IFR Oral gotcha questions

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Ben
Please post some possible gotcha questions for the IFR oral. The obvious questions are covered in many texts, but how about those ones that stumped you on your practical? CFIIs, what questions did your students tell you about that surprised you? Help me prepare for the oral!
 
You may know this already, but the one that stumped me on my oral was the DE pointing to various spots on the low chart and asking me how wide the protected area on the route was at that particular point. The answer is not 4 miles either side of course!
 
Have you seen the ASA instrument oral exam guide Ben?
Knowing you, I bet you've got all the important stuff nailed already. There is enough in the 'just regular' questions to keep the DE busy for the instrument.
Instead of hammering out those perfect answers - drag it a little bit, pretend to have to think about it - otherwise he'll see the level you are at and start shooting toughies at you right away!
 
wangmyers said:
Please post some possible gotcha questions for the IFR oral.

1. What kind of ice causes the most accidents? (Answer: carb ice)
2. What ice protection equipment does this C172 (Mooney, Cherokee. ... fill in the blank) have? (Answer: carb heat and pitot heat)

Ed Guthrie
 
For me it was. You can't get into your destination and you fly to your alternate and can't get in. What do you do? You are in IMC and you have already lost comms.


Mark Bell
 
Ben, here's one for you to chew on:

"You are on the VOR DME-A to Ellensburg, WA having just completed the heading turn at ELN and begun the descent out of 3200. The airport is not in sight when both VORs flag. You are not GPS equipped. Radar is generally not available below 4000 msl at this location (which is true). How do you fly the miss?"
 
I was given a route. I was asked if I had lost comm, how would I get from 5000 ft on a given airway to 2200 ft for the approach. Where and how would I lose the altitude.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
What ice protection equipment does this C172 (Mooney, Cherokee. ... fill in the blank) have? (Answer: carb heat and pitot heat)
Ed Guthrie

I got that one too Ed. I also was prompted for windshield defrost and alternate airs (2 of them).
 
Be very careful about how and when you file an alternate that has GPS approaches only...or has approaches that require GPS as substitution for DME, etc. There are some strict rules about this, and you will probably get drilled on them given the new tendancy for everybody to fly behind a panel-mount GPS.
 
markb5900 said:
For me it was. You can't get into your destination and you fly to your alternate and can't get in. What do you do? You are in IMC and you have already lost comms.


Mark Bell

Fly to nearest VMC and land.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Have you seen the ASA instrument oral exam guide Ben?
Knowing you, I bet you've got all the important stuff nailed already. There is enough in the 'just regular' questions to keep the DE busy for the instrument.
Instead of hammering out those perfect answers - drag it a little bit, pretend to have to think about it - otherwise he'll see the level you are at and start shooting toughies at you right away!
Thanks, Dave!
 
bbchien said:
Ben, here's one for you to chew on:

"You are on the VOR DME-A to Ellensburg, WA having just completed the heading turn at ELN and begun the descent out of 3200. The airport is not in sight when both VORs flag. You are not GPS equipped. Radar is generally not available below 4000 msl at this location (which is true). How do you fly the miss?"
My answer would be that you should have started your timer after crossing the VOR. When you hear "beep-beep-beep-beep!" you initiate the missed. With no VORS initiate a climbing left turn to a rough heading (say 050) and stay within 5 DME. Now, without the VORs, you really can't fly the missed, so what I'd do is that once I got within a mile DME of the VOR, I'd initiate a climbing standard rate turn right there while trying to contact ATC!
 
RobertGerace said:
Be very careful about how and when you file an alternate that has GPS approaches only...or has approaches that require GPS as substitution for DME, etc. There are some strict rules about this, and you will probably get drilled on them given the new tendancy for everybody to fly behind a panel-mount GPS.
thanks, Bob!
 
Speed said:
You may know this already, but the one that stumped me on my oral was the DE pointing to various spots on the low chart and asking me how wide the protected area on the route was at that particular point. The answer is not 4 miles either side of course!

What was the answer to this one? I'm stumped and my oral is coming up too....

--Kath
 
kath said:
What was the answer to this one? I'm stumped and my oral is coming up too....

The exact answer depends on how far the point is from the VOR defining the airway at that point, and IIRC the formula varies with distance. See the TERPS manual for the exact formula(s)/answer.

Ed Guthrie
 
Ed Guthrie said:
2. What ice protection equipment does this C172 (Mooney, Cherokee. ... fill in the blank) have? (Answer: carb heat and pitot heat)

Ed Guthrie

I was asked that one on my private oral, but dunno why, I shouldn't be in any clouds.

I did get it right, though.
 
Wait a minute. I know that the beam width vaires with your distance from the station, but I thought that you were provided with four (legal) miles of protection either side of an airway, and 1000 feet above obstacles, 2000 in mountainous areas.
 
wangmyers said:
Wait a minute. I know that the beam width vaires with your distance from the station, but I thought that you were provided with four (legal) miles of protection either side of an airway, and 1000 feet above obstacles, 2000 in mountainous areas.

From the TERPS:

Section 1. VHF Obstacle Clearance Areas

1711. PRIMARY AREAS.
a. Basic Area. The primary enroute obstacle clearance area extends from each radio facility on an airway or route to the next facility. It has a width of 8 NM; 4 NM on each side of the centerline of the airway or route.

b. System Accuracy. <b>System accuracy lines are drawn at a 4.5 degree angle on each side of the course or route.</b> See Figure 17-1. The apexes of the 4.5 degree angles are at the facility. These system accuracy lines will intersect the boundaries of the primary area at a point 50.8 NM front the facility. (Normally 51 NM is used.) <b>If the distance front the facility to the changeover point (COP) is more than 51 NM, the outer boundary of the primary area extends beyond the 4 NM width along the 4.5 degree line.</b> See Figure 17-2. These examples apply when the COP is at midpoint. Paragraph 1716 covers the effect of offset COP or dogleg segment

c. Termination point. When the airway or route terminates at a navigational facility or other radio fix, the primary area extends beyond that termination point. The boundary of the area may be defined by an arc which connects the two boundary lines. The center of the are is, in the case of a facility termination point, located at the geographic location of the facility. <b>In the case of a termination at a radial or DME fix, the boundary is formed by an arc with its center located at the most distant point of the fix displacement area on course line.</b> Figure 17-8 and its inset show the construction of the area at the termination point.

1712. SECONDARY AREAS.

a. Basic Area. <b>The secondary obstacle clearance area extends along a line drawn 2 NM on each side of the primary area.</b>

b. System Accuracy. </b>Secondary area system accuracy lines are drawn at a 6.7 degree angle on each side of the course or route. </b>See Figure 17-3. The apexes are at the facility. These system accuracy lines will intersect the outer boundaries of the secondary areas at the same point as primary lines, 51 NM from the facility. <b>If the distance from the facility to the COP is more than 51 NM, the secondary area extends along the 6.7 degree line.</b> See Figure 17-4. See paragraph 1716c and d for offset COP or dogleg airway.

c. Termination Point. <b>Where the airway or route terminates at a facility or radio fix the boundaries are connected by an arc in the same way as those in the primary area.</b> Figure 17-8 and its inset shows termination point secondary areas.

1713. TURNING AREA.

a. Definition. The enroute turning area may be defined as an area which may extend the primary and secondary obstacle clearance areas when a change of course is necessary. The dimensions of primary and secondary areas will provide adequate protection where the aircraft is tracking along a specific radial, but when the pilot executes a turn, the aircraft may go beyond the boundaries of the protected airspace. The turning area criteria supplements the airway and route segment criteria to protect the aircraft in the turn.

b. Requirement for Turning Area Criteria. Because of the limitation on aircraft indicated airspeeds below 10,000 feet MSL (FAR 91.70), some conditions do not require the application of turning area airspace criteria.

(1) The graph in Figure 17-5 may be used to determine if the turning area should be plotted for airways/routes below 10,000 feet MSL. If the point of intersection on the graph of the "amount of turn at intersection" versus "VOR facility to intersection distance" falls outside the hatched area of the graph, the turning area criteria need not be applied.

(2) If the "amount of turn" versus "facility distance" values fall with the hatched area or outside the periphery of the graph, then the turning area criteria must be applied as described in paragraph 1714.

c. Track. The flight track resulting from a combination of turn delay, inertia, turning rate, and wind effect is represented by a parabolic curve. For ease of application, a radius arc has been developed which can be applied to any scale chart.

d. Curve Radii. A 250 knot IAS, which is the maximum allowed below 10,000 feet MSL, results in radii of 2 NM for the primary are and 4 NM for the secondary area up to that altitude. For altitudes above 10,000 feet MSL up to but not including 18,000 feet MSL the primary area radius is 6 NM and the secondary area radius is 8 NM. Above 18,000 feet MSL the radii are 11 NM for primary and 13 NM for secondary.

e. System Accuracy. In drawing turning areas it will be necessary to consider system accuracy factors by applying them to the most adverse displacement of the radio fix or airway/route boundaries at which the turn is made. The 4.5 and 6.7 degree factors apply to the VOR radial being flown, but since no pilot or aircraft factors exist in the measurement of an intersection radial, a navigation facility factor of plus-or-minus 3.6 degrees is used. See Figure 17-6.

NOTE: If a radio fix is formed by intersecting signals from two LF, or one LF and VOR facility, the obstacle clearance areas are based upon accuracy factors of 5.0 (primary) and 7.5 (secondary) degrees each side of the course or route centerlines of the LF facilities. If the VOR radial is the intersection signal, the 3.6 degree value stated in 1713e above applies.



So, in the straight forward case we have 8 nm wide primary area plus 2 nm additional protected airspace (secondary area) on either side of the primary area, making the total protected area 12 nm wide. If the airway extends more the 51 nm from the VOR the primary area is a +/- 4.5 degree fan and the secondary is a +/- 6.7 degree fan. The total protected area width at any point beyond 51 nm from the station equals d*TAN(6.7), where d is the distance from the station.

Things get really entertaining near an airway turn point.


Ed Guthrie
 
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Ed Guthrie said:
From the TERPS:

Section 1. VHF Obstacle Clearance Areas

1711. PRIMARY AREAS.
a. Basic Area. The primary enroute obstacle clearance area extends from each radio facility on an airway or route to the next facility. It has a width of 8 NM; 4 NM on each side of the centerline of the airway or route.
1712. SECONDARY AREAS.

a. Basic Area. <b>The secondary obstacle clearance area extends along a line drawn 2 NM on each side of the primary area.</b>

So, in the straight forward case we have 4 nm wide primary area plus 2 nm additional protected airspace (secondary area) on either side of the primary area, making the total protected area 8 nm wide. If the airway extends more the 51 nm from the VOR the primary area is a +/- 4.5 degree fan and the secondary is a +/- 6.7 degree fan. The total protected area width at any point beyond 51 nm from the station equals d*TAN(6.7), where d is the distance from the station.

I was with you right up to the point where you figured 2*(4+2) = 8. That comes to 12 on my calculator.
 
I think its 4 + (2 * 2) -- a 4 mile wide area - 2 miles on either side of center as the primary - + 2 miles on either side of the primary as the secondary.
 
lancefisher said:
I was with you right up to the point where you figured 2*(4+2) = 8. That comes to 12 on my calculator.

From "The Big Chill":

"You are so analytical! Sometimes you just have to let art be art."

;-)
 
Greebo said:
I think its 4 + (2 * 2) -- a 4 mile wide area - 2 miles on either side of center as the primary - + 2 miles on either side of the primary as the secondary.

Nope. Lance is correct--I need remedial math.

Ed Guthrie
 
I was given a hypothetical clearance to hold at a local VOR, and asked if I would accept it. Correct answer: No, since there was no mention of an EFC time. Nailed me cold on that one! Ugh!
Dick Schomburg
Hillsboro, Oregon
 
Sorry, what's EFC?

Expected further clearance time?
 
Yes, that's it: Expect Further Clearance (time of)

Without which you'd be up the creek in a COMM failure, with no defined time at which to depart the hold.

Dick
 
Okay, here's one. You're flying a RNAV (GPS) approach to your favorite lunch spot. You've done a RAIM predict and everything looks good for the lunch special. You're in IMC at the FAF and while the ceiling and vis is pretty good down at the MAP, you've got several hundred feet to descend, when suddenly, RAIM FAIL appears on the display of your GPS. What to do? :confused:
 
Fast n' Furious said:
Okay, here's one. You're flying a RNAV (GPS) approach to your favorite lunch spot. You've done a RAIM predict and everything looks good for the lunch special. You're in IMC at the FAF and while the ceiling and vis is pretty good down at the MAP, you've got several hundred feet to descend, when suddenly, RAIM FAIL appears on the display of your GPS. What to do? :confused:
Go for the salad bar instead of the lunch special? :D

Okay here's my guess.... go missed because GPS is hosed without RAIM.

--Kath
 
Good so far, Kath. Without RAIM can you find your missed approach point? Can you find your missed approach holding fix? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
I have always thought that asking the student the question, "The navaid goes down inside of the IAF. Now What?" is the single best test of how well he/she has briefed the chart. To give a rational answer requires that one have looked at EVERY approach at Podunk Regional and understand where the airspace is protected.

The questions about requirements for the alternate vis a vis GPS vs. land based navaids all go away with this scenario. In JR's example, if your alternate was GPS based you're really hosed (besides being very very illegal).
 
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wangmyers said:
Yes, you can find them.

So you don't need RAIM for anything but the final approach segment? Is that what your saying young Padawan? Stop looking around, I'm talking to you.:eek:
 
Can you tell that I've been training in a non-/G aircraft? Here's what I've researched: (AIM 1-1-19-j-4)

If the receiver does not sequence into the approach mode or a RAIM failure/status annunciation occurs prior to the FAWP, the pilot should not descend to Minimum Descent Altitude (MDA), but should proceed to the missed approach waypoint (MAWP) via the FAWP, perform a missed approach, and contact ATC as soon as practical. [emphasis mine] Refer to the receiver operating manual for specific indications and instructions associated with loss of RAIM prior to the FAF.
This seems to indicate that although you may have lost RAIM, you are still able to navigate to the MAWP and even perform the missed approach. Note, also, that the phrase, "contact ATC as soon as practical," occurs in sequence after you've performed the missed approach.

In your question, the RAIM failure occurs after passing the FAWP. Here's the guidance on that: (AIM 1-1-19-j-5)

If a RAIM failure occurs after the FAWP, the receiver is allowed to continue operating without an annunciation for up to 5 minutes to allow completion of the approach (see receiver operating manual). If the RAIM flag/status annunciation appears after the FAWP, the missed approach should be executed immediately.
If RAIM failure meant that one couldn't identify the MAWP, how could one execute the missed approach? If RAIM failure meant that one couldn't perform the missed as printed, then there would have to be an alternate missed that didn't use GPS.

Whew! Hope I'm understanding these quotes correctly!



Fast n' Furious said:
So you don't need RAIM for anything but the final approach segment? Is that what your saying young Padawan? Stop looking around, I'm talking to you.:eek:
 
Okay, I have been training in a /G, so I should know this one!
Without RAIM, the GPS won't go into "approach mode" after the FAF. With approach mode, the CDI needle has greater sensitivity (0.3 mile). Without RAIM and approach mode activation, the CDI needle will still have lousy sensitivity (1.0 mile). You don't want lousy sensitivity while barreling down the final approach segment -- so you go missed. But it should be enough sensitivity to find the MAP.
How'd I do?

--Kath
 
"RAIM failure? What RAIM failure? Must have happnened after I broke out and wasn't looking at the GPS anymore."

How'd I do? :D
 
wangmyers said:
My answer would be that you should have started your timer after crossing the VOR. When you hear "beep-beep-beep-beep!" you initiate the missed. With no VORS initiate a climbing left turn to a rough heading (say 050) and stay within 5 DME. Now, without the VORs, you really can't fly the missed, so what I'd do is that once I got within a mile DME of the VOR, I'd initiate a climbing standard rate turn right there while trying to contact ATC!


Then fly about 30 nm north of that location, land at KEAT, and call me. I'll pick you up and take you to lunch. Wenatchee doesn't have nearly as much cruddy weather as E-Burg does.

Good question, Dr Bruce. I've got to get my behind back in the air and get some IFR flying in. I'm sure that one would have come up!!!!
 
Bill Jennings said:
I was asked that one on my private oral, but dunno why, I shouldn't be in any clouds.

True. But you can encounter ice even if your VFR.
 
DeeG said:
True. But you can encounter ice even if your VFR.
I was under the impression that for there to be a danger of ice formation, you must be in visible moisture. That, to me, means clouds or rain, and if you're in rain, well, its not very likely the water's supercooled is it?
 
Greebo said:
I was under the impression that for there to be a danger of ice formation, you must be in visible moisture. That, to me, means clouds or rain, and if you're in rain, well, its not very likely the water's supercooled is it?
Visible moisture isn't just clouds. I'll have to post some pics of the Arrow I was flying in when I got caught in freeezing rain.
 
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