IFR ops in Class G

Sac Arrow

Sac Arrow

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This is a subject that came up during my last BFR.

Let's say you want to depart from an airport in Class G in IMC conditions, IFR, and continue IFR in controlled airspace. Not that it's necessarily a good idea, it's more of a procedural question. My understanding is that:

1.) You can conduct IFR ops, in IMC, in Class G airspace if you want to.

2.) You don't need and cannot get an IFR clearance in Class G airspace.

Assuming 1) and 2) are correct, what would you do? File a composite VFR/IFR flight plan? Get a pop-up clearance prior to entering Class E airspace?
 
I've gotten a clearance in class G on numerous occasions.
 
Sac Arrow said:
This is a subject that came up during my last BFR.

Let's say you want to depart from an airport in Class G in IMC conditions, IFR, and continue IFR in controlled airspace. Not that it's necessarily a good idea, it's more of a procedural question. My understanding is that:

1.) You can conduct IFR ops, in IMC, in Class G airspace if you want to.

2.) You don't need and cannot get an IFR clearance in Class G airspace.

Assuming 1) and 2) are correct, what would you do? File a composite VFR/IFR flight plan? Get a pop-up clearance prior to entering Class E airspace?
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Nothing wrong with your original plan at all. Completely legal and safe. Either get your clearance from ATC via a GCO or thru FSS via phone. You'll get a clearance void time and possibly a heading assignment upon entering controlled airspace. I've done it several times as a pilot and issued the clearance countless times as a controller. Just be aware of any ODPs for the airport or if it has at least one IAP with no ODP, use a diverse departure.

That being said. In most cases of VMC and light traffic, I just depart VFR and pick my clearance up in the air.
 
Sac Arrow said:
This is a subject that came up during my last BFR.

Let's say you want to depart from an airport in Class G in IMC conditions, IFR, and continue IFR in controlled airspace. Not that it's necessarily a good idea, it's more of a procedural question. My understanding is that:

1.) You can conduct IFR ops, in IMC, in Class G airspace if you want to.
Click to expand...

Correct.

2.) You don't need and cannot get an IFR clearance in Class G airspace.
Click to expand...

Correct.

Assuming 1) and 2) are correct, what would you do? File a composite VFR/IFR flight plan? Get a pop-up clearance prior to entering Class E airspace?
Click to expand...

File an IFR flight plan for the portion that is in controlled airspace. Most airports are in Class G airspace, even those with IAPs. Where Class E airspace begins at 1200' AGL or lower, departing an airport in IMC and trying to get a pop-up clearance prior to entering controlled airspace is a real bad plan. If the clearance isn't forthcoming you'll have to decide what FARs to bust. Either level off in Class G airspace in violation of FARs 91.177 and/or 91.179, or continue climbing into controlled airspace in violation of FAR 91.173.
 
Velocity173 said:
Nothing wrong with your original plan at all. Completely legal and safe. Either get your clearance from ATC via a GCO or thru FSS via phone. You'll get a clearance void time and possibly a heading assignment upon entering controlled airspace. I've done it several times as a pilot and issued the clearance countless times as a controller. Just be aware of any ODPs for the airport or if it has at least one IAP with no ODP, use a diverse departure.

That being said. In most cases of VMC and light traffic, I just depart VFR and pick my clearance up in the air.
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roncachamp said:
Correct.



Correct.



File an IFR flight plan for the portion that is in controlled airspace. Most airports are in Class G airspace, even those with IAPs. Where Class E airspace begins at 1200' AGL or lower, departing an airport in IMC and trying to get a pop-up clearance prior to entering controlled airspace is a real bad plan. If the clearance isn't forthcoming you'll have to decide what FARs to bust. Either level off in Class G airspace in violation of FARs 91.177 and/or 91.179, or continue climbing into controlled airspace in violation of FAR 91.173.
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Yeah that's a good point, now that I think about it I've done that myself (departed a Class G airport with a 700/1200 foot Class E floor) with a telephone clearance. I guess I was more thinking about remote airports in areas where Class G extends very high. Procedurally I guess it wouldn't make any difference.
 
UNcontrolled with (some) separation services.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Elucidate please. I don't even know what "F" is, considering that it doesn't exist in CONUS
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Some sort of ICAO uncontrolled airspace where IFR traffic separation is provided.
 
Only place I know of that uses class F (outside of SUA) is Germany. I'll have to go through some of my old pubs but I know of at least one private air strip that had an IAP. It was designated class F for the instrument approach but yet still considered uncontrolled air space. ATC sep was provided (not sure how much) for the guy doing the approach.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Elucidate please. I don't even know what "F" is, considering that it doesn't exist in CONUS
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When US airspace reclassification was being discussed twenty years ago I wondered why there was a gap in the lineup. So I did a bit of research to ascertain just what ICAO Class F airspace is.

Class F: Operations may be conducted under IFR or VFR. ATC separation will be provided, so far as practical, to aircraft operating under IFR. Traffic Information may be given as far as is practical in respect of other flights.
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Sounds like an IFR TRSA.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Let's say you want to depart from an airport in Class G in IMC conditions, IFR, and continue IFR in controlled airspace. Not that it's necessarily a good idea, it's more of a procedural question. My understanding is that:

1.) You can conduct IFR ops, in IMC, in Class G airspace if you want to.
Click to expand...
True to an extent, but there are a lot of regs with which you must comply, starting with 91.177 on minimum IFR altitudes, which in the case of most Class G airspace makes enroute IFR operations impossible. You'd need the floor of the overlying controlled airspace to be high enough to allow compliance with 91.177, and outside of those big brown areas on the L-charts covering Utah and Montana and the like, that doesn't exist.

2.) You don't need and cannot get an IFR clearance in Class G airspace.
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Correct as far as it goes, but you can get an IFR clearance to enter controlled airspace from the underlying Class G airspace.

Assuming 1) and 2) are correct, what would you do? File a composite VFR/IFR flight plan? Get a pop-up clearance prior to entering Class E airspace?
Click to expand...
Depends what you're trying to do. If you're departing an airport over which Class E airspace starts at 700 AGL, you just file IFR and obtain your IFR clearance normally -- they will issue a clearance to enter controlled airspace and continue to your destination. With that in hand, you just take off and climb up into the overlying controlled airspace. Since the overlying controlled airspace is so low, it's basically impossible from a practical standpoint to take off without a clearance in hand unless the weather is good enough to climb VFR to the base of radar coverage, not just the base of controlled airspace.

If you're departing an airport in one of those big brown spaces, then you can do what you want as long as you stay in the brown space/below the overlying controlled airspace, but if you need to enter controlled airspace, that will have to be coordinated and approved by ATC before you cross the line.
 
How about an example? Say one wanted to go from KJDN to 3U8. The entire distance is class G to 14500ft. The highest MOCA is 9300ft on a straight route. So, if one wanted to cruise at 10,000 ft IFR, how would one get such a clearance if he never leaves class G? Neither field has a published instrument approach.


Without such a clearance, wouldn't it be VFR and require being clear of clouds? So, how could one fly "however one wants" into IMC in class G? IMC is already pretty low standards there (1 mile visibility/clear of clouds) for VFR. But, I don't see how one can enter clouds legally en-route without an IFR clearance.
 
skidoo said:
How about an example? Say one wanted to go from KJDN to 3U8. The entire distance is class G to 14500ft. The highest MOCA is 9300ft on a straight route. So, if one wanted to cruise at 10,000 ft IFR, how would one get such a clearance if he never leaves class G?
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You don't. You take off, climb into the goo at a cruise altitude that meets 91.177(a)(2) and 91.179(b), and hope nobody else is doing the same thing...

Neither field has a published instrument approach.
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...and hope that on descent you are clear of the clouds before reaching the minimum altitude of 91.177(a)(2) because 91.175(a) says that's as low as you can go without an approved IAP.

Without such a clearance, wouldn't it be VFR and require being clear of clouds?
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No. A clearance is only required for IFR in controlled airspace. Outside controlled airspace, you're free to fly in the clouds without a clearance or flight plan so long as you comply with those rules I cited.

So, how could one fly "however one wants" into IMC in class G?
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Just as I described.

IMC is already pretty low standards there (1 mile visibility/clear of clouds) for VFR. But, I don't see how one can enter clouds legally en-route without an IFR clearance.
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There's no rule against doing that in uncontrolled (Class G) airspace so long as you comply with the flight rules cited and the equipment/certification rules in Subpart C of Part 91.
 
skidoo said:
How about an example? Say one wanted to go from KJDN to 3U8. The entire distance is class G to 14500ft. The highest MOCA is 9300ft on a straight route. So, if one wanted to cruise at 10,000 ft IFR, how would one get such a clearance if he never leaves class G? Neither field has a published instrument approach.


Without such a clearance, wouldn't it be VFR and require being clear of clouds? So, how could one fly "however one wants" into IMC in class G? IMC is already pretty low standards there (1 mile visibility/clear of clouds) for VFR. But, I don't see how one can enter clouds legally en-route without an IFR clearance.
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JDN GGW V430 HVR 3U8. Altitude 8,000. Get cleared for the VA over HVR. Since 3U8 has no IAPs, you'd be better off just going direct VFR.

Or just do what Ron said.
 
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skidoo said:
How about an example? Say one wanted to go from KJDN to 3U8. The entire distance is class G to 14500ft. The highest MOCA is 9300ft on a straight route. So, if one wanted to cruise at 10,000 ft IFR, how would one get such a clearance if he never leaves class G? Neither field has a published instrument approach.


Without such a clearance, wouldn't it be VFR and require being clear of clouds? So, how could one fly "however one wants" into IMC in class G? IMC is already pretty low standards there (1 mile visibility/clear of clouds) for VFR. But, I don't see how one can enter clouds legally en-route without an IFR clearance.
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It's technically legal but not necessarily prudent. It's also pretty much the only option for relatively short hops in IMC where controlled airspace starts at a high altitude.
 
Let's turn this around. Can we assume that an airport in Class G with an IAP has minimums that are above the Class E floor?
 
Sac Arrow said:
Let's turn this around. Can we assume that an airport in Class G with an IAP has minimums that are above the Class E floor?
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Are you referring to MDA / DH mins? Plenty of airports that have them located below the floor of Class E. I don't know of any that have a IAF or FAF below the E. It would be a bit difficult to vector in that case.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Let's turn this around. Can we assume that an airport in Class G with an IAP has minimums that are above the Class E floor?
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My local class G airport is a good example. It has MDA about 800 ft above the Class E floor. For one to see the field at that point, visibility would need to be at least 1 mile. So, effectively, it would have to be VFR minimums in the class G.
 
gismo said:
It's technically legal but not necessarily prudent. It's also pretty much the only option for relatively short hops in IMC where controlled airspace starts at a high altitude.
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So, you can be going along VFR clear of clouds and because you choose to enter some clouds Class G, you can just say you are now IFR? Or is it clear of clouds for VFR only rated pilots and IFR rated pilots get to choose?

OK, I still need to go back an read the referenced regs. Maybe that will clarify it...
 
Sac Arrow said:
Can we assume that an airport in Class G with an IAP has minimums that are above the Class E floor?
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No, it's not at all uncommon for an IAP to a class G airport to have a DA or MDA that's below the class E floor. LEW (372' AGL), B19 (523' AGL), SFM (200' AGL), BVY (473' AGL, class G at night), and many others. Just browse through a few random pages of an IAP volume, at least in the New England area, and you'll find some.
 
skidoo said:
So, you can be going along VFR clear of clouds and because you choose to enter some clouds Class G, you can just say you are now IFR? Or is it clear of clouds for VFR only rated pilots and IFR rated pilots get to choose?

OK, I still need to go back an read the referenced regs. Maybe that will clarify it...
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Yes, you should review the reference regs. You can start with 61.3(e) which requires an instrument rating for all IFR operations Then move to the Part 91 IFR rules beginning at 91.167.

As you read them, here's a key thing to keep in mind when reading them: The regs will tell you whether they apply to IFR generally or only in controlled airspace. Some of the rules say "under IFR" or "in IFR conditions" or similar language without mentioning the type of airspace.

As examples:

  • the VOR check reg, 91.171(a) starts with, "No person may operate a civil aircraft under IFR using the VOR system..."
  • OTOH, 91.183, in discussing the requirement to maintain communications with ATC, starts with, "Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, the pilot in command of each aircraft operated under IFR in controlled airspace..."

The IFR regs are actually pretty clear which apply to all IFR operations and which only apply in controlled airspace.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Yes, you should review the reference regs. You can start with 61.3(e) which requires an instrument rating for all IFR operations Then move to the Part 91 IFR rules beginning at 91.167.
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A non-instrument pilot only needs to know 61.3(e). That will keep them out of both IFR and IMC, so the 91.167 rules will not apply.
 
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skidoo said:
So, you can be going along VFR clear of clouds and because you choose to enter some clouds Class G, you can just say you are now IFR?
Click to expand...

As long as you can do so while staying within the requirements of all applicable regulations, yes. However, there isn't a lot of space where you can cruise at a constant altitude and alternate between VFR and IFR as you go in and out of clouds. The altitude must be one appropriate for IFR and VFR flight, that means a cardinal altitude correct for direction that's never more than 3000' above the surface. Where there's enough Class G airspace to consider this it also tends to be designated mountainous area, so the cruising altitude must also be not less than 2000' above the highest obstacle within four miles.

Of course, you don't have to declare yourself to be VFR when clear of clouds. You can stay IFR at an altitude more than 3000' above the surface in clear blue skies.
 
If IFR in G without a clearance what do you squawk?
 
roncachamp said:
:confused:
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I was referring to going to 3U8 from the earlier post. While flying west, you'd be an even altitude of 10,000 ft with at least a 2,000 ft clearance but could be below 2,500 ft above the surface, there is no need to turn on a transponder. Or if below 10,000 ft msl in Class G there's no requirement as well.

Actually now that I look at the JDN 3U8 scenario they are that high of altitude so you wouldn't even be at 10,000 msl. So, yeah while you should have your transponder on in Class G, it's not required.
 
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skidoo said:
So, you can be going along VFR clear of clouds and because you choose to enter some clouds Class G, you can just say you are now IFR?
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By definition, in that case, you are either operating under VFR illegally or operating under IFR. If IFR, the legality depends on several factors, not the least of which is possession of instrument privileges per 61.3(e).

Or is it clear of clouds for VFR only rated pilots and IFR rated pilots get to choose?
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Pilots without instrument privileges are limited to operating under VFR in VMC as defined by 91.155, or in some cases, under SVFR per 91.157. Either way, they must remain clear of clouds to be legal since VFR is not legal inside clouds in any airspace. Pilots with instrument privileges per 61.3(e) are permitted to operate under IFR in Class G airspace, including inside clouds. However, there is no legal way to operate in the clouds in any US airspace without instrument privileges per 61.3(e), whether you call it IFR or VFR.
 
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skidoo said:
So, you can be going along VFR clear of clouds and because you choose to enter some clouds Class G, you can just say you are now IFR?
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You don't have to say it; you only have to do it. That is, you have to follow the regulations that apply to IFR flights. In a printed copy of the regs, 91.167 through 91.193 appear under the heading of "Instrument Flight Rules." As has been pointed out, some of them specify "in controlled airspace" without stating any requirement for uncontrolled airspace. You can do this regardless of weather, i.e., in either IFR conditions or VFR conditions, so you don't have to be jumping around between VFR and IFR altitudes every time you enter or leave a cloud.

And of course, all of the above is conditioned upon the pilot and aircraft meeting the certifcation and currency requirements for IFR operations.
 
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Forgive me if I am missing something, but why an altitude that is never more than 3000' above the surface?

roncachamp said:
As long as you can do so while staying within the requirements of all applicable regulations, yes. However, there isn't a lot of space where you can cruise at a constant altitude and alternate between VFR and IFR as you go in and out of clouds. The altitude must be one appropriate for IFR and VFR flight, that means a cardinal altitude correct for direction that's never more than 3000' above the surface. Where there's enough Class G airspace to consider this it also tends to be designated mountainous area, so the cruising altitude must also be not less than 2000' above the highest obstacle within four miles.

Of course, you don't have to declare yourself to be VFR when clear of clouds. You can stay IFR at an altitude more than 3000' above the surface in clear blue skies.
Click to expand...
 
DanielH said:
Forgive me if I am missing something, but why an altitude that is never more than 3000' above the surface?
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I would point out that the "above 3000 AGL" rule applies only to VFR cruising altitudes. There is no such limitation in 91.179(b) for IFR cruising altitudes in uncontrolled airspace.
 
I guess I read the post wrong. I was thinking that IFR ops needed to be no higher than 3000' AGL in Class G, which didn't really make sense.
 
DanielH said:
I guess I read the post wrong. I was thinking that IFR ops needed to be no higher than 3000' AGL in Class G, which didn't really make sense.
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I think what Steven was getting at is that in order to alternate between VFR and IFR as you go in and out of clouds, you would have to be at an altitude that is appropriate for both VFR and IFR. Above 3000 AGL, there are no such altitudes because VFR altitudes are restricted to cardinal altitudes that are 500 feet different from the IFR cardinal altitudes. Below 3000 AGL, you could choose a cardinal altitude appropriate for IFR and it would also be okay for VFR.

This discussion seems like an exercise in FAR logic (insofar as that is not an oxymoron :D), as I can't think of any practical reason to operate IFR only when one is inside a cloud. ;)
 
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