IFR Oral gotcha questions

[Ed Guthrie]

I was under the impression that for there to be a danger of ice formation, you must be in visible moisture. That, to me, means clouds or rain, and if you're in rain, well, its not very likely the water's supercooled is it?

Freezing rain is usually/quite often supercooled water. If it weren't, it would run on impact versus freeze immediately as it does.

Ed Guthrie

 

[poadeleted20]

Be very careful about how and when you file an alternate that has GPS approaches only...or has approaches that require GPS as substitution for DME, etc. There are some strict rules about this, and you will probably get drilled on them given the new tendancy for everybody to fly behind a panel-mount GPS.

...the rule being that it isn't acceptable to file as a required alternate an airport where you can't fly an approach without GPS. See AIM 1-1-19 for the details -- it's in a NOTE, I believe.

 

[poadeleted20]

The one that gets three-quarters of our students on their pre-test oral prep is departing from Cumberland MD. I tell them they're cleared to Dayton OH via Grantsville V214 etc. Then I tell them they're departing on Rwy 23. How will they get from liftoff to GRV? Usually, they say, "Climb to 400 AGL and then turn right direct to GRV." I then tell them they just died -- y'oughta see the shocked look! Out comes the sectional, and then they see the 3000-foot ridge into which they just "flew." Now we go back to the approach book and look up the ODP out of CBE -- OOPS!!! You must intercept the CBE NDB 177 bearing and climb to 3400 before turning on course.

So many pilots learn at airports without any type of DP that they forget to check for them, and if they remember, they usually look only at the SID's, not the ODP's, too.

GOTCHA!

 

[kath]

So, Ron,

What happens if there exists an Obstacle DP at an airport, and also a "regular" DP which says "after takeoff, radar vectors"? Are you supposed to follow the Obstacle DP, or the radar vectors?

Here's my guess, and tell me if this is right:
If you're "cleared to Blahsville via the Podunk Two departure" then you follow the radar vectors and ignore the obstacle DP.
If you're "cleared to Blahsville via the R-103 radial of the Greasy VOR" then you follow the obstacle DP while finding your own way to the Greasy radial.

Eh?

--Kath

 

[DeeG]

Here's my guess, and tell me if this is right:
If you're "cleared to Blahsville via the Podunk Two departure" then you follow the radar vectors and ignore the obstacle DP.
If you're "cleared to Blahsville via the R-103 radial of the Greasy VOR" then you follow the obstacle DP while finding your own way to the Greasy radial.

Eh?

--Kath

It's been a while since I've flown IFR, but I would have a real hard time following vectors in actual after having lost comm. In your first example, if I lost comm after take off, I would ignore the vectors and just follow the DP. Are the 'last' vectors given to you enough for terrain clearance, or was it an 'intermediate' vector to move you out of the way that would have been followed by another vector to get you back on course? (assuming you never got that 'second' vector) But then again, those instructions may have been to keep you out of the way of that 747 that was inbound.............. I guess its all a matter of situational awareness. If you lost comm on a vector, keep a good watch on where you are, and if your course is going to take you somewhere you don't want to go, revert back to DP (??)

Dee

 

[spiderweb]

Luckily, I actually flew to KCBE on my long IFR X-C, and I did check the DP. Man, there was a lot of mechanical turb that day, but it all cleared away about 300' AGL.

The one that gets three-quarters of our students on their pre-test oral prep is departing from Cumberland MD. I tell them they're cleared to Dayton OH via Grantsville V214 etc. Then I tell them they're departing on Rwy 23. How will they get from liftoff to GRV? Usually, they say, "Climb to 400 AGL and then turn right direct to GRV." I then tell them they just died -- y'oughta see the shocked look! Out comes the sectional, and then they see the 3000-foot ridge into which they just "flew." Now we go back to the approach book and look up the ODP out of CBE -- OOPS!!! You must intercept the CBE NDB 177 bearing and climb to 3400 before turning on course.

So many pilots learn at airports without any type of DP that they forget to check for them, and if they remember, they usually look only at the SID's, not the ODP's, too.

GOTCHA!

 

[spiderweb]

Kath, Ron will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the song goes like this: any DP will take an ODP into consideration. I'd always watch my back when departing, DP, vectors, or otherwise, though.

So, Ron,

What happens if there exists an Obstacle DP at an airport, and also a "regular" DP which says "after takeoff, radar vectors"? Are you supposed to follow the Obstacle DP, or the radar vectors?

Here's my guess, and tell me if this is right:
If you're "cleared to Blahsville via the Podunk Two departure" then you follow the radar vectors and ignore the obstacle DP.
If you're "cleared to Blahsville via the R-103 radial of the Greasy VOR" then you follow the obstacle DP while finding your own way to the Greasy radial.

Eh?

--Kath

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Ben and Kath,

You were both correct on your answers, good job. Take the practical as soon as you can. Relax and have fun. Okay, last question from me. You pay your DE with a check and then go fly a perfect checkride and receive a temp certificate for your trouble. Two days later the DE calls you and says your check bounced. Do you have to forfeit your rating?

 

[spiderweb]

Ben and Kath,

You were both correct on your answers, good job. Take the practical as soon as you can. Relax and have fun. Okay, last question from me. You pay your DE with a check and then go fly a perfect checkride and receive a temp certificate for your trouble. Two days later the DE calls you and says your check bounced. Do you have to forfeit your rating?

LOL! This is probably why DPEs like cash!

 

[kath]

Take the practical as soon as you can. Relax and have fun.

April 27th !!!!!!!! :zap!:

Okay, last question from me. You pay your DE with a check and then go fly a perfect checkride and receive a temp certificate for your trouble. Two days later the DE calls you and says your check bounced. Do you have to forfeit your rating?

No, but the DE sends a couple of goons to break your legs, and then you lose your medical?
(Ben, my DE only takes cash too!)

--Kath

 

[poadeleted20]

What happens if there exists an Obstacle DP at an airport, and also a "regular" DP which says "after takeoff, radar vectors"? Are you supposed to follow the Obstacle DP, or the radar vectors?

There are only two kinds of DP's -- the textual ODP's in the front (C-pages) of approach chart book, and the graphic SID's mixed in with the approach charts for that airport. If by "regular" DP you mean a SID, then I would say that I have never run across an airport with both, although I'm sure that statement will no doubt elicit 62 examples of such. However, if such does exist, then...

Here's my guess, and tell me if this is right:
If you're "cleared to Blahsville via the Podunk Two departure" then you follow the radar vectors and ignore the obstacle DP.?

Agreed.

If you're "cleared to Blahsville via the R-103 radial of the Greasy VOR" then you follow the obstacle DP while finding your own way to the Greasy radial.

...should probably work, with the caveat that you only head for the Greasy 103 radial after complying with the ODP, i.e., if it says "fly heading 120 to 3000 before turning on course," then you don't turn for the radial until passing 3000.

 

[wsuffa]

There are only two kinds of DP's -- the textual ODP's in the front (C-pages) of approach chart book, and the graphic SID's mixed in with the approach charts for that airport. If by "regular" DP you mean a SID, then I would say that I have never run across an airport with both, although I'm sure that statement will no doubt elicit 62 examples of such. However, if such does exist, then...

And since you're expecting it, I might as well provide one such case.

Take a look at the charts for Roanoke, VA (KROA).

You'll find both an ODP in the front of the book for Rwy 15, and a graphic SID in the back (HOKEE1). You'll also find a SID in the back (DIXXY4) that's labeled as an Obstacle DP (and you are referred to it from the ODP list in the front). On DIXXY4, you fly the LOC course outbound.....

 

[poadeleted20]

And since you're expecting it, I might as well provide one such case.

Take a look at the charts for Roanoke, VA (KROA).

You'll find both an ODP in the front of the book for Rwy 15, and a graphic SID in the back (HOKEE1). You'll also find a SID in the back (DIXXY4) that's labeled as an Obstacle DP (and you are referred to it from the ODP list in the front). On DIXXY4, you fly the LOC course outbound.....

Got me. However...

...the DIXXY4 is only for Rwy 24 and the textual ODP is limited to Rwy 15. So, while both textual and graphic DP's are included for the airport, there are no choices for the pilot once a runway has been selected. Departing on Rwy 15, use the textual ODP; departing on Rwy 24, fly the DIXXY4; departing on Rwy 6 or 33, just use the standard climb to 400 AGL before turning.

 

[wsuffa]

Got me. However...

...the DIXXY4 is only for Rwy 24 and the textual ODP is limited to Rwy 15. So, while both textual and graphic DP's are included for the airport, there are no choices for the pilot once a runway has been selected. Departing on Rwy 15, use the textual ODP; departing on Rwy 24, fly the DIXXY4; departing on Rwy 6 or 33, just use the standard climb to 400 AGL before turning.

Actually, the Rwy 15 proceedures are close but not exact.

The ODP for Rwy 15 requires departure on heading 154 to intercept the ROA Vortac 122 radial to 4,000 then on course.

The HOKEE1 for Rwy 15 requires climbing right turn to 5000 via ODR R-153 to Hokee intersection.

Those procedures are not the same. In the NOS charts, the ODP does not carry the minimum climb requirement for Rwy-15 that the HOKEE1 departure carries (260' per NM to 2300'). Flyer, beware!

 

[maximus]

What if you cannot meet climb gradient for a DP... lets say 500/nm. Can you be cleared for a shuttle climb?


Maximus

 

[wsuffa]

Ben,

Here's another question for you:

You are planning to depart a Class D airport where the tower is operating. Reported conditions are 1/4 SM in Fog, indefinite ceiling. You can't see the tower from the runway, and the tower can't see you. This is below the standard departure minimums that apply for the airport. Can you depart under IFR? Can the tower clear you for takeoff (assuming no other aircraft nearby)?

I'll add the following: from previous experience at the airport, you know that the tallest obstruction within 3 miles of the departure end of the runway is the runway light structure for opposite-direction arrivals, which sits about 20' above runway elevation.

bill

 

[wsuffa]

What if you cannot meet climb gradient for a DP... lets say 500/nm. Can you be cleared for a shutle climb?


Maximus

VMC or IMC?

 

[maximus]

VMC or IMC?

Lets assume IMC to the enroute altitude

 

[wsuffa]

Lets assume IMC to the enroute altitude

Since ATC doesn't know the actual performance of your aircraft, I think they can issue a clearance, but performance is on your own.

If it were VMC, you simply ask for and receive a "VFR Climb clearance, we'll maintain terrain clearance", then on-course.

Since that performance criteria is there for a reason, terrain, for example, I'd ask you: If it's truly IMC, would you want to risk it???? OTOH, you may cause a "deal" if the climb rate is there to avoid busting the protected area for a climb or instrument approach out of a major nearby airport (see the altitude restrictions for KORL somewhere else on this board)... in which case I think you'll have a real problem.

BTW, ATC can clear you to do a lot of things that are not in compliance with the regs. Ultimately, you're responsible for compliance....

 

[Dave Siciliano]

There are some real gotyas on climb gradients. Make sure you fully understand them before departing!! Tahoe allows departure in a direction that requires a pretty strong climb. There are also standard gradients that assume you are at altitude at "the end of the runway threashold". If you take off in that direction and aren't that high at the end of the runway; you probably need to circle to climb.

Best,

Dave

 

[bbchien]

Try these:

 

[spiderweb]

Thanks for keeping 'em coming.

Ben,

Here's another question for you:

You are planning to depart a Class D airport where the tower is operating. Reported conditions are 1/4 SM in Fog, indefinite ceiling. You can't see the tower from the runway, and the tower can't see you. This is below the standard departure minimums that apply for the airport. Can you depart under IFR? Can the tower clear you for takeoff (assuming no other aircraft nearby)?

I'll add the following: from previous experience at the airport, you know that the tallest obstruction within 3 miles of the departure end of the runway is the runway light structure for opposite-direction arrivals, which sits about 20' above runway elevation.

bill

If I'm flying for EVA Airways (my current favorite airline), I can't. If I'm flying the Zlin or Saratoga, I am legal to depart, but I'd be taking a risk.

 

[spiderweb]

Try these:

Wow. If I'm going there, it will either be in excellent VMC in a turbocharged single, or IFR in a turbocharged twin.

 

[bbchien]

Wow. If I'm going there, it will either be in excellent VMC in a turbocharged single, or IFR in a turbocharged twin.

That's pretty much it, too. Summer to the festival in a Turbo Mooney. Winter to the ski slopes in the Seneca

 

[RobertGerace]

Ben,

Here's another one for you:

1) You get to Leesburg and you realize that they have an RCO to get your clearance. You s-l-o-w-l-y click the PTT 4 times and you're on the phone. The controller tells you that he has two inbound and you'll sit on the ground for 30 minutes unless you want to take off VFR and pick up your clearance in the air. Automated weather is reporting a 2,000 foot ceiling. It is clear to the south but you're headed north and there are black clouds. You've checked the weather and there are lots of clouds but no convection. It is sun-&-fun and the skys are hornets nests. Do you go? (I did.)

2) You call ATC at 500 and they don't hear you. You try again at 1,000 and you get them. The clouds are 1,000 above you, so you slow your climb. The controller tells you to climb and maintain 3,000 because he doesn't not have you on radar. Remain VFR. You tell him that you are unable as the clouds are 1,000 above you. You can hear the wheels turning in his head and he says: N310RG...cleared to the Leesburg NDB via Radar Vectors; Fly heading 360; maintain 3,000. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT CLEARANCE? This is the classic 'gotcha' because if you lose comms you have nowhere to go.

I did accept it, and went IMC. He had me on radar at 2,500 and cleared me direct to LZU at 10,000. I broke out at 8,000 and had a beautiful ride home.

Dumb? I knew I only had about a 2 minute window where both comms would have to fail (or my entire electrical system). I knew there was clear weather below.

Of course, it *was* sun&fun time, and the sky was FULL. If I squawked 7600 and did a descending 180 back to Leesburg that would not have been risk free. Continuing the climb would have been a better option, as the clouds could only be so high, and because they were supposed to get less as I got north...and were not there to the south...either way...it would suck.

That decision probably would have failed a checkride...but in the real world...sometimes it's how things get done...

 

[spiderweb]

Ben,

Here's another one for you:

1) You get to Leesburg and you realize that they have an RCO to get your clearance. You s-l-o-w-l-y click the PTT 4 times and you're on the phone. The controller tells you that he has two inbound and you'll sit on the ground for 30 minutes unless you want to take off VFR and pick up your clearance in the air. Automated weather is reporting a 2,000 foot ceiling. It is clear to the south but you're headed north and there are black clouds. You've checked the weather and there are lots of clouds but no convection. It is sun-&-fun and the skys are hornets nests. Do you go? (I did.)

Yes, but only because I know the area. Additionally, I'll head south first and if I don't get my clearance soon or I don't like what I see, I'll turn around and land. There are some gnarly ridges in the area, and I won't try to cross over to OKV or go up to FDK even though I could probably do so maintaining VFR.

2) You call ATC at 500 and they don't hear you. You try again at 1,000 and you get them. The clouds are 1,000 above you, so you slow your climb. The controller tells you to climb and maintain 3,000 because he doesn't not have you on radar. Remain VFR. You tell him that you are unable as the clouds are 1,000 above you. You can hear the wheels turning in his head and he says: N310RG...cleared to the Leesburg NDB via Radar Vectors; Fly heading 360; maintain 3,000. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT CLEARANCE? This is the classic 'gotcha' because if you lose comms you have nowhere to go.

I don't like partial clearances like that, but I guess I would accept it, also immediately formulating plan B for lost comms. If I lost comms in this case, I would turn to 180, descending back to VFR, land at JYO and call ATC.

I did accept it, and went IMC. He had me on radar at 2,500 and cleared me direct to LZU at 10,000. I broke out at 8,000 and had a beautiful ride home.

Dumb? I knew I only had about a 2 minute window where both comms would have to fail (or my entire electrical system). I knew there was clear weather below.

I don't think you were dumb, as long as you weighed the odds of lost comm, and also had an out.

Of course, it *was* sun&fun time, and the sky was FULL. If I squawked 7600 and did a descending 180 back to Leesburg that would not have been risk free. Continuing the climb would have been a better option, as the clouds could only be so high, and because they were supposed to get less as I got north...and were not there to the south...either way...it would suck.

That decision probably would have failed a checkride...but in the real world...sometimes it's how things get done...

Please explain how it would have failed a checkride. I'm not doubting you, but I would like to know the reg that was busted (if any).

Thanks!

 

[RobertGerace]

Oh, well, maybe not a failure, but a scolding? You're never supposed to accept a clearance to nowhere as far as I know...no reg...just good practice.

 

[spiderweb]

This happens all the time around here. You are /A, on an IFR flight plan. In the air, you are cleared direct to an intersection (and you are not on an airway). What do you do? (I know the answer to this one!)

 

[spiderweb]

Here's another. Weather is: ceiling is 1,600 feet, and vis is 2 miles. Can you practice touch and go's VFR?

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KESN

 

[bbchien]

G-space? or E-space?

 

[Ed Guthrie]

G-space? or E-space?

Day or night?

 

[poadeleted20]

1) You get to Leesburg and you realize that they have an RCO to get your clearance. You s-l-o-w-l-y click the PTT 4 times and you're on the phone. The controller tells you that he has two inbound and you'll sit on the ground for 30 minutes unless you want to take off VFR and pick up your clearance in the air. Automated weather is reporting a 2,000 foot ceiling. It is clear to the south but you're headed north and there are black clouds. You've checked the weather and there are lots of clouds but no convection. It is sun-&-fun and the skys are hornets nests. Do you go? (I did.)

No, I don't, unless I have a good "out" in case the controller tells me airborne, "Stand by, maintain VFR, will advise when able to issue a clearance." And the only out I see for that is to return to Leesburg, since north out of Leesburg is into terrain.

2) You call ATC at 500 and they don't hear you. You try again at 1,000 and you get them. The clouds are 1,000 above you, so you slow your climb. The controller tells you to climb and maintain 3,000 because he doesn't not have you on radar. Remain VFR.

This is an invitation to disaster. Either you're cleared to 3000, or you remain in VMC. That said, I have heard them say things like, "If you can get to 3000 VFR, I can give you a clearance."

You tell him that you are unable as the clouds are 1,000 above you. You can hear the wheels turning in his head and he says: N310RG...cleared to the Leesburg NDB via Radar Vectors; Fly heading 360; maintain 3,000. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT CLEARANCE? This is the classic 'gotcha' because if you lose comms you have nowhere to go.

I don't think he's supposed to issue such a clearance. One of the ATC types can confirm this, but IIRC, they MUST issue a destination airport as part of the initial IFR clearance, although they can set the initial clearance limit as some point short of it with appropriate holding instructions.

 

[poadeleted20]

This happens all the time around here. You are /A, on an IFR flight plan. In the air, you are cleared direct to an intersection (and you are not on an airway). What do you do? (I know the answer to this one!)

For those unaware, there is an item in the Instrument PTS about whether the applicant can determine whether he can accept a particular clearance, and the answer to Ben's case is "no" unless the aircraft is already established on one of the radials defining the intersection.

 

[spiderweb]

For those unaware, there is an item in the Instrument PTS about whether the applicant can determine whether he can accept a particular clearance, and the answer to Ben's case is "no" unless the aircraft is already established on one of the radials defining the intersection.

Good, 'cause that's what I was taught.

 

[spiderweb]

G-space? or E-space?

Sorry, I guess AIRNAV doesn't have that info. KESN is Class G, but Class E from 700'. Let's say it is daytime.

 

[bbchien]

If the controller hasn't got radar contact, how can he issue a clearance to Leesburg NDB via radar vectors...

 

[gismo]

Here's another. Weather is: ceiling is 1,600 feet, and vis is 2 miles. Can you practice touch and go's VFR?

Sorry, I guess AIRNAV doesn't have that info. KESN is Class G, but Class E from 700'. Let's say it is daytime.

Then the issue becomes can you abide by 91.219 while remaining below 700 AGL:

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

AFaIK being in the traffic pattern doesn't waive the 91.219 requirements until it's necessary to descend to make a normal landing.

 

[wsuffa]

Then the issue becomes can you abide by 91.219 while remaining below 700 AGL:



AFaIK being in the traffic pattern doesn't waive the 91.219 requirements until it's necessary to descend to make a normal landing.

Correct.

Assuming a rural (unpopulated) area surrounding the airport, and remaining in Class G airspace should be legal between 500' and 650' in the daytime. Now, the next question is whether the traffic pattern altitude is regulatory or not. And I think you need to consider both Federal regs and local laws, since some airports establish pattern altitude in their local codes.

Ron noted a case at my request in another thread where a pilot was violated for flying below 1000' in the pattern.

 

[spiderweb]

My answer is "no." Here's my reasoning, visibility is 2 miles--not VFR for Class E, but OK for daytime Class G. Ceiling is 1,600 feet (remember, that's AGL, but it hardly matters at KESN), so the ceiling is legal for VFR in Class G or E, and not a factor here. The problem is that 'ol traffic pattern altitude. If you fly at 1,026 feet above MSL, you are now in the Class E. Since the visibility is only 2 miles, you are now not legal to fly VFR. You CANNOT fly VFR at 1,026 feet MSL, so you'd have to fly a traffic pattern below 700 feet MSL. (Don't confuse this with circling after an instrument approach.) I don't know what the local laws say, but I'd be willing to bet you'd get dinged on it if an inspector saw you do it, so my answer is "no," not because I have regulatory evidence for it, but because I have a bad feeling about it. . . .

Correct.

Assuming a rural (unpopulated) area surrounding the airport, and remaining in Class G airspace should be legal between 500' and 650' in the daytime. Now, the next question is whether the traffic pattern altitude is regulatory or not. And I think you need to consider both Federal regs and local laws, since some airports establish pattern altitude in their local codes.

Ron noted a case at my request in another thread where a pilot was violated for flying below 1000' in the pattern.

 

[wsuffa]

My answer is "no." Here's my reasoning, visibility is 2 miles--not VFR for Class E, but OK for daytime Class G. Ceiling is 1,600 feet (remember, that's AGL, but it hardly matters at KESN), so the ceiling is legal for VFR in Class G or E, and not a factor here. The problem is that 'ol traffic pattern altitude. If you fly at 1,026 feet above MSL, you are now in the Class E. Since the visibility is only 2 miles, you are now not legal to fly VFR. You CANNOT fly VFR at 1,026 feet MSL, so you'd have to fly a traffic pattern below 700 feet MSL. (Don't confuse this with circling after an instrument approach.) I don't know what the local laws say, but I'd be willing to bet you'd get dinged on it if an inspector saw you do it, so my answer is "no," not because I have regulatory evidence for it, but because I have a bad feeling about it. . . .

I was not suggesting that you or I do it. But assuming 1) it's rural enough to not get dinged for flying low enough to remain in Class G, and 2) there are no local regs to the contrary, you could legally do it. Note, legal is not necessarily safe.

This is not something I'd do.

bill