Ifr pop up clearances...pros and cons

[FlyingMonkey]

hi all, I'm a newly instrument rated pilot and have some questions about pop up clearances.

I have made several trips recently where around my busy airspace home airport I have departed Vfr and obtained a pop up IFR clearance while enroute shortly after departure to a destination airport a couple hours away. My reasons for doing so were that getting an IFR clearance out of my home airport can take quite awhile. I did not want to make entire trip Vfr because the destination was a class B airport and from what I've read it is easier to get in without delay if on an IFR flight plan. On the return trip home I easily departed Vfr (sky clear) from that class B airport and while enroute got a clearance for my home airport as there was a cloud deck over the destination area.

I have a few questions regarding using the system in this manner:

1. Do I need to/ is it at all helpful to have filed an IFR flight plan even though you plan on departing Vfr and picking up clearance in the air. When I depart Vfr I generally fly the filed route anyway in case it might be helpful to the controller. In one instance of my example above I filed an IFR flight plan so it would be in the system.

2. Is there a chance while airborne enroute that you would just never get a clearance to go to a busier airport because you are picking it up in the air and not on the ground before departure?

3. Any other pros/cons of flying this way?

Thanks!

 

[MAKG1]

The one time I asked for a pop-up into the home airport, Approach told me it would be a 20 minute delay. Then, I found a BIG hole in the clouds, over the Valley, and canceled the request. It was night, so we couldn't see the hole from a distance, but it got obvious as we got closer. Lots of lights underneath it, so we could see there was lots of room.

I think this is a case where an IFR flight plan from a more distant point than the IAF might have helped.

 

[Velocity173]

It's helpful to the controller to have your flight plan in for a 2 hour flight because they won't have to type you in the NAS. It's already there so "cleared as filed." If you're local (pop up) it's not necessary because most likely they aren't typing you into the computer. They'll do a handwritten strip and clear you to your destination inside their airspace.

You could show up to your destination on a XC and have a substantial delay in picking up a pop up into that field. That's when you better have planned out your fuel reserves and given yourself a way out. You have no priority in that situation and they'll get rid of their IFRs that filed on the ground before getting back to you for a pop up.

All of this is situational depend. Could have one controller clear you immediately or another give you a delay. Should always be prepared to execute VFR if you didn't take the time to file IFR on the ground.

 

[flyingron]

Yes. At my field all instrument departures go the wrong way. PCT is pretty good once you're in the air of giving you direct to your next fix, but it works fine to file and depart VFR and pick it up while you're heading in the right direction.

Of course, I've been bopping along on FF and often if you want to go IFR at that point it's just a matter of the controller saying "cleared." Works better away from the NE megopolis. More often than not there I'm told to go file with Fss.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Just don't be stuck under a low layer flying around waiting for your popup. Have an out. You may not get one very quickly because they have no place to put you. There have been some accidents where pilots proceded into IMC without getting their popup with bad results.

 

[frfly172]

No problem picking up your clearance in the air ,if you have filed an IFR plan. If you ask for a pop up,and atc is busy,they may tell you to call fuss to file,or may tell you to remain VFR untill they can meet your request.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

I only employ this strategy if I have huge tolerances in cloud height etc.

And I am requesting IFR clearance over an hour ahead of time arriving at destination or an hour ahead of imc conditions. Good to know about filing the IFR flight plan anyway. I'll always do that.

 

[skidoo]

Last week, I filed on the ground, and made comments that I would start out VFR and pick up the clearance (about an hour later) when I reached another field on my route. When I got there, they couldn't find my flight plan, but got the clearance anyway. It was in a different sector from where I departed. I wonder if that is why, or if it was almost an hour after my filed departure.

So, I am wondering if in the same situation, if I could file the departure airport as the one where I want to pick up my clearance in the air rather than my actual departure airport.

 

[MAKG1]

Last week, I filed on the ground, and made comments that I would start out VFR and pick up the clearance (about an hour later) when I reached another field on my route. When I got there, they couldn't find my flight plan, but got the clearance anyway. It was in a different sector from where I departed. I wonder if that is why, or if it was almost an hour after my filed departure.

So, I am wondering if in the same situation, if I could file the departure airport as the one where I want to pick up my clearance in the air rather than my actual departure airport.

I don't understand the comments.

Just file starting from Field #2 with the estimated time of departure. Then, it's just a normal IFR flight plan. No one said you have to be physically present at that airport to file. They don't even need to know you'll be VFR before that. Maybe it confused them.

 

[luvflyin]

hi all, I'm a newly instrument rated pilot and have some questions about pop up clearances.

I have made several trips recently where around my busy airspace home airport I have departed Vfr and obtained a pop up IFR clearance while enroute shortly after departure to a destination airport a couple hours away. My reasons for doing so were that getting an IFR clearance out of my home airport can take quite awhile. I did not want to make entire trip Vfr because the destination was a class B airport and from what I've read it is easier to get in without delay if on an IFR flight plan. On the return trip home I easily departed Vfr (sky clear) from that class B airport and while enroute got a clearance for my home airport as there was a cloud deck over the destination area.

I have a few questions regarding using the system in this manner:

1. Do I need to/ is it at all helpful to have filed an IFR flight plan even though you plan on departing Vfr and picking up clearance in the air. When I depart Vfr I generally fly the filed route anyway in case it might be helpful to the controller. In one instance of my example above I filed an IFR flight plan so it would be in the system.

2. Is there a chance while airborne enroute that you would just never get a clearance to go to a busier airport because you are picking it up in the air and not on the ground before departure?

3. Any other pros/cons of flying this way?

Thanks!

1. No
2. Yes, but not likely if you really mean "never"
3. Just about everything you are going to read here.

If you've done it several times with no problem, that pretty much answers the question.
Where are you and where are the airports you are going to?

 

[luvflyin]

Last week, I filed on the ground, and made comments that I would start out VFR and pick up the clearance (about an hour later) when I reached another field on my route. When I got there, they couldn't find my flight plan, but got the clearance anyway. It was in a different sector from where I departed. I wonder if that is why, or if it was almost an hour after my filed departure.

So, I am wondering if in the same situation, if I could file the departure airport as the one where I want to pick up my clearance in the air rather than my actual departure airport.

That could be a good technique, using an airport you'll be over instead of a fix as the starting point on a flight plan where you intend to get the clearance somewhere enroute. Especially if it's an uncontrolled airport where the Center or Approach is use to giving the clearances instead of a Class B, C, or D airport where they are use to someone else (tower) issuing the clearances

 

[skidoo]

That could be a good technique, using an airport you'll be over instead of a fix as the starting point on a flight plan where you intend to get the clearance somewhere enroute. Especially if it's an uncontrolled airport where the Center or Approach is use to giving the clearances instead of a Class B, C, or D airport where they are use to someone else (tower) issuing the clearances

Great! I had always assumed the the filed departure airport had to be the one you departed from. This would often work better for me for when I can not expect a clearance soon after departure due to icing at the MEA's. So, next time, I think I will try it this way.

Another thought, if one filed IFR with a VFR initial route (i.e. a composite plan), and if you activate the VFR portion upon departure, then when you pick up your IFR clearance, do you need to specifically cancel the VFR portion, or would that be done automatically upon accepting the IFR clearance?

 

[mscard88]

Just don't be stuck under a low layer flying around waiting for your popup. Have an out. You may not get one very quickly because they have no place to put you. There have been some accidents where pilots proceded into IMC without getting their popup with bad results.

This! Nothing wrong with what you're doing. Sometimes controller workload may be cause for a slight delay. But don't get caught down low without an out, especially when there is terrain around. Wrote on another thread about the Bruno's grocery chain crash doing this and ran a BeechJet into a mountain after departing Rome Ga, trying to get a clearance, very hilly and mountainous there.

 

[MAKG1]

Great! I had always assumed the the filed departure airport had to be the one you departed from. This would often work better for me for when I can not expect a clearance soon after departure due to icing at the MEA's. So, next time, I think I will try it this way.

Another thought, if one filed IFR with a VFR initial route (i.e. a composite plan), and if you activate the VFR portion upon departure, then when you pick up your IFR clearance, do you need to specifically cancel the VFR portion, or would that be done automatically upon accepting the IFR clearance?

If what you really want to do is a hybrid VFR/IFR flight, you can begin and end it at any point you can express, not just an airport. I wouldn't suggest using an airport unless you're starting at the surface, or your clearance will be a bit weird and probably much more complex. For simplicity, I'd start it at a navaid or intersection on an airway, above the MEA.

VFR flight plans are never closed automatically. You must call FSS and do it, or you'll get someone looking for you.

 

[flyingron]

I've not found starting an "in-air" plan at an airport problematic provided you don't pick something like a class B/C primary. The "strip" goes to the same place. The trick is making sure that you know what ATC frequency handles that point. The fun one that caught even the FAA guys was that the boundaries are sometimes not obvious. DMW is right in the DC metroplex, but they are handled by ZNY. The guys who put together the training video on the DC ADIZ (now SFRA) got caught by that as they'd filed their plan to be picked up at DMW and of course Baltimore approach didn't have it.

This is the primary reason they established all those GATES and published frequencies in the revised SFRA procedures.

 

[Everskyward]

hi all, I'm a newly instrument rated pilot and have some questions about pop up clearances.

I have made several trips recently where around my busy airspace home airport I have departed Vfr and obtained a pop up IFR clearance while enroute shortly after departure to a destination airport a couple hours away. My reasons for doing so were that getting an IFR clearance out of my home airport can take quite awhile. I did not want to make entire trip Vfr because the destination was a class B airport and from what I've read it is easier to get in without delay if on an IFR flight plan. On the return trip home I easily departed Vfr (sky clear) from that class B airport and while enroute got a clearance for my home airport as there was a cloud deck over the destination area.

I have a few questions regarding using the system in this manner:

1. Do I need to/ is it at all helpful to have filed an IFR flight plan even though you plan on departing Vfr and picking up clearance in the air. When I depart Vfr I generally fly the filed route anyway in case it might be helpful to the controller. In one instance of my example above I filed an IFR flight plan so it would be in the system.

2. Is there a chance while airborne enroute that you would just never get a clearance to go to a busier airport because you are picking it up in the air and not on the ground before departure?

3. Any other pros/cons of flying this way?

Thanks!

There's no problem picking up an IFR clearance in the air even if you have used the airport you just took off from as your departure point. If you are going to be further down the road when you pick it up, you can use a nearby intersection or VOR. You don't need to be super accurate, it just needs to be in the vicinity.

 

[coloradobluesky]

If the ceilings are lower than 1000' (2000' in mountains) don't do popup or even try and pickup clearance in the air. Get it on the ground.

And of course, if there is a tower, always get it on the ground. Thats what the tower is FOR!

 

[Everskyward]

If the ceilings are lower than 1000' (2000' in mountains) don't do popup or even try and pickup clearance in the air. Get it on the ground.

Agree...

And of course, if there is a tower, always get it on the ground. Thats what the tower is FOR!

Not necessarily. There's no particular reason to get the IFR clearance on the ground, even at a towered airport. Of course this is assuming the weather is good enough. There are plenty of scenarios where the weather would be good at the departure airport and not so good enroute or at the destination. Or maybe the OP is trying to avoid delays at the departure airport.

 

[MAKG1]

If the ceilings are lower than 1000' (2000' in mountains) don't do popup or even try and pickup clearance in the air. Get it on the ground.

And of course, if there is a tower, always get it on the ground. Thats what the tower is FOR!

That's 2000 feet in designated mountainous areas, which is more than just in the mountains. There is a rough map in the AIM.

For instance, San Jose is considered mountainous, though you have a good 10 miles before anything is more than dead flat. If you launch northwest, it's more like 50 miles (but Class B will be an issue before you get there, and you generally can't get B clearance over the Bay due to SFO arrivals).

A clearance from the ground at my home airport almost always means at least 10 minutes delay due to San Jose arrivals. If the weather supports it (and it usually does), airborne clearances can really help. VFR separation is considerably less than IFR. You just have to remain out of Class C, or at least well off the extended centerlines, which isn't hard at all in good weather.

 

[mulligan]

I am at the end of my IFR training and a couple weeks away from check ride. After going through all of this I wonder why anyone IFR rated doesn't always file? I can see canceling at destination to save time on approach but why wouldn't you always want to file. Seems safer, atc watches out for you better, handles your descents for you and many other good things. The only down side I see is maybe adds a little time to your trip? Other than that, I can't think of any reason I would not file when flying. I guess the fact that I deal with mostly towered airports makes it seem too simple for me.


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[MAKG1]

Filing for short trips SUCKS. Flying IFR from KRHV to KPAO -- a 15 minute trip VFR if you dawdle -- takes up to 45 minutes IFR, requiring hold for release, climb up to 5000 and vectors all over the place. VFR, I'll transition at maybe 1500 or 2000 more or less direct, with no delays.

Approaches may be on the "wrong side" requiring long detours. Or ATC may try to route you around whole regions, especially if there is a STAR for your destination.

I'll also avoid filing if I intend to give the controls to a nonpilot, for obvious reasons. Or go sightseeing. But for going from one place to another that aren't too close together, sure, you might as well file.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

I am at the end of my IFR training and a couple weeks away from check ride. After going through all of this I wonder why anyone IFR rated doesn't always file? I can see canceling at destination to save time on approach but why wouldn't you always want to file. Seems safer, atc watches out for you better, handles your descents for you and many other good things. The only down side I see is maybe adds a little time to your trip? Other than that, I can't think of any reason I would not file when flying. I guess the fact that I deal with mostly towered airports makes it seem too simple for me.


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In my case I am based out of an airport that is in busy airspace near Burbank, Van Nuys, and LAX. So an IFR release is usually a 15-30 minute delay. When it's clear sky which it frequently is around here I think it's more efficient to depart Vfr and get out of the busy airspace Vfr before picking up the IFR clearance. If marginal Vfr or Ifr conditions exist I file IFR of course. But why wait for an IFR departure release when the sky is totally clear for a hundred miles in all directions and your trip is over two hours? That was the initial scenario of my Original post.

 

[mulligan]

In my case I am based out of an airport that is in busy airspace near Burbank, Van Nuys, and LAX. So an IFR release is usually a 15-30 minute delay. When it's clear sky which it frequently is around here I think it's more efficient to depart Vfr and get out of the busy airspace Vfr before picking up the IFR clearance. If marginal Vfr or Ifr conditions exist I file IFR of course. But why wait for an IFR departure release when the sky is totally clear for a hundred miles in all directions and your trip is over two hours? That was the initial scenario of my Original post.

Makes perfect sense. I'm spoiled as my class c home base is very low traffic and we never really have to wait for anything. I forget there are other people out there with busier locations

 

[MAKG1]

Makes perfect sense. I'm spoiled as my class c home base is very low traffic and we never really have to wait for anything. I forget there are other people out there with busier locations

Filing out of Class C is easier even if it's busy.

I can easily get out of Oakland with no delays and a trivial SID (Nimitz 3 -- essentially turn right heading 315 then radar vectors). It's the neighboring airports that get screwed.

It's even easier to get a clearance when there is a CD frequency, rather than getting Ground to do it between student taxi-backs.

 

[Shawn]

I am at the end of my IFR training and a couple weeks away from check ride. After going through all of this I wonder why anyone IFR rated doesn't always file? I can see canceling at destination to save time on approach but why wouldn't you always want to file.

All depends on you mission. My most two common missions are KWVI to KSAC...I can get there a LOT faster VFR going direct vs the IFR routing. Also when flying to SoCal...if I have passengers I like to fly lower and have the latitude to fly the route I want down the coast...If I am just looking to get there, I file IFR, climb up to the mid teens and get typically there faster on an IFR routing than VFR with the LAX Bravo in play.

Solo on a long XC, I like to file IFR for the reasons you pointed out.

My CFII who was a 10,000 hour pilot filed for EVERY flight he did.

I use pop up IFR all the time to punch though the marine layer at home...or I will file and pick up in the air as other have mentioned.

The one time I needed a pop up for a significant route segment was down in SoCal when the weather closed in quicker then forecast to remain VFR. Asked for a pop up and and they came back with a routing that took me out over Catalina Island at not a very high altitude...those that know where that is know that it is a significant open water flight over the ocean. Took a bit of negotiating with ATC back and forth to get a routing inland.

 

[jordane93]

Depends on the airspace. If you are in busy airspace, the controller may not like to give you your clearance in the air. I know this is mostly true in NY.

 

[weilke]

I understand a 'pop up' to be an IFR clearance that you request without having filed a flight plan. Usually local with an approach control to get through some low lying clouds.

If I file a flight plan from an intermediate location and pick it up in the air, it is not what I consider a 'pop up'. E.g. going out of TEB back to DC, I have filed fom Coyle (CYN) VOR or the DIXIE intersection and depart TEB VFR. McGuire approach controls that airspace around CYN and DIXIE below 8k. They always seem to have time to take me into the IFR system at that point.

 

[Shawn]

If I file a flight plan from an intermediate location and pick it up in the air, it is not what I consider a 'pop up'. .

Exactly...picking up a clearance enroute is different from a pop up clearance...but both have their potential negatives which every pilot should fully understand so they do not get caught off guard in a bad situation when dealing with IMC.

 

[weilke]

I am at the end of my IFR training and a couple weeks away from check ride. After going through all of this I wonder why anyone IFR rated doesn't always file?

Sometimes its fun just to fly along VFR without having to listen for your callsign and without having to pay close attention to your altitude. Just look out the window and enjoy the trip.

 

[flyingron]

...Lets you fly lower, too. At times, I want to be below the minimum instrument altitudes and frankly, usually you can't get below the MVA around here even if the MIA is lower. I routinely get climbed to 7000' going from HKY to CJR on V-222 even though the MEA is 5000 because ROA has crappy radar coverage that area.

 

[azure]

Yep, many times the minimum altitude you can be assigned is higher than you want to fly, for whatever reason. Around here you will never get below 6000 for an initial altitude, and even on approach you will have radar services terminated below 5400. The reason is simply that radar coverage is non-existent below 5400, although you can talk to ATC from the ground. In some areas you have to be even higher than that to be seen. (This is VT, and it's generally true throughout northern New England and many parts of upstate NY.)

That said, I almost never willingly go VFR after dark around here. I like the added safety benefit of another set of eyes watching out for me.

 

[bobmrg]

I understand a 'pop up' to be an IFR clearance that you request without having filed a flight plan. Usually local with an approach control to get through some low lying clouds.

If I file a flight plan from an intermediate location and pick it up in the air, it is not what I consider a 'pop up'. E.g. going out of TEB back to DC, I have filed fom Coyle (CYN) VOR or the DIXIE intersection and depart TEB VFR. McGuire approach controls that airspace around CYN and DIXIE below 8k. They always seem to have time to take me into the IFR system at that point.

I don't recall ever popping up with anyone other than Center, and I did that dozens of times.

Bob Gardner

 

[flyingron]

In the NE you''re pretty much in the land of overlapping approach controls if you're below 12,000'.

I've popped up fine with approach. In fact, if you're already getting FF, it's often just a matter of them changing your altitude.

 

[MAKG1]

I don't recall ever popping up with anyone other than Center, and I did that dozens of times.

Bob Gardner

You'll do it with Approach if you fly around California much. Just, quite a lot of airspace below 10,000 is Approach's now. Most of my local flights never talk to Center.

Those few times I've flown around Washington, it seems Seattle Center does almost all of it.

 

[neilw2]

Depends on the airspace. If you are in busy airspace, the controller may not like to give you your clearance in the air. I know this is mostly true in NY.

I have heard they don't like it, but what do they do if I have filed a flight plan and try to pick it up over my intended fix.....tell you there is a delay? say unavailable? Berate me over my lack of manners ...I've never tried it around NY so just curious

I don't recall ever popping up with anyone other than Center, and I did that dozens of times.

Bob Gardner

I fly from BOS to NJ oftne without ever talking to a Center. Like others have said in the Northeast it is the land of overlapping approach controls

 

[azure]

I fly from BOS to NJ oftne without ever talking to a Center. Like others have said in the Northeast it is the land of overlapping approach controls

Depends on how far into the Northeast you go. This is just not true in northern New England well away from the coastal megalopolis. By the middle of NH (roughly, north of Concord) you're talking to ZBW. Also in most of rural Maine (haven't been up Bangor way though, might be different). In VT, the only approach control I know of is Burlington and if you fly even to a fairly nearby airport like MPV, they turn you back over to Center. (Probably you talk to Albany around Bennington, but that's a NY TRACON not VT.) Around here approach controls are few and far between, and definitely don't overlap.

 

[jordane93]

I have heard they don't like it, but what do they do if I have filed a flight plan and try to pick it up over my intended fix.....tell you there is a delay? say unavailable? Berate me over my lack of manners ...I've never tried it around NY so just curious

They'll probably just let out a big sigh and tell you to standby for your clearance. I don't have any experience with picking it up over a specific fix but I guess it all depends what time you try to pick it up. If you're picking it up right in the middle of rush hour I'm sure the aren't going to like it.

 

[John Collins]

I am not a fan of filing a route that starts at a fix or VOR for the purposes of an enroute IFR pickup. I prefer to file from an airport and depart VFR when the weather is CAVU. You have a greater chance of ATC not being able to locate your flightplan using the route beginning at a VOR/Waypoint. Flightplans are routed to centers and they may have letters of agreements that reroutes them to approach control, but the agreement may only include departures from airports. I have worked several cases where the pilot files and then the departure control can't locate their flightplan. This is especially an issue around the center borders. When I contact ATC after a VFR departure, I request the clearance on file from XYZ to ABC. If you decide while you are enroute you want to switch to IFR, usually Center can accommodate you. If not, you can file with a FSS and then request the pickup.

 

[MAKG1]

I am not a fan of filing a route that starts at a fix or VOR for the purposes of an enroute IFR pickup. I prefer to file from an airport and depart VFR when the weather is CAVU. You have a greater chance of ATC not being able to locate your flightplan using the route beginning at a VOR/Waypoint. Flightplans are routed to centers and they may have letters of agreements that reroutes them to approach control, but the agreement may only include departures from airports. I have worked several cases where the pilot files and then the departure control can't locate their flightplan. This is especially an issue around the center borders. When I contact ATC after a VFR departure, I request the clearance on file from XYZ to ABC. If you decide while you are enroute you want to switch to IFR, usually Center can accommodate you. If not, you can file with a FSS and then request the pickup.

John, if you don't mind, could you explain how that works?

Suppose I wanted to fly from Reid to Sacramento and filed KRHV SUNOL V334 SAC KSMF, with a remark REQ ILS 34L, and altitude 5000. Weather is nice locally but OVC008 with tops 2000 right over the destination field, so I want to fly visual all the way to SAC VOR and fly the approach. How do I do that?

I would have just filed SAC KSMF and tried to pick it up somewhere along V334.

 

[Velocity173]

If your departure airport lies within the facility's airspace, it will automatically pop up in their printer 30 mins prior to ETD. So departing VFR and picking up your IFR will be no problem. Might take a bit depending on how busy the controller is, but if WX is good, shouldn't be a problem.

Having an IFR flight plan on file and trying to pick it up at your destination will be useless. First, even if hadn't timed out yet (2 hrs after ETD), the controller won't have an inbound on you because it was never activated. Second, they can't activate it on their end (departure message/ amendment) because the computer is still showing the aircraft on the ground at the departure field. None of that really matters though because the controller can do a local IFR pop up, handwritten strip in a matter of seconds. As stated several times earlier, based on controller work load, that could take some time. I've gotten the dreaded "not taking pop up IFRs right now" before on several occasions.