very often at all

You should plan on NEVER being in it without a rating or the appropriate instructor aboard.

so I was wondering who (that's not ifr rated) has accidentally gone into it and was it easy to cope with.

Plenty of NTSB reports that you can read up on to get that answer.

 

[2Airtime2]

Basically, you're getting WAY ahead of your expertise.

I don't have any expertise. It might sound like I'm pondering the merits of ifr training, that's not the goal of this thread. The goal was to determine how important it is to buy an ifr airplane. I'm a poor mechanical contractor, I don't have Texas oil money or the kind of money you California guys have (whatever y'all do out there to make $). Lots of lower priced, good, non ifr planes out there. Looks like I need to disregard those.

Lots of people buy planes while training. I want to buy my 1st and last plane. I've probably only got 20-25 more good yrs on this earth. I don't want anything complicated and 110-115 kts is plenty of speed for me.

You guys have helped me and I appreciate it. Most likely a 180hp Cherokee with a good engine, ifr capability, and some sort of ap...all for under $20k.



jk about that last part

 

[midlifeflyer]

NC, our mountains are 5000' max so I wouldn't be worried about slamming into one (plus I'd have to go west, no plans).

Mark - I listened to that, very intense. My question is what am I missing? The guy was flying just fine but then all of the sudden couldn't see anything. My question is what made him grab the yoke and do something severe enough to put the plane into a spin? I've only got 10 hrs and I already realize (once the plane is in level, trimmed flight) I only have to move the ailerons and elevator 1/4" (at the yoke) to maintain that. My question is, once you can't see anything outside, why keep looking out? Why not just look at your attitude indicator, altimeter, turn coordinator, etc.? The things you can see. It doesn't disorient me to focus on the instruments.

Once ifr rated, what instruments are you looking at that keeps you from panicking?

It's not as much what you are looking at as what you are trained for. Your private training under the hood is for emergencies only and most private pilots don't maintain that skill to the optimum level. In instrument training, you are trained to use the instruments for a significantly longer period as a normal way of flying and you practice the skill on a regular basis in the process of maintaining currency. It sounds like no big deal but it is like apples and oranges.

I've flown with private pilots who I have placed under the hood and within seconds lost control of the airplane.

 

[Twin_Flyer]

Good post. Agree with it all.

Also maybe it was already mentioned and I missed it, but regulations require you to stay a certain distance from clouds. Not only are you endangering yourself by entering IMC VFR, you're also endangering aircraft flying in IMC on an IFR flight plan. Cloud clearance requirements are meant to help keep separation between VFR and IFR traffic via the eyeball, as ATC is only reasonable for IFR traffic separation.

, It took 38 posts for someone to say that what the OP is suggesting is not legal... That being said I think he needs to get his PPL, fly a while then revisit his question after a year or two...

 

[LuisO]

I only read a couple of answers, but I will tell you this:

You have the psychological wherewithal to be an instrument pilot, so, nurture that thinking, finish your primary training and then start your instrument training right away. After that, you can (legally) enjoy flying in the clouds, and have the knowledge to do a bit more than straight and level.

 

[2Airtime2]

Here's my grandfather with a plane he designed and built:



Here he is just before a race:


He died when I was 10. Finally, after a lifetime, I'm in a position to pursue a passion that started with him 43 yrs ago.

 

[rbridges]

slow night. I looked up the N number to the biplane. It's still in operation it appears. Does your family still own it? It's registered to some people in NC.

 

[TK211X]

I'll pitch in with my own story, because I feel that it could help other students and people with questions like in this thread.

I always had the impression during my training that if you enter IMC you can always just simply hold heading and altitude or do a standard 180 out of the clouds as I never had a problem doing that with foggles during training. Two weeks after getting my PPL, I decided to make a flight to Orlando and back to Tampa. Now, coming back to the airport it was night, and I was ready to head back home with it seeming like clear weather and the pre-flight showing nothing to the contrary. I got into the plane and picked up flight following direct to Tampa. Everything went fine until all of a sudden I simply couldn't see any of the occasional ground lights here and there. I realized I flew into clouds. So I contact ATC and they tell me their radar doesn't show anything. They gave me a heading and an altitude they thought should get me out. During this time, while on the heading they gave me, I decided to check my foreflight and see whats happening on the radar. I glance back at the altimeter to see that i'm starting to exceed 200ft off my altitude and it's starting to decrease rather quickly; completely surprised to see my attitude indicator showing a turn to the left! I felt that it malfunctioned but decided to simply trust it. Eventually I got out of the clouds and had to divert because the weather completely flipped quickly on me.

That flight was a really good lesson for me I won't forget. Not to mention I felt very badly and embarrassed that it even took place.

When I didn't see the horizon and relied briefly on my senses, I couldn't feel that the plane started to turn ever so slowly. Flying by feel and senses that felt solid (Still believing I was level) made it worse while I didn't even suspect that anything was wrong. Everything felt right. Thats why my initial reaction was that my instruments are faulty. Knowing and taught to "trust" my instruments in this situation I simply did the complete opposite of what I felt & sensed was naturally right.

 

[2Airtime2]

slow night. I looked up the N number to the biplane. It's still in operation it appears. Does your family still own it? It's registered to some people in NC.

No, grandma sold it after he died. Crazy it stayed local all these yrs. 0-360 in that little plane, grandpa liked speed and power.

Manufacturer: LOWERS SPECIAL

Lowers was my grand parents last name.

 

[2Airtime2]

I'll pitch in with my own story, because I feel that it could help other students and people with questions like in this thread.

I always had the impression during my training that if you enter IMC you can always just simply hold heading and altitude or do a standard 180 out of the clouds as I never had a problem doing that with foggles during training. Two weeks after getting my PPL, I decided to make a flight to Orlando and back to Tampa. Now, coming back to the airport it was night, and I was ready to head back home with it seeming like clear weather and the pre-flight showing nothing to the contrary. I got into the plane and picked up flight following direct to Tampa. Everything went fine until all of a sudden I simply couldn't see any of the occasional ground lights here and there. I realized I flew into clouds. So I contact ATC and they tell me their radar doesn't show anything. They gave me a heading and an altitude they thought should get me out. During this time, while on the heading they gave me, I decided to check my foreflight and see whats happening on the radar. I glance back at the altimeter to see that i'm starting to exceed 200ft off my altitude and it's starting to decrease rather quickly; completely surprised to see my attitude indicator showing a turn to the left! I felt that it malfunctioned but decided to simply trust it. Eventually I got out of the clouds and had to divert because the weather completely flipped quickly on me.

That flight was a really good lesson for me I won't forget. Not to mention I felt very badly and embarrassed that it even took place.

When I didn't see the horizon and relied briefly on my senses, I couldn't feel that the plane started to turn ever so slowly. Flying by feel and senses that felt solid (Still believing I was level) made it worse while I didn't even suspect that anything was wrong. Everything felt right. Thats why my initial reaction was that my instruments are faulty. Knowing and taught to "trust" my instruments in this situation I simply did the complete opposite of what I felt & sensed was naturally right.

Wow!!

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Ghery]

Edit: and if I get into that situation before I'm instrument rated, I'll declare an emergency and get ATC's help instead of trying to fly around in the soup to find VFR. That is if everything just clouds up and the 180* turn doesn't get me back VFR.

I'm instrument rated and if flying VFR and I accidentally enter a cloud (think, flying at night when you can't see the clouds) it is an emergency and I'm declaring with ATC. Now.

Not all IFR flying is the same. Most IFR PPL pilots I know don't do a lot of long "hard IFR" trips. Instead it's mostly a tool to get through a layer either on the way up or down. It's also a great way to become a more precise pilot.

Bingo. Exactly why I got the IR a few years ago. We get a low overcast layer over KOLM and if you have the IR you can punch through and then have smooth sailing the rest of the way. Or if you don't have the IR, you can drive. Now, if I had to go all the way across the state in the clag, I'll drive. Too much like work flying on the gauges all the way, and I fly for fun. I'll second the comment on becoming a more precise pilot, as well. Getting the IR will definitely do that for you.

 

[JustinD]

I'm just gonna toss my two cents in here

ya keeping it straight and level if you are good is possible but figure this, its night time, suddenly you didn't see a haze layer or a cloud, boom you're in it. Now you need to talk to ATC, you reach down for a pen suddenly you're in a bank, but it doesn't feel like it, you're only 2000 feet off the ground, imagine how one simple thing can go so wrong not because of your inability but because of unavoidable circumstance.

No you do not an instrument rating, but that attitude towards it is what will get you into trouble, you'll just have to realize the type of day and they margins you are able to play with are significantly reduced. As many have said adding an IFR adds many more useable days, and not just for low IFR stuff, but a scattered layer at 1500 feet is pretty tough to guarantee a way above and to get below it, the IFR rating provides the training, and knowledge to handle that and use that time rather than be grounded.

Another thing I will add is i think getting an instrument rating adds so much to a pilots awareness and skill set that even if you have zero intentions on ever going up in actual it will make you a much safer and situationally aware pilot.

 

[paflyer]

Even though you don't have the rating are you confident you could fly through a situation and land safely? Or do you avoid ifr conditions at all costs?

Discretion is the better part of valor. Your flight planning should ensure that you don't get into a situation where you need to demonstrate skills you think you have.

Have your instructor file and get some actual IMC time.

 

[chemgeek]

Basically an IR takes all the stress out of VFR flight, especially in MVFR conditions. You do NOT want to be scud running in 1000-3 conditions. It's no fun and quite hazardous. Knowing you can file and ignore MVFR ceilings in benign weather is a warm fuzzy feeling of safety.

 

[rocketflyer84]

Basically an IR takes all the stress out of VFR flight, especially in MVFR conditions. You do NOT want to be scud running in 1000-3 conditions. It's no fun and quite hazardous. Knowing you can file and ignore MVFR ceilings in benign weather is a warm fuzzy feeling of safety.

This, and also many aspects of IFR filing are actually much easier. Radio coms for one. No trying to pick up flight following or getting dumped because the next controller "isn't taking the handoff." Flight planning is also usually very simple. Check out the routes people have gotten recently, quickly review that, file and done.

In busier airspace it's also waaaay easier for dealing with airspace. All those bravo shelves and such effectively disappear if you're on an IFR flight plan. You can focus on flying the airplane, not worrying if some controller is going to let you in or not. Also can just fly the route without playing slalom with the puffies on a nice day with fair weather clouds.

 

[Approach_controller]

Best way I can describe under the hood with a CFI and alone in actual is karate/boxing class vs a street fight with someone you've never met.

If you're sparing, at the end of the day you're going home in one piece. Street brawl, maybe not. Technically you're fighting either way, but when the stakes raise mistakes happen and fear creeps in.

On my ifr long cross country my CFII was half asleep on the ils nearly back home. My not knowing that I asked him to take the controls for 15 seconds so I could switch tanks due to a rough running engine I'd later learn needed carb heat at all times in IMC per an AD. That simple distraction and his lack of SA put us in a 130 degree bank at the marker in actual. Broke out over IHOP at BNA 600 OVC. I can still tell you pancakes were $3.99.

I learned several lessons. Not the least of which, I'll never rely on the POH and FBO for the whole story on a plane. The other was, IMC can and will kill you in seconds. You're at times so task saturated it hurts. I've watched two accomplished IFR rated pilots die that way due to the simplest of distractions.

 

[StinkBug]

I believe you and the others...BUT I learn much better when someone tells me WHY vs. just saying believe me. How am I "woefully underestimating"? What instruments are you looking at that keep you oriented? What part of ifr training was the most difficult for you to transfer from disoriented vfr into oriented ifr? What part of ifr training keeps you from gyrating the yoke and putting the plane into a spin?

The problem that you seem to be not understanding is that of illusions. It's amazing the tricks your body plays on you when you truly lose visual reference. Foggles are not a good simulator at all. When you're in the clouds with even just a few little bumps it totally throws off your bodies "center". You may think you're straight and level when really you're in a steep spiral, or just the opposite. The reason so many VFR pilots get into trouble is because they haven't trained how to reconcile the feelings they have with the instrument readings they are getting. I have a fair amount of time in the clouds, and feel comfortable flying IFR but even with that if I have to enter something into the gps I have to be careful that when I look back to the AI I'm not in a 30* bank. It's really easy to do. Maintaining straight and level seems really easy until you have to do it in turbulence while trying to figure out how to get out of the clouds.

You mentioned having GPS and weather, and I can guarantee you that if you took your eyes off the attitude indicator long enough to get the weather you'd find yourself in an unusual attitude in just a few seconds.

 

[DieHardFlyer]

I've only got 10 hrs and I already realize (once the plane is in level, trimmed flight) I only have to move the ailerons and elevator 1/4" (at the yoke) to maintain that. My question is, once you can't see anything outside, why keep looking out? Why not just look at your attitude indicator, altimeter, turn coordinator, etc.?

As others have said, if you remain a VFR-only pilot then studiously plan/fly to avoid IMC. Getting the IFR rating will enhance the utility of your flying experience, and make you legal and infinitely safer (both equally important). That said, an important aspect of IFR flying, and a point that at least partly answers your question, is the ability to separate ones “thinking” (reading/processing/implementing/multi-tasking information from instruments) from one’s “feelings” (emotions such as fear/stress/panic, as well as physical feelings that send messages of motion/direction to the brain). Instrument flying is mostly a mental game, and to be sure, the requisite skills can be developed through training and practice. But the truth is they come easier to some people than others. In addition, some people are naturally more composed in stressful situations, and such a temperament is more conducive to success in the IFR environment. You sound like a person that may already possess a good orientation and therefore might quickly get the hang of it. But you won’t really know until you experience more dynamic situations, such as high workload/stressful conditions.

The other point already made is that even if/when you do master these skills, they are very perishable. Safely handling inadvertent entry to IMC or planned IFR/IMC flight is rather straight forward when well practiced, but very dangerous if you haven’t done it in a while. Even the emergency IMC skills you learn during the PPL training, which seem so basic as to portend your question “how could anyone screw this up?”, quickly become rusty to the point of hazard without regular practice.

Go fly, have fun, and see where your interests/talents take you!

 

[Pghsteel]

I agree with the post above about the illusions. I thought the same as you at one point "wow this is no big deal". 1 year later training for the inst. first 10 flights all 500 over. What a eye opener. I really thought I didn't have what it takes. I'm thinking what you need is a little IFR time. Not foggles. I was very very humbled

 

[rocketflyer84]

Foggles don't even come close to simulating actual. It always amazes me one can get the IFR ticket without any real IFR flying in actual.

 

[Shawn]

Foggles don't even come close to simulating actual. It always amazes me one can get the IFR ticket without any real IFR flying in actual.

I agree...my first time in actual was "Holy Crap...this is nothing like foggles!" and glad I had my CFII in the right seat!

 

[tsts4]

I agree...my first time in actual was "Holy Crap...this is nothing like foggles!" and glad I had my CFII in the right seat!

Meh, I think they work just fine. If you're concentrating on your scan it shouldn't matter IMO. I found flying in actual actually easier than with foggles on for some reason. YMMV.....

For the OP I agree with what others have said. If you intend on traveling a lot, the rating will add significant utility to your flying. Case in point, I flew the family from Manassas VA to Ft Myers FL yesterday to spend New Years with my inlaws. That trip wouldn't have been possible VFR when we left as the weather was 3/4 in mist and 400 OVC.

 

[gasfiltered]

I'm glad to see you've decided to at least get an IFR-capable plane and consider training. You've mentioned several times about "wildly gyrating the yoke". This is not something that happens. The problem is much more insidious. When you get the leans, you only feel like it's a little turn at first, so you add some aileron, but it still feels like a little turn, so you add some more, and some more until you're in a steep spiral and your only hope is that you break out high enough and slow enough that you don't break the wings off trying to recover. As others have said there is no way to accurately describe how unbelievably powerful the feeling is.

As others here have mentioned, find a CFII and go up in some actual IMC. Have him give you fix you don't know how to spell and see what happens when you try to find it on a chart and then enter it into your gps.

I will also second the "less hassle" argument. I fly in the mid-atlantic covered in B, C, D, and various special use, SFRA, etc airspace. An IFR flight plan makes all that disappear; you tell 'em where you want to go, they tell you how to get there and who to talk to and they serve up the runway on a silver platter when you arrive. Easy.

 

[olasek]

Why do pilots let a wing drop or spin into the ground? I'm kind of a statistics guy

Read some NTSB reports, you will see that even NTSB doesn't answer this question why the pilot did this or that, they simply state that this is what he/she did. If they can't answer this question why do you think we will? There are excellent resources that take some typical accident scenario and peel off all the layers of human-machine interaction, human factors, poor planning, etc. Why did the pilot of PC-12 of June 2012 accident over Florida let the wing drop which quickly evolved into a death spiral - the NTSB report doesn't even offer any answer except saying the pilot was relatively inexperienced (800 hrs). Perfectly flyable aircraft, not a bad weather and family of six perished, case closed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Meh, I think they work just fine. If you're concentrating on your scan it shouldn't matter IMO. I found flying in actual actually easier than with foggles on for some reason.

Did you really have your very first experience in the clouds solo? If so, consider yourself a bit unique in not noticing any difference. But, I'd say for most, it is different enough physically and psychologically that is is an extremely good idea to have the first encounter with someone experienced in the other seat.

I found actual easier too. I had no problem at all with that actual missed approach off an ILS during my training - when I knew there was a highly qualified CFII in the right seat.

 

[tsts4]

Did you really have your very first experience in the clouds solo? If so, consider yourself a bit unique in not noticing any difference.
.

Huh? No and I didn't say that I did. My first few flights in the airplane were with foggles before we got some IMC to fly in. I did end up logging a little over 6 hrs actual before I took my check ride.

 

[MAKG1]

Did you really have your very first experience in the clouds solo? If so, consider yourself a bit unique in not noticing any difference. But, I'd say for most, it is different enough physically and psychologically that is is an extremely good idea to have the first encounter with someone experienced in the other seat.

I found actual easier too. I had no problem at all with that actual missed approach off an ILS during my training - when I knew there was a highly qualified CFII in the right seat.

To be fair, it really depends on the type of clouds.

My first encounter with marine layer was BEFORE any instrument instruction (but with a CFII in the right seat -- for CAP VFR transition practice). I followed the clearance pretty precisely with no training. It wasn't that hard -- basically, a turn to a heading below the ceiling, and then a climb through about 1000 feet of clouds in a straight line. I was nervous as hell but I held that heading and climb rate pretty well. Now, had I been asked to change departure frequency while still in the clouds, that would have given me some trouble at that time. Now, it's trivial. It's just like flying with foggles at night.

Even stratus rain clouds feel quite different, as they react much more to the terrain below, and can be much more turbulent at the top (still very light turbulence, but it's obviously more than marine layer). These aren't so much like foggles. I'd imagine unstable clouds would be a lot worse, but I try to avoid those.

My most recent flight was solo in stratus, and I have to agree the nerves are different when there is no right seater. However, it helps A LOT to verbalize your outs in case something goes south. In my case, I knew there was much lower terrain to my right, with ceilings nearly 3000 AGL and multiple airports in gliding distance in that direction. My out was a right turn and 500 FPM descent.

 

[Maverick]

Kinda like this dismal, dark, cloudy, rainy day?

Yup, I had a trip just like that one. I flew from Port Huron Michigan to Memphis Tennessee above a cloud deck that was solid overcast from the Michigan/Ohio border all the way to Memphis and as far as I could see beyond that. From the weather reports it was an 800 to 900 foot ceiling all the way down there with tops ranging from 3,000 to 3,500. I was in bright sunshine until it came time to make my approach into Memphis International.

It was a great flight with pretty much zero turbulence all the way. I was going to a Babes and Airplanes fly in and VFR pilots could not make that flight due to the low ceilings.

 

[petrolero]

I'm 50yo and getting a late start with this flying stuff. I'm in NC and plan to be a fair weather, fly for fun, pilot. If I'm flying vfr and lose outside sight I would just hold alt and heading while checking xm weather to see if I need to change course. I'm new so tell me what I'm missing here.

Why do I need an IFR rating? My 1st couple hrs my eyes spent 90% time on the instruments holding alt and heading. My cfi has broken that habit and now I'm 90% outside. Last lesson he put the blinders on me and I held alt. and wings level with no awareness issues.

What makes a pilot panic just because all of the sudden he's in fog? If you planned your flight and have a gps you know where you are. Obviously there is more to it than holding altitude and course. Why do pilots let a wing drop or spin into the ground? I'm kind of a statistics guy and I feel the odds of me hitting anything while in the air at 3000' or more is remote so if I can't see out it doesn't bother me. Keep updating your altimeter and keep flying til you get out of it.

If you need to land how difficult is it to find somewhere with at least a 500' ceiling? Are there tall towers within a few miles of small airports? If so keep altitude til over the field and keep dropping til you gain sight. The ground is not going to sneak up on you, you have an altimeter. Now if you get to 300'agl and still can't see the ground...well I have no answer for that.

What am I missing?


These questions stem from airplane shopping. I think I want ap but not sure I need ifr capabilities. I'm not sure I want to go through the time and expense of ifr training. I want to get my ticket and start having fun and building time. I'm keenly aware of my limitations in everything I do. If there is a remote possibility of losing sight and I don't feel I could handle it I would stay on the ground.



How many pp have been flying for decades and never got ifr certified? Even though you don't have the rating are you confident you could fly through a situation and land safely? Or do you avoid ifr conditions at all costs?

The NTSB database is littered with reports of pilots who thought similarly. Whatever it may seem, flying in IMC (rated or not) is easier said than done. Even instrument rated pilots manage to screw it up. That's why they teach you in primary training to do a 180 and get the heck out of it, ASAP, not continue and try to 'spiral down' or whatever other idea you're considering.

You're right that it isn't that hard to maintain altitude and trust your instruments (no, your AI and DG will not suddenly fail just because you busted a cloud). But that is a far cry from navigating, finding an approach, and flying it to a landing without running into metal or rocks in the clouds.

No you won't hit a tower at 3000' AGL but if you continue VFR into IMC and you think you're going to land, well, airports are on the ground so you'll be descending at some point. Instrument approach procedures are designed to get you to an airport while remaining well clear of hazards.

Not all pilots panic when they bust a cloud. Many pilots extricate themselves with no great fuss.

 

[Maverick]

That's why I'm asking. Do some planes have an alternate vacuum source? Seems like I've seen that listed in some ads.

As a vfr pilot I wouldn't purposely be flying into ifr conditions. So, if I somehow got into ifr AND I have instrument failure too, that's some bad luck. I will be checking my pitot heat during pre-flight inspection so I'm hoping to never lose those instruments due to ice. Again, if I get caught in ifr AND my pitot heat goes out that is some bad luck.

I've heard of the "comedy of errors" but my experience is only one thing goes wrong at a time.

Yes I have heard of airplanes having an alternate vacuum source but that might be more common on IFR equipped airplanes. Besides that, recognizing that you have lost your vacuum pump when you are in IMC conditions requires a good instrument scan knowing what to look for. It has happened to me and I recognized it when I saw that my attitude indicator and turn coordinator were not in agreement with each other. Turn coordinators are electric. It requires training and a good instrument scan!

There are also conditions that may be legally VFR but are not for a pilot without instrument training. I think JFK Jr. flew into such conditions when he crashed into the ocean off of Martha's Vineyard on a rather hazy night. I could show you daylight conditions over a large body of water where there is no discernible horizon due to haze.

When you are in IMC you have to trust your instruments and ignore what you are feeling. It is common in IMC conditions to feel like you are in a ban and turning when you are not. If you go to Oshkosh for the airshow stop in at the FAA booth and see if you can get into their spacial disorientation simulator, it will be an eye opener.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Huh? No and I didn't say that I did. My first few flights in the airplane were with foggles before we got some IMC to fly in. I did end up logging a little over 6 hrs actual before I took my check ride.

I didn't think so. But your dismissal that "If you're concentrating on your scan it [the difference between foggles and the real stuff] shouldn't matter IMO" suggested that you had the experience of being alone in actual the first time you entered it.

 

[MIFlyer]

If you are a "statistics guy" and you read the NTSB accident reports for VFR pilots flying VMC into IMC conditions, you'd see why what you say won't work in the real world, at least not reliably.
For flying around the patch, or in sunny Arizona or similar, you can remain a VFR pilot and stay reasonably safe. But if you want to fly cross countries and the weather is not severe clear every time, you'll need to be instrument rated and current (and your plane instrument capable) to be a "safe and effective" pilot (to borrow FDA language).
Any corners you cut will reduce your safety margins.

Yeah, I think the first words out of my mouth will be "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday" and request vectors while keeping the AI and turn coordinator real gentle as I work a 180 out of it.

That said, i still don't know how you "blunder" in to clouds if you are actually keeping the clearance from cloud described in the FAR

I would rather risk a 709 ride and a 60 day suspension than death for me and my passengers.

but i'm just an idiot student pilot

 

[Sac Arrow]

Several years ago, I've had a bad icing experience in IMC and without going through the whole deal that led up to it (I've posted about it before) I ended up in an unusual attitude in an attempt to "dive bomb" a decent to get through an icing layer as quickly as possible. That was a mistake. I recovered. It wasn't trivial, it was disorienting. Severely.

I am instrument rated, and at the time I was highly proficient in actual IMC conditions, having flown a lot of time in actual recently prior. It was hard enough dealing with the situation with recent training and experience. If I had not had the training and currency that I had at the time, I'm positive I would have been dead.

Being rated is important, but that isn't enough in itself. You also have to be current. Instrument flying is not like riding a bike. You lose the skills quickly if you don't use them. And if you never had them to begin with, you could end up in big trouble, quickly.

 

[MikeTuggle]

I see you are out of the Raleigh area -- I grew up there. You know that on some summer days you'll get serious haze and on trips you are likely to want to climb out of it to say 6,500' ...

Look at post #12 -- what a nice experience... flying in the clear. After climbing over the haze for a while, you may want to climb over scattered clouds... that may sometime become broken or even an "under"cast as you cruise along.

What to do then...? Call ATC and ask for vectors to get back downstairs. They'll help you but you better be sure you have some logged CFI- or CFII-aided hood time to help you do what you need to do.

"Been there; Done that; Got the T-shirt...."

 

[dell30rb]

I fly out of raleigh-exec, had my instrument rating around 4 years now.

If you take trips where you need to plan things out in advance and stick to a schedule, its a necessity. Actually getting the rating can be tedious and it does take some time, but once you have it, and some experience flying IFR is challenging and fun. Its a great way to get around the southeast.

 

[PPC1052]

This

but i'm just an idiot student pilot

May explain this

That said, i still don't know how you "blunder" in to clouds if you are actually keeping the clearance from cloud described in the FAR

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There are times when the visibility is such that it isn't clearly IMC or VMC. Also, conditions change. As temperatures drop, clouds can appear and close in on you. Don't be so quick to think that you can't blunder into clouds. After you have been around a while, you will see that sometimes things aren't so black and white.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Yeah, I think the first words out of my mouth will be "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday" and request vectors while keeping the AI and turn coordinator real gentle as I work a 180 out of it.

That said, i still don't know how you "blunder" in to clouds if you are actually keeping the clearance from cloud described in the FAR

I would rather risk a 709 ride and a 60 day suspension than death for me and my passengers.

but i'm just an idiot student pilot

Easy to blunder into clouds at night, I felt a lot more comfortable flying at night after IR training.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I see you are out of the Raleigh area -- I grew up there. You know that on some summer days you'll get serious haze and on trips you are likely to want to climb out of it to say 6,500' ...

Look at post #12 -- what a nice experience... flying in the clear. After climbing over the haze for a while, you may want to climb over scattered clouds... that may sometime become broken or even an "under"cast as you cruise along.

...which, coincidentally, is a photo taken shortly after we broke out into the clear after leaving Raleigh Exec (KTTA) on our way to Greenville, SC (KGMU).