IFR ops in Class G

Makes sense. Thank you!

azure said:
I think what Steven was getting at is that in order to alternate between VFR and IFR as you go in and out of clouds, you would have to be at an altitude that is appropriate for both VFR and IFR. Above 3000 AGL, there are no such altitudes because VFR altitudes are restricted to cardinal altitudes that are 500 feet different from the IFR cardinal altitudes. Below 3000 AGL, you could choose a cardinal altitude appropriate for IFR and it would also be okay for VFR.

This discussion seems like an exercise in FAR logic (insofar as that is not an oxymoron :D), as I can't think of any practical reason to operate IFR only when one is inside a cloud. ;)
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azure said:
I think what Steven was getting at is that in order to alternate between VFR and IFR as you go in and out of clouds, you would have to be at an altitude that is appropriate for both VFR and IFR. Above 3000 AGL, there are no such altitudes because VFR altitudes are restricted to cardinal altitudes that are 500 feet different from the IFR cardinal altitudes. Below 3000 AGL, you could choose a cardinal altitude appropriate for IFR and it would also be okay for VFR.

This discussion seems like an exercise in FAR logic (insofar as that is not an oxymoron :D), as I can't think of any practical reason to operate IFR only when one is inside a cloud. ;)
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Agreed. Since IFR flight is allowed in VFR conditions, a better solution would be to continue the flight under instrument flight rules after exiting the cloud. Then there would be no need to be at a VFR altitude.
 
DanielH said:
Forgive me if I am missing something, but why an altitude that is never more than 3000' above the surface?
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Because more than 3000' above the surface the hemispheric rule for VFR cruising altitudes comes into play.
 
azure said:
I think what Steven was getting at is that in order to alternate between VFR and IFR as you go in and out of clouds, you would have to be at an altitude that is appropriate for both VFR and IFR. Above 3000 AGL, there are no such altitudes because VFR altitudes are restricted to cardinal altitudes that are 500 feet different from the IFR cardinal altitudes. Below 3000 AGL, you could choose a cardinal altitude appropriate for IFR and it would also be okay for VFR.
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Bingo.
 
Dean V said:
Not entirely correct. You can be issued an IFR clearance in Class G, but you will not get IFR traffic separation until you enter controlled airspace. If you had to be in controlled airspace to obtain an IFR clearance in IMC, you could only depart from a Class B, C, D, or E airport.
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Understand my statement "cannot get an IFR clearance in Class G airspace" implied a clearance that would be valid within Class G airspace. Technically your clearance limit would begin upon entering controlled airspace.

(Correct?)
 
Sac Arrow said:
Understand my statement "cannot get an IFR clearance in Class G airspace" implied a clearance that would be valid within Class G airspace. Technically your clearance limit would begin upon entering controlled airspace.

(Correct?)
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What do you mean by a clearance limit beginning?
 
Sac Arrow said:
Understand my statement "cannot get an IFR clearance in Class G airspace" implied a clearance that would be valid within Class G airspace. Technically your clearance limit would begin upon entering controlled airspace.

(Correct?)
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Essentially, yes. The routing portion of the clearance from a Class G airport will generally start with, "upon entering controlled airspace..." or words to that effect.
 
I'm not saying it never happens, but I've never been given a clearance that began with "Upon entering controlled airspace..." :dunno:
 
Sac Arrow said:
In other words, is the clearance technically in effect while you are in Class G, or does it begin when you leave it?
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The clearance is in effect upon issuance unless the pilot has been told "hold for release." I think what you're asking is, does ATC provide any separation from other IFR traffic in the Class G airspace? The answer is both yes, and no.

Let's say you're departing from a field without a surface area where Class E airspace begins at 700' or 1200' AGL. You call for your IFR clearance, it's issued with a "hold for release" because of another aircraft departing or inbound to the field. You'll be released once the inbound has cancelled or the departure has opened up enough space. The effect is ATC provided separation between you and those other aircraft even though, by definition, ATC does not separate aircraft in Class G airspace.
 
Typical Class G clearance we issued:

P-Mooney 12345 requesting IFR from ARW to FLO.
C-How soon will you be off and which runway for departure?
P-Airborne in 10 minutes and runway 6.
C-Mooney 12345 is cleared to FLorence airport as filed, when entering controlled air space fly heading 060, climb and maintain 2,000, expect 7,000 10 minutes after departure, departure control frequency 125.125, sqk 5555. Clearance void if not off by 1510Z. If not off by 1510Z, contact Beaufort approach no later than 1540Z and advise of intentions. Time now 1459Z.

A hold for release can be given with an estimate departure delay or a released for departure with a time restriction. Usually no time restriction is necessary so a simple release for departure will suffice.

Once the aircraft is released, the airport is shutdown for any other IFR arrivals or departures. In this case with a 700 ft Class E floor, you won't have any other IFR aircraft legally operating IMC in Class G. Therefore separation is provided with any other IFR aircraft in the area.

Sometimes the aircraft can't make the clearance void time and shutdown and come all the way back to the FBO to call for another clearance. Or you have on rare ocassions they'll just depart after the void time still on that IFR SQK. While the clearance is void, all they would have to do is depart VFR (if wx allows) and pick it up in the air. The flight plan is still valid provided it hasn't time out. All approach does is have to reissue the clearance again.
 
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Palmpilot said:
I'm not saying it never happens, but I've never been given a clearance that began with "Upon entering controlled airspace..." :dunno:
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Huh. Every clearance I've copied from clearance delivery on the ground at an uncontrolled airport in the vicinity of a controlled airport has included that phrase, usually preceding a heading assignment ("Upon entering controlled airspace, turn right heading 360")
 
ChrisK said:
Huh. Every clearance I've copied from clearance delivery on the ground at an uncontrolled airport in the vicinity of a controlled airport has included that phrase, usually preceding a heading assignment ("Upon entering controlled airspace, turn right heading 360")
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I have the impression that controllers in different parts of the country do things differently.
 
Velocity173 said:
Typical Class G clearance we issued:

P-Mooney 12345 requesting IFR from ARW to FLO.
C-How soon will you be off and which runway for departure?
P-Airborne in 10 minutes and runway 6.
C-Mooney 12345 is cleared to FLorence airport as filed, when entering controlled air space fly heading 060, climb and maintain 2,000, expect 7,000 10 minutes after departure, departure control frequency 125.125, sqk 5555. Clearance void if not off by 1510Z. If not off by 1510Z, contact Beaufort approach no later than 1540Z and advise of intentions. Time now 1459Z.

A hold for release can be given with an estimate departure delay or a released for departure with a time time restriction. Usually no time restriction is necessary so a simple release for departure will suffice.

Once the aircraft is released, the airport is shutdown for any other IFR arrivals or departures. In this case with a 700 ft Class E floor, you won't have any other IFR aircraft legally operating IMC in Class G. Therefore separation is provided with any other IFR aircraft in the area.

Sometimes the aircraft can't make the clearance void time and shutdown and come all the way back to the FBO to call for another clearance. Or you have on rare ocassions they'll just depart after the void time still on that IFR SQK. While the clearance is void, all they would have to do is depart VFR (if wx allows) and pick it up in the air. The flight plan is still valid provided it hasn't time out. All approach does is have to reissue the clearance again.
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...wait....can you gimme a minute:yikes:
 
Dean V said:
There is no ifr traffic clearance in Class G.
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Correct, and to my knowledge nobody said otherwise.

When holding for release within Class G at the surface, the controller is assuring there are no IFR conflicts in the controlled airspace above. (700/1200 ft in your example).
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It also assures you won't encounter another aircraft with an IFR clearance in the Class G airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
When US airspace reclassification was being discussed twenty years ago I wondered why there was a gap in the lineup. So I did a bit of research to ascertain just what ICAO Class F airspace is.



Sounds like an IFR TRSA.
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I am still wrecking my mind about the airspace changes as of Sept of 92 or 93. But I thought that the old terminal radar service area roughly adds up to class B. And that arsa roughly is equivalent to class C. Am I wrong?


Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 
Whoops! TCA is b. I had the old ones flipped all around. Its been 20 years and I was like 16 back then. Sucked because I had to learn airspace twice in a year.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not saying it never happens, but I've never been given a clearance that began with "Upon entering controlled airspace..." :dunno:
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Interesting. I've received them as a standard part of void time clearances in the northeast and in the Great Plains - the only places I've received clearances out of Class G fields. Guess I'll have to try it more often.

I checked and the phrase is not part of the Controller's Handbook (but see edit below). OTOH it is discussed in the FAA's Instrument Flying Handbook:

==============================
The majority of airports with instrument approaches do not lie within terminal radar airspace and, when operating to or from these airports, pilots communicate directly with the Center controller. Departing from a tower-controlled airport, the tower controller provides instructions for contacting the appropriate Center controller. When departing an airport without an operating control tower, the clearance includes instructions such as “Upon entering controlled airspace, contact Houston Center on 126.5.”
==============================

Edit:

While the phrasing doesn't appear as an example in the ATC Handbook, the principle does:

==============================
4-3-2(c)(1)(c) At all other airports- Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to specify an initial heading/azimuth to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading/azimuth so as to apply only within controlled airspace.
==============================

(c)(1)(a) and (c)(1)(b) refer to ATC-serviced airports and class E surface areasa.
 
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You won't see that phraseology in the .65 because it's "WHEN ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE." Refer 4-3-2

However I'm sure there are plenty of controllers that say "upon."
 
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Velocity173 said:
You won't see that phraseology in the .65 because it's "WHEN ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE." Refer 4-3-2

However I'm sure there are plenty of controllers that say "upon."
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Thanks for that reference. In the section where that example phraseology appears, I see the following:

(c) At all other airports− Do not specify
direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to
specify an initial heading/azimuth to be flown after
takeoff, issue the initial heading/azimuth so as to
apply only within controlled airspace.​

(From the context, "all other airports" refers to airports with no tower or class E surface area.)

That paragraph probably explains why I have never heard that phrase in a clearance, because I don't think I have ever been given an "initial heading/azimuth to be flown after takeoff" at an uncontrolled airport. I suppose that's because there was not enough traffic to make it necessary.
 
Why would you operate between 2 airports where neither of them have IAPs & are in Class G enroute???

Is this scenrio really that common? Maybe I live a sheltered life here in the DC area.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Interesting. I've received them as a standard part of void time clearances in the northeast and in the Great Plains - the only places I've received clearances out of Class G fields. Guess I'll have to try it more often.
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When you receive these clearances, what typically comes immediately after "upon entering controlled airspace"?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Why would you operate between 2 airports where neither of them have IAPs & are in Class G enroute???

Is this scenrio really that common? Maybe I live a sheltered life here in the DC area.
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The areas where this issue comes up are remote - little traffic and airspace where Class G extends well above 1200 AGL. They are few and far between, mostly in the mountain west, and the northeast corridor hardly qualifies.

I've never gone airport to airport, but I have flown below VFR minimums (and even through clouds) en route in Class G airspace.
 
Velocity173 said:
You won't see that phraseology in the .65 because it's "WHEN ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE." Refer 4-3-2

However I'm sure there are plenty of controllers that say "upon."
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Thank you. Bad searched yield bad results. Of course, since I found the phrase in the Instrument handbook, I didn't think of trying a different version.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Why would you operate between 2 airports where neither of them have IAPs & are in Class G enroute???
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Because you want to get from one to the other and the weather somewhere along the route is less than VMC?

Is this scenrio really that common? Maybe I live a sheltered life here in the DC area.
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I can't say how often anyone does this, but there aren't many airport pairs in the country where you can do it. I've found two airports in the brown area under the Owyhee MOA where in theory you can do it, but it's not easy to work out due to terrain and the overlying MOA's.
 
Ron Levy said:
I can't say how often anyone does this, but there aren't many airport pairs in the country where you can do it. I've found two airports in the brown area under the Owyhee MOA where in theory you can do it, but it's not easy to work out due to terrain and the overlying MOA's.
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The MOAs are not an impediment.
 
Maybe it's more common in Alaska.
 
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