IFR Plan under VMC
- Thread starter Tzanev
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MauleSkinner
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Yes.
No.
No.
So, in order to get credit for my IFR recency, I have to fly in IMC, correct?
crash7
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coma24
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Think about it. How would it possibly work otherwise?
In terms of logging the approaches for legal currency, they need to be shot in IMC, or in simulated IMC (foggles with safety pilot), or you can use a suitable flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device in IMC. For approaches shot in IMC, legal opinion has stated that you need to be in IMC while crossing the FAF, but not all the way down to DA/MDA. If you do it in simulated IMC, then you need to remain in those conditions down to DA/MDA to log it for currency.
Yes. (and you don't need the IFR flight plan, just call approach and ask for the approach)
There's no requirement to be on an IFR plan (or clearance) to achieve currency. You just need to perform the tasks listed in the reg under actual or simulated instrument conditions.
If you are not current you can not be PIC operating IFR (which means accepting an IFR clearance (regardless of conditions), or operating in less than VMC).
If you are not current you can not be PIC operating IFR (which means accepting an IFR clearance (regardless of conditions), or operating in less than VMC).
coma24
Line Up and Wait
Tzanev, literally said above....
I'd recommend spending some time reading through Part 61 and 91. This is fundamental stuff if you hold an instrument rating.
I'd recommend spending some time reading through Part 61 and 91. This is fundamental stuff if you hold an instrument rating.
Thanks. I guess, I have to explain:
I acquired my IR ASEL last mounth (Sep). I am very confortable flying the P28A and C172 under the hood, but throuout my IFR trainning I gained only 4 hours in real IMC. Even the CFIIs were reluctant to fly real IMC, even though I asked several times(Go figure!!!). So, what is the best way for a new IFR pilot to gain experience? Should I hit the clouds (IMC) right away? Can you guys share your expeience becoming a skillful IFR pilot?
I acquired my IR ASEL last mounth (Sep). I am very confortable flying the P28A and C172 under the hood, but throuout my IFR trainning I gained only 4 hours in real IMC. Even the CFIIs were reluctant to fly real IMC, even though I asked several times(Go figure!!!). So, what is the best way for a new IFR pilot to gain experience? Should I hit the clouds (IMC) right away? Can you guys share your expeience becoming a skillful IFR pilot?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Did 3.5 hours in the clouds while /U on a 5.3 hour flight less than a week after passing the check ride. Pass check ride, buy plane. Fly it home from NC!
Yes/no/maybe. This is coming from a guy who got his instrument last May. I did my training in the winter with freezing temps below pattern altitude most of the time so minimal actual IFR. You didn't say where you were located.
Go out and fly some approaches VFR that you haven't done before. Call up approach and ask for the approach and execute it. Don't put on the foggles just fly it in and out and build those skills you used to get the rating.
Next, pick a VFR day with a good layer of the 2000-4000 AGL flavor. File IFR, go someplace above the layer and then shoot the approach break out at 2K, smile, go missed, go hold, shoot it again, land, go to breakfast satisfied. Next same thing with a lower layer. Maybe 1000' and repeat. spend some time IFR. Do this 2-3 times then step it up to real IFR longer events.
This last weekend was the first time I really flew a flight that I needed the IFR for. 3 hours back from Kentucky to Maryland, IMC for 1/2 of it and using ADSB weather to deviate as needed followed by an RNAV at home where I broke out well above mins. Legally and by training I could have done this the day after my check ride but reality was the way I have stepped into something like this made me a whole lot more comfortable and safer. Looking forward to doing it again. Very satisfying.
Just my 2 cents
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
Find better CFIIs. A CFII that won’t fly with a student in flyable IMC is doing their students a disservice. Barring that find another IFR pilot to fly with until you’re comfortable. Or if you keep your personal minimums high maybe go up on a day where you can get some Enroute experience but with visual approaches. Another option is using a sim. I have Redbird TD that is expensive but legal for logging 61.57 requirements.
farmrjohn
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As mentioned above, use the IFR procedures on all of your flight to keep fresh with what is required. If most of your flights are local/in the pattern that would be multiple approaches or out and backs for the enroute portion. Either file an IFR flight plan, or simulate clearances to different fixes. Don't get lured into keeping your eyes inside if you're flying VFR with no safety pilot or observer while practicing your procedures and techniques. Take advantage of favorable, friendly clouds to get an IFR clearance to practice. If you don't have to think what you need to do it's easier to do it for real when you need to (says the pilot who let his currency lapse and doesn't have an appropriate plane to get recurrent).
Rgbeard
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Do you have a friend that's a qualified IFR pilot?
If I was unsure about punching clouds, I'd wait for some weather, get a qualified person in RHS, and go have some fun.
If I was unsure about punching clouds, I'd wait for some weather, get a qualified person in RHS, and go have some fun.
coma24
Line Up and Wait
Tzanev,
Imc experience aside, what is your level of confidence in filing a flight plan, picking up a clearance and flying the route under IFR rules in VMC?
I'm trying to work out if IMC is your only concern.
Imc experience aside, what is your level of confidence in filing a flight plan, picking up a clearance and flying the route under IFR rules in VMC?
I'm trying to work out if IMC is your only concern.
Based on the questions about basic IFR currency, I'm guessing not.
it's a shame, but Tzanev, based on your questions, I would try to find a good CFII to try to fill in some of the gaps.
No problems what so ever filing, picking up clearance, flying x-country flights with ATC vectoring in predominantly VMC. The low clouds make me iffy.
Rgbeard
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Where are you located?
benyflyguy
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It’s unfortunate your CFII was not comfortable going up and flying IMC in your plane. What does your panel look like equipment wise?? Some CFII are like that o hear. Fortunately my CFII would call me in at night and tell me “it looks crappy tomorrow so let’s go”. Kept saying all the IMC we did would save my life one say. Glad he did.
Find another CFII or a good IFR current safety pilot and get disoriented.
Find another CFII or a good IFR current safety pilot and get disoriented.
chemgeek
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Fly in the system solo IFR in VMC. Make IFR climbs and descents through clouds while XC. If that goes well, and you were proficiently trained, do some solo practice approaches IFR on a benign day, say 2000 OVC or 1000 SCT. Then take a trip IMC in benign IMC conditions. Use it or lose it! You were trained to use the rating, so do so. You may find actual IMC easier than simulated, but there is no peeking in actual, just instruments.
I like Chemgeeks philosophy. I almost always file IFR even if it's a clear day. You need two things:
1. Learn when it's not a good idea to fly IFR period (thunderstorms, icing, etc...).
2. Learn what your limitations are.
My instructor suggested that until get some additional actual approaches under my belt that I plan into conditions that are worse than those requiring an alternate. Getting close to the ground is really where the experience you have in the soup is most needed.
1. Learn when it's not a good idea to fly IFR period (thunderstorms, icing, etc...).
2. Learn what your limitations are.
My instructor suggested that until get some additional actual approaches under my belt that I plan into conditions that are worse than those requiring an alternate. Getting close to the ground is really where the experience you have in the soup is most needed.
chemgeek
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As an addendum, remember you were (supposedly) trained to fly to minimums and cope with single pilot IFR. You never know when you will need to exercise those skills, so use them often and learn. On my very first trip after getting the IR, on a really nice fall flying day in the NE, I was faced with a sudden unforecast marine layer that required flying an ILS and safely stretching my fuel a bit to reach my destination. it was no problem flying like I was trained, and I found that ATC is really helpful when the weather goes to pot like that. That trip gave me a lot of confidence flying in the system and help me realize I had good instruction. Too many pilots are afraid to exercise their IR privileges, and that just makes you rusty and erodes confidence.
While it is possible you can fly in the clag for miles and miles (not particularly fun, but doable) the reality is that most "IMC" trips can get above a low cloud deck or between layers, where you can better visualize weather and the ride is better. And THAT is nice IFR.
While it is possible you can fly in the clag for miles and miles (not particularly fun, but doable) the reality is that most "IMC" trips can get above a low cloud deck or between layers, where you can better visualize weather and the ride is better. And THAT is nice IFR.
luvflyin
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lancie00
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I just got my IFR a couple of months ago. I've flown a few trips since then and file IFR all the time. On a couple of the trips I had the opportunity to get some actual IMC. Mostly just punching through small clouds. On one trip I went to punch through a cloud and it turned out to be much bigger than I thought. I ended up IMC for about 15 minutes. Once I popped out the other side, I realized this IMC thing isn't a big deal. I gained a lot of experience in that 15 minutes and realized that yes, I can fly in the clouds. When you go practice, don't start on a day that's 200 and a half mile, just go out and get some real IMC. You'll gain confidence and experience so you can go lower next time. If you're not comfortable, get a new CFI and go play in the soup.
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
Happens in Florida all the time. We have VERY few days that you can get currency refreshed, so simulated is the way to go. It's either thunderstorms or CAVU, or sunny and scattered.
You get a couple opportunities a year and by the time they roll around you are likely out of currency. So yeah, safety pilot or just go rent a simulator for an hour or so for a LOT less cash then an aircraft and get current again.
I've had to do an IPC the last two times because my currency ran out before I could get a plane and get out there in IMC to refresh currency. I don't like hood work for currency because it's not realistic enough. I either do it in actual IMC or a sim, or if I'm really desperate I'll just let it lapse and do an IPC which does help sometimes dust off the rust and go through procedures.
You get a couple opportunities a year and by the time they roll around you are likely out of currency. So yeah, safety pilot or just go rent a simulator for an hour or so for a LOT less cash then an aircraft and get current again.
I've had to do an IPC the last two times because my currency ran out before I could get a plane and get out there in IMC to refresh currency. I don't like hood work for currency because it's not realistic enough. I either do it in actual IMC or a sim, or if I'm really desperate I'll just let it lapse and do an IPC which does help sometimes dust off the rust and go through procedures.
the other guys are correct. But still file IFR in VMC and fly the approaches. It's good practice with not much risk. In fact, it may be slightly more difficult since your scan include peeks out of the window on the approach. In actual and simulated you be ready to rock. Remember, the jet jocks may have little actual "IMC". They always fly IFR and blast through layers into VMC. Master the mechanics of it and you'll be A OK.
That realization should be the goal for any new instrument pilot. It takes some pilots longer than others to get comfortable with IMC.
To the OP: If you don't know whether you are ready for the real IMC deal, fly a few cross countries with an instructor who is comfortable flying in the clouds. You won't get more comfortable flying in the clouds unless you actually fly in the clouds, and until you are comfortable to do that yourself, a good CFII is the solution to this catch-22.
Best of luck!
- Martin
Other than the "you can't rip off the foggles and be out of it" fear, actual IMC is often easier than simulated. Less distractions.
I found the same. The larger view around the cockpit and it seems much more relaxing.
Pick a day with a layer at a reasonable altitude, file an IFR in that layer, and fly it. The layer does not need to be solid, going in and out can be more stress than continuous, and may have thermals in it, causing a higher work load to remain wings level and right on altitude.
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Since this is intended to be a training flight, the extra workload of trying to be exactly on the numbers will cause sweat that you will not have in normal IFR, but will train you to keep proper standards in normal; flight. My original PPL instructor insisted that I file and fly VFR flight plans on all my cross countries, and fly to IFR standards, with flight following when available. The result, the scan and performane was already ingrained when I started IR training. I also flew the instrument approach in visual conditions, keeping an eye out for traffic, on all my cross countries, before and after the IR. Thus, the real, when it came, was a familiar sequence.
The instructor who took me through my training was very complimentary of the skills I had. He looked for opportunities to get into real clouds when we could, and I never had trouble with the change from blinders to blind.
Again, layers above 1000 feet are your friend, even if they are not thick. Up and down is the normal cycle for IR work. I have had only one leg that went IR AT 1000, stayed that way for 2+ hours, and broke out at 1000. If the layer is at 4000 AGL, file above it, and after visual above, request lower, tell the controller why, and repeat as many times as he will allow. Land, relax a bit, and file back home, same game.
\
Since this is intended to be a training flight, the extra workload of trying to be exactly on the numbers will cause sweat that you will not have in normal IFR, but will train you to keep proper standards in normal; flight. My original PPL instructor insisted that I file and fly VFR flight plans on all my cross countries, and fly to IFR standards, with flight following when available. The result, the scan and performane was already ingrained when I started IR training. I also flew the instrument approach in visual conditions, keeping an eye out for traffic, on all my cross countries, before and after the IR. Thus, the real, when it came, was a familiar sequence.
The instructor who took me through my training was very complimentary of the skills I had. He looked for opportunities to get into real clouds when we could, and I never had trouble with the change from blinders to blind.
Again, layers above 1000 feet are your friend, even if they are not thick. Up and down is the normal cycle for IR work. I have had only one leg that went IR AT 1000, stayed that way for 2+ hours, and broke out at 1000. If the layer is at 4000 AGL, file above it, and after visual above, request lower, tell the controller why, and repeat as many times as he will allow. Land, relax a bit, and file back home, same game.
BrianNC
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Because they probably got their instrument not flying in any IMC. So they rarely do it with anyone they train.
4CornerFlyer
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There are parts of the US where there is very rare soft IFR. Change the wording to “My Cfii didn’t want to fly in icing and thunderstorms,” and it makes more sense.
Hard to find good practice IMC in my part of the country.
Jon
Hard to find good practice IMC in my part of the country.
Jon